What would you think of a pastor who used the pulpit to call an outside critic a 'moron?'

[justme6272]

The major church ministry this Christmas is to single moms in the city. The pastor decided to share some of the emails the church had received from people who knew about the effort, but were cynical. One man said, "How about single dads?" Another said, "You just want to get their money," presumably meaning, 'you just want to get them attending the church so they'll give regularly to the offering.'

The pastor then offered up to the congregation what he would have LIKED to have told the 2nd person....."THEY DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY...(pause).....YOU MORON!" and the place busted out in laughter.

I would describe it as a smaller church, with a pastor that has an above average sense of humor, always trying to be funny at some point in most sermons. At such times, I usually am first and loudest to laugh, but didn't laugh this time. I was tired, not having had enough sleep, plus it wasn't funny to me.

Most churches I've been in are much larger, and I can't imagine their pastors even mentioning apparent outsider hate email from the pulpit, much less resorting to name calling. Such outsiders must have been people at home who watch live over the Internet, or follow on social media. No one in attendance would have been the people being critical via email.

Do you think the pastor was out of line, or would you just chalk it up to human nature? He may have been using the congregation to vent frustrations. But still.....

P.S. - I wouldn't have put it past the pastor to have completely made up both stories. There is another instance in which I think he was lying to me about the issue of who exactly gets and reads the email that goes to the church's main 'info' email address. Unlike some much larger churches in town that I know of, they won't put the pastor email addresses and photos on their staff web page.

 

[Sketcher]

I would have laughed too, TBH. But I'm not sure why reading hate mail is appropriate. Why not focus on the results of the ministry so far, have everyone applaud (which they will), and move on to further promote the charity?

 

[jacks]

Sounds more insulting than funny to me, but that is a risk you take when you try to be witty. We all make mistakes even pastors. I wouldn't think too much about it, like you said "human nature", unless it becomes a habit of his.

 

[justme6272]

I would have laughed too, TBH. But I'm not sure why reading hate mail is appropriate. Why not focus on the results of the ministry so far, have everyone applaud (which they will), and move on to further promote the charity?

They did exactly that. A small fortune has been raised....tens of thousands of dollars, which is HUGE for a church that size. It doesn't happen until December so no results yet. They don't have any idea how many single moms will come to the event that is scheduled across three nights. I suspect weather may have a lot to do with it. Like right now, it's so cold it probably wouldn't go past one night due to low turnout. They aren't committed to doing all three nights if the first night is slow. Which means they'll have a lot of cash on hand to do other things.

 

[SkyWriting]

The major church ministry this Christmas is to single moms in the city. The pastor decided to share some of the emails the church had received from people who knew about the effort, but were cynical. One man said, "How about single dads?" Another said, "You just want to get their money," presumably meaning, 'you just want to get them attending the church so they'll give regularly to the offering.'

The pastor then offered up to the congregation what he would have LIKED to have told the person....."THEY DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY...(pause).....YOU MORON!" and the place busted out in laughter.

I would describe it as a smaller church, with a pastor that has an above average sense of humor, always trying to be funny at some point in most sermons. At such times, I usually am first and loudest to laugh, but didn't laugh this time. I was tired, not having had enough sleep, plus it wasn't funny to me.

Most churches I've been in are much larger, and I can't imagine their pastors even mentioning apparent outsider hate email from the pulpit, much less resorting to name calling. Such outsiders must have been people at home who watch live over the Internet, or follow on social media. No one in attendance would have been the people being critical via email.

Do you think the pastor was out of line, or would you just chalk it up to human nature. He may have been using the congregation to vent frustrations. But still.....

Sure, I'd forgive him.

 

[tturt]

So glad my husband isn't a minister.

 

[aiki]

The pastor then offered up to the congregation what he would have LIKED to have told the person....."THEY DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY...(pause).....YOU MORON!" and the place busted out in laughter.

Colossians 4:6
6 Let your speech always be with grace...

2 Timothy 2:24-25
And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, in humility correcting those who are in opposition...

James 3:17
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits...

Most churches I've been in are much larger, and I can't imagine their pastors even mentioning apparent outsider hate email from the pulpit, much less resorting to name calling.

Indeed. But not name calling from the pulpit shouldn't have anything to do with the size of a church but with the command of Scripture forbidding such bad behaviour.

Do you think the pastor was out of line, or would you just chalk it up to human nature.

Both. He sinned in calling his opponent a moron (and doing so from the pulpit). He did so because he is human and prone - as we all are - to foolish and wicked speech.

Ephesians 4:29
29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.

 

[topher694]

Jesus called his critics and accusors worse. Heck he called Peter worse.

Yeah we are to treat others gently and watch our tongue, but there are plenty of scriptures that actually tell leaders to deal pretty harshly with those whose sole purpose is to stir up decent and not just privately, but to publically make it known.

The key is to know where the line between the two is and be mindful of it.

 

[Paidiske]

Mmm. I wouldn't do it, but... I can sorta see where you could give him some wiggle room on that one. I do think there's a difference between telling someone they're a moron, and later, saying to others that you would have liked to say that. The latter can be more about putting your sense of frustration into words than real meanness about someone else.

Whether that's an appropriate thing to do in a sermon is a whole other question, though.

 

[Redwingfan9]

The major church ministry this Christmas is to single moms in the city. The pastor decided to share some of the emails the church had received from people who knew about the effort, but were cynical. One man said, "How about single dads?" Another said, "You just want to get their money," presumably meaning, 'you just want to get them attending the church so they'll give regularly to the offering.'

The pastor then offered up to the congregation what he would have LIKED to have told the person....."THEY DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY...(pause).....YOU MORON!" and the place busted out in laughter.

I would describe it as a smaller church, with a pastor that has an above average sense of humor, always trying to be funny at some point in most sermons. At such times, I usually am first and loudest to laugh, but didn't laugh this time. I was tired, not having had enough sleep, plus it wasn't funny to me.

Most churches I've been in are much larger, and I can't imagine their pastors even mentioning apparent outsider hate email from the pulpit, much less resorting to name calling. Such outsiders must have been people at home who watch live over the Internet, or follow on social media. No one in attendance would have been the people being critical via email.

Do you think the pastor was out of line, or would you just chalk it up to human nature. He may have been using the congregation to vent frustrations. But still.....

P.S. - I wouldn't have put it past the pastor to have completely made up both stories. There is another instance in which I think he was lying to me about the issue of who exactly gets and reads the email that goes to the church's main 'info' email address. Unlike much larger churches in town that I know of, they won't put the pastor email addresses and photos on their web site.

The pulpit isn't the place for jokes or humor. The pulpit is the place for sober minded teaching of Biblical theology and to present the truth of Christ. That this pastor called someone a moron isn't the problem. The problem is that the pastor believes comedy is part of preaching.

 

[topher694]

The pulpit isn't the place for jokes or humor. The pulpit is the place for sober minded teaching of Biblical theology and to present the truth of Christ. That this pastor called someone a moron isn't the problem. The problem is that the pastor believes comedy is part of preaching.

That's funny

 

[aiki]

Jesus called his critics and accusors worse. Heck he called Peter worse.

And he did so to them directly, not from a pulpit. Read Matthew 18:15-17. If you have a problem with a fellow believer, talk to him/her directly, don't use the pulpit for such things.

Yeah we are to treat others gently and watch our tongue, but there are plenty of scriptures that actually tell leaders to deal pretty harshly with those whose sole purpose is to stir up decent and not just privately, but to publically make it known.

Making a private grievance public only ought to happen after the first two steps outlined in Matthew 18 have been taken.

The key is to know where the line between the two is and be mindful of it.

The Bible is pretty clear about how to deal with someone with whom you have a particular beef. See above.

 

[topher694]

And he did so to them directly, not from a pulpit. Read Matthew 18:15-17. If you have a problem with a fellow believer, talk to him/her directly, don't use the pulpit for such things.

A. You don't know that didn't happen
B. That is not always true, see Matthew 16:6, in those days that would have been a bigger insult than "Moron"

Making a private grievance public only ought to happen after the first two steps outlined in Matthew 18 have been taken.

And when a public grievance is made anonymously, then what? Sit back and take it? Jesus and Paul both allowed for addressing such things and addressing them publicly. Jesus, Paul and Peter all called people directly, or indirectly fools. Including those who criticized them from a safe distance. We don't even know if the one criticizing is even a brother/sister in Christ, Matt 18 is about brothers and sisters in Christ.

The Bible is pretty clear about how to deal with someone with whom you have a particular beef. See above.

See above. Bible is also pretty clear that a shepherd is judged on how he protects the sheep. Rebuking attacks made against a program the entire church is participating in is protecting the entire church. Did he need to use that language, no. But, he wasn't wrong either, just unwise in my opinion only because it leads to reactions like this which are a waste of time.

 

[eleos1954]

The major church ministry this Christmas is to single moms in the city. The pastor decided to share some of the emails the church had received from people who knew about the effort, but were cynical. One man said, "How about single dads?" Another said, "You just want to get their money," presumably meaning, 'you just want to get them attending the church so they'll give regularly to the offering.'

The pastor then offered up to the congregation what he would have LIKED to have told the person....."THEY DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY...(pause).....YOU MORON!" and the place busted out in laughter.

I would describe it as a smaller church, with a pastor that has an above average sense of humor, always trying to be funny at some point in most sermons. At such times, I usually am first and loudest to laugh, but didn't laugh this time. I was tired, not having had enough sleep, plus it wasn't funny to me.

Most churches I've been in are much larger, and I can't imagine their pastors even mentioning apparent outsider hate email from the pulpit, much less resorting to name calling. Such outsiders must have been people at home who watch live over the Internet, or follow on social media. No one in attendance would have been the people being critical via email.

Do you think the pastor was out of line, or would you just chalk it up to human nature. He may have been using the congregation to vent frustrations. But still.....

P.S. - I wouldn't have put it past the pastor to have completely made up both stories. There is another instance in which I think he was lying to me about the issue of who exactly gets and reads the email that goes to the church's main 'info' email address. Unlike much larger churches in town that I know of, they won't put the pastor email addresses and photos on their web site.

moron means stupid .... and stupid means ...
having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense

moron ... not ... a good choice of word used by the pastor ... in a sense the pastor was caught being stupid ;o)

 

[aiki]

A. You don't know that didn't happen

And you don't know that it did.

B. That is not always true, see Matthew 16:6, in those days that would have been a bigger insult than "Moron"

Kinda' grasping at straws here a bit. I don't think "beware the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees" is on par with calling someone a moron.

And when a public grievance is made anonymously, then what? Sit back and take it?

And why not? To what does godly love constrain the believer? Have you read 1 Corinthians 13:4-7? Was Christ's example to give as good as he got when personally attacked? There'd have been no crucifixion if this was his modus operandi.

Jesus and Paul both allowed for addressing such things and addressing them publicly.

Oh? Where, exactly, do either of them say, "If you're attacked personally, fight back. Give as good as you've got"? I recall Jesus saying something very different:

Matthew 5:38-39
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’
39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Jesus, Paul and Peter all called people directly, or indirectly fools. Including those who criticized them from a safe distance.

References, please. And generic statements about foolishness aren't parallel to what the OP's pastor did.

We don't even know if the one criticizing is even a brother/sister in Christ, Matt 18 is about brothers and sisters in Christ.

So, the gloves come off when it isn't a fellow believer? Where do you see that taught in Scripture?

See above. Bible is also pretty clear that a shepherd is judged on how he protects the sheep.

The pastor's remark was not in protection of his flock but of himself. And in his remark he set a bad example while ignoring the good example of Christ.

Rebuking attacks made against a program the entire church is participating in is protecting the entire church.

No, it's not. It is a pastor not knowing how to properly - biblically - answer criticisms of a ministry he has promoted and with which, as a result, people may strongly identify him. Smacks of insecurity, to me.

That the entire church has bought into the "ministry" does not make it something the church ought to be doing. Many churches have invested in all sorts of "ministries" for which they had no clear leading from God, nor any solid biblical grounding. Pastors who are aware that this is true of their ministries - especially the ones they've enthusiastically promoted - can be inordinately defensive about them.

Did he need to use that language, no. But, he wasn't wrong either, just unwise in my opinion only because it leads to reactions like this which are a waste of time.

I disagree. And it is easy to demonstrate from Scripture (which I have already done in earlier posts) why I do. Of any believer, one in the position of pastor must be extremely careful of his speech - especially in the pulpit. There is not the "wiggle room" for a pastor in this regard that there might be for others. So it is Paul wrote to Timothy, a pastor-in-training:

Titus 2:7-8
7 in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility,
8 sound speech that cannot be condemned, that one who is an opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you.

By the way, you seem very eager to contend over reactions you think are a "waste of time." Do you often embroil yourself in matters you think are time wasters?

 

[carp614]

Interesting and instructive that the poll points to a specific answer and the story pointed the other way. Seems fine in context.

 

[Albion]

Given that he announced it as a joke when saying the word, he did not name the person in question, and because it's a rather mild insult these days that no one takes literally, I would say to let it pass. If, however, he were to indulge in that kind of joking or use such figures of speech routinely, that could be a cause for concern.

 

[topher694]

And you don't know that it did.

So you want to work from the assumption of guilty until proven innocent, fine, doesn't sound like a pattern of good works for you

Kinda' grasping at straws here a bit. I don't think "beware the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees" is on par with calling someone a moron.

You're right, it's not on par, it was worse.


As to the rest of it, it's just a bunch of justifications and misrepresentations of what I said, and I'm not going to waste my time on it, especially today. Titus 3 also tells us to avoid foolish disputes, and in my opinion this qualifies.

Yes we are to treat people with dignity and respect, absolutely. But being a pastor or leader doesn't mean being a punching bag. If this person anonymously accused him and his church of attempting to exploit single mothers for financial gain, that is a awful, baseless allegation and that person is a moron, I wouldn't say it from the pulpit myself, but if you had any idea how much total rubbish pastors get accused of that you never ever hear about, but respond just once and look out! It's remarkable how many people who know nothing of what it takes to lead a church or stand behind a pulpit are experts at it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Most churches I've been in are much larger, and I can't imagine their pastors even mentioning apparent outsider h&&& email from the pulpit

I think calling that h&&& email is politically and socially correct, but not proper for Ekklesia to go along with .... (I think that is a societal/ politic standard/ term to use, not Scriptural).
It might have been a made up story also, as commonly is the case from pulpits.
And it is not even very offensive nor harsh at all....

 

[Paidiske]

The pulpit isn't the place for jokes or humor. The pulpit is the place for sober minded teaching of Biblical theology and to present the truth of Christ. That this pastor called someone a moron isn't the problem. The problem is that the pastor believes comedy is part of preaching.

Do you preach?

Humour can be a very effective way of making a very serious point. Also, if one preaches for a long time without any change in mood or tone, people's attention drifts; but allowing for lighter moments and remarks helps keep them engaged.

The acceptability of the word "moron" from the pulpit might be debatable, but that there is a place for humour in preaching is, I would have said, a given.