What would you do for unity?

[Monk Brendan]

I confirmed this with Catholics I know...

I can confirm it is a joke, and a rather crude on. I know several jokes about Protestants, some of them VERY impious. Do you want me to list those?

And how many Catholics do you know that go to Mass every Sunday, that are pious, believers, and will crack wise like that. Or are they EX-Catholics, putting down the Church that they left? And if they come back to the Catholic Church will they say nasty things about YOUR church?

 

[Monk Brendan]

Not so. I said that having a substitution for Christ is not the same as the real thing when the real thing is available. But your answer got me thinking that it's a heart thing.

Glory to God! Maybe thinking about a non-Protestant being a Christian is a good thing. It might even be the Holy Spirit!

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Glory to God! Maybe thinking about a non-Protestant being a Christian is a good thing. It might even be the Holy Spirit!

Conferred by God of course. ;p

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Monk Brendon your HS leading shines thru your being that is obvious but going to God is enough. Teaching otherwise can lead astray.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Not so. I said that having a substitution for Christ is not the same as the real thing when the real thing is available. But your answer got me thinking that it's a heart thing.

That's what a wise grey haired woman once told me - "Jeff, be not worried about trying to convince by talking, they need a NEW HEART"
and then at once there was GOD'S PEACE, PEACE was at once over the situation ! God grant us all a new and obedient heart, cleanse us with hyssop so we will be white as snow, create in us a clean heart ! and a new and a right spirit within us all ! Amen!

 

[Monk Brendan]

Conferred by God of course. ;p

Go ahead and stick your tongue out at me! I am presenting facts and my beliefs.

And I notice that no one is taking up that challenge that I posted about the Scriptural authenticity of

Adult Baptism
Testimonies
Altar Calls
Invitation Hymns
The Holy Spirit always coming with the evidence of Tongues. My first experience with the Holy Spirit was prophecy, and not tongues, so that one is blown right there!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And I notice that no one is taking up that challenge that I posted about the Scriptural authenticity of

"Monk Brendan said: ↑
Adult Baptism
Testimonies"

We overcome by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB, and the word of our TESTIMONY.

As for Yochanan the immerser's practice, and Yeshua's, and all the Apostles and disciples practice,
I'm pretty sure they all had no problem with immersing adults.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

There is NO teaching of the Catholic Churches that define Mary as Co-Redempterist!
And you will not be able to find it!--using Official Catholic books of Doctrine, that is. Father So and So's Little Book of Treasures from the Church is NOT Catholic Doctrine.

This is copied from the catechism found at Vatican.va
Catechism of the Catholic Church - Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

This is in direct violation of scripture...

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


From catechism 971...
"The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."

Here we read that devotion to Mary is intrinsic to worship... what does the Bible say about worship?

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:


Luke 4:8
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Acts 7:41,42
And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven;

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Okay! So let's get on with it. Most Protestants claim that we bow down and worship statues. WE DO NOT! Most Protestants have a problem with Mary, the Mother of Jesus. We keep her to the forefront, because she was the FIRST one to accept God's grace, no matter what; we refer to her as Theotokos (Mother of God) because we believe that since Jesus is God, and was God at His birth, she should be allowed a little bit more mention than the Protestants give her. You only trot her out on Christmas Eve, and then she goes back into her box until the next December 24.
We do not WORSHIP icons, either. They are the windows into heaven, where we can mystically glimpse God's Glory, or the Theotokos pointing to her son, etc.

We are also not acting like cannibals when we partake of the Eucharist. It is a mystical feast, a bloodless sacrifice. We confess to a priest because when he is hearing my confession, he is acting in Persona Christi--as if Christ was also standing in front of me. And He is, and forgiveness flows from Christ through the priest to me. We baptize infants because, as good parents, we want our children to have the full protection of God. We also Seal him with the Holy Spirit at the same time, and for the same reason. In Eastern Christian Churches, we also bring the child up to Communion from the day he is baptized, so that from that day on, the child can truly be raised AS A CHRISTIAN, because he IS a Christian. Because he is a child, we don't lay any burdens on him that he has to conform to.

We also raise our children to be good Christians, and we don't make them beg for cleansing and baptism as adults. ANY parent who does NOT do these things is playing with a loaded gun, HOPING the child won't go off the rails until that mythical "Age of Responsibility."

Shall I go on? There are all of the myths that Pre-Reformation Churches made all sorts of evil, and that the Pope is (ALWAYS) the anti-Christ. and the Catholic Church is behind the Masons, Shriners, Illuminati, the Priory of Sion and all the other myths that have been spun BY REFORMERS!

I haven't even begun on Protestant churches, yet. Why don't you start finding Scriptural reasons for:
Adult Baptism
Testimonies
Altar Calls
Invitation Hymns
The Holy Spirit always coming with the evidence of Tongues. My first experience with the Holy Spirit was prophecy, and not tongues, so that one is blown right there!

Okay, for the fourth time, the one question I asked of you was this.

Now answer me a question. What tradition not recorded in scripture is required for salvation? Another question the Catholic and Orthodox have failed to answer.

For some reason you are avoiding that question but still respond at length.

About your other topic, despite your claim to knowing Protestants, many have some of the same traditions you mention in the Catholic Church. My point of contention is not against having traditions, they are not intrinsically bad; my contention is that salvation and unquestionable truth is in traditions not recorded in scripture. I did start a whole thread on the subject.

Catholics and others insist that their traditions are important for their faith. They have even called them necessary. They point to John 21:25 and say that not all that Jesus said was recorded. Further they point to 1 Corinthians 11:2 and show that the apostle Paul taught traditions passed down.

John 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

1 Corinthians 11:2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.
​

So on point 1 that not everything Jesus said was recorded, I certainly agree. I don't think books recorded every word that any person spoke. What does this prove?

On point 2, before printings were available to the masses, everything would have to be passed along with word of mouth, aka traditions; although people still wrote letters.


That was then, now we have the Bible, aka scripture, God's recorded word. We also have many educated people that can read mass produced copies of scripture. We no longer rely on word of mouth for communication. Books and electronic media can spread God's word so much more efficiently and without the errors that get transferred when you play "telephone".

Further the churches that believe in traditions have now written them down in their doctrine so that it no longer has to be passed down orally. It should be possible to compare the doctrines of salvation with scripture.

So my question is:

Are there any doctrine/teaching that
1) originate with Jesus speaking in his earthly life,
2) that were passed down through the apostles
3) that is necessary for salvation
4) and is not also recorded in scripture?​

I can find lots more evidences of the non-Scriptural behavior of the Reformers NOT following God's Word, but making up their own TRADITIONS!

I agree, and as I stated, left the Lutheran Church because of their teachings/traditions that I could not reconcile with scripture. At least they pretend to profess scripture over traditions though.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Do you think I am stupid? Don't you think that I had that one figured out by the time I was 6?

I thought you stated to have grown up Protestant?

 

[Monk Brendan]

Now answer me a question. What tradition not recorded in scripture is required for salvation? Another question the Catholic and Orthodox have failed to answer.

How about Baptismal Regeneration? It is not specifically mentioned in Scripture, yet without it, we would continue lost in our sin.

However, you have yet to answer me about the "TRADITIONS" that you blindly follow, none of which are Scriptural. For instance, what about the tradition of man that invokes an invitation hymn. What about altar calls? Where are they found in the Bible?

Where in the Bible does it say, "age of accountability?"

Matthew 26:29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

And how does this prove that the Pre-Reformation idea of the Eucharist is wrong? Show me what Scripture where Jesus says anything like, "This is my body doesn't really mean that this is my body?"

 

[Monk Brendan]

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

This says NOTHING about her being Co-Redemtrix. I will admit that the language is rather florid, and Mary is painted as being just one step below God. But Marian doctrine is not something to be discussed near people that doon't believe that her Son is God. So that is it!

 

[Monk Brendan]

I thought you stated to have grown up Protestant?

NO! I was baptized on July 1, 1951. That is just a few days AFTER I was born.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

However, you have yet to answer me about the "TRADITIONS" that you blindly follow, none of which are Scriptural. For instance, what about the tradition of man that invokes an invitation hymn. What about altar calls? Where are they found in the Bible?

Well they aren't.... but they are not required for a worship service unlike the traditions of the Catholic/Orthodox faith. Shaking of hands with fellow believers while entering or leaving church is often customary (tradition) but hardly liturgical. Same as our "tradition" of having potluck after service.

And how does this prove that the Pre-Reformation idea of the Eucharist is wrong? Show me what Scripture where Jesus says anything like, "This is my body doesn't really mean that this is my body?"

In John 6, we read Jesus explaining the means of salvation, of receiving life, in a metaphor of eating bread and then later in the chapter, of his actual flesh and blood, which most of the apostles misunderstood. Jesus then explains the meaning of it in verse 63

It is the spirit that quickeneth (gives life); the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The bread, the flesh and the blood all symbolize the Word of God... to eat is to read, study, internalize and to nourish through the Spirit and make whole by the Truth.

 

[Monk Brendan]

DP

 

[Monk Brendan]

Well they aren't.... but they are not required for a worship service unlike the traditions of the Catholic/Orthodox faith. Shaking of hands with fellow believers while entering or leaving church is often customary (tradition) but hardly liturgical. Same as our "tradition" of having potluck after service.

I didn't say one blessed thing about potlucks or shaking hands, so stop trivializing.

In John 6, we read Jesus explaining the means of salvation, of receiving life, in a metaphor of eating bread and then later in the chapter, of his actual flesh and blood, which most of the apostles misunderstood. Jesus then explains the meaning of it in verse 63

It is the spirit that quickeneth (gives life); the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Is that why He was Crucified in the Flesh, and then rose from the dead in the flesh?

The bread, the flesh and the blood all symbolize the Word of God... to eat is to read, study, internalize and to nourish through the Spirit and make whole by the Truth.

Why is it, when Christians sit down to discuss and study the Bible, one faction goes totally anti-Catholic and says that anything that has to do with Jesus' Body being Real food, or His Blood being Real drink, it MUST BE taken as symbolic, but the dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant, or the shape of the Cross MUST be exact! That is doublethink and doubletalk.

If it is hard for you to believe, then you're in the majority. John 6:60-64 says. "Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not.

Then only His Apostles were left, and the rest of the truth is this:
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Well they aren't.... but they are not required for a worship service unlike the traditions of the Catholic/Orthodox faith. Shaking of hands with fellow believers while entering or leaving church is often customary (tradition) but hardly liturgical. Same as our "tradition" of having potluck after service.

DON'T TRIVIALIZE. The Eucharist is not about a potluck and shaking hands, and I find it repugnant that you would bring the Eucharist down to such levels! At least apologize to Jesus (and all of the Catholics and Orthodox Christians on this forum.)

In John 6, we read Jesus explaining the means of salvation, of receiving life, in a metaphor of eating bread and then later in the chapter, of his actual flesh and blood, which most of the apostles misunderstood. Jesus then explains the meaning of it in verse 63

It is the spirit that quickeneth (gives life); the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Was Jesus only spiritually Crucified? Did He only Spiritually rise from the dead? NO! He suffered the pain, the embarrassment, the actual death, and, once He had preached the Word to Hell, He rose, in the flesh.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Well they aren't.... but they are not required for a worship service unlike the traditions of the Catholic/Orthodox faith. Shaking of hands with fellow believers while entering or leaving church is often customary (tradition) but hardly liturgical. Same as our "tradition" of having potluck after service.

Excellent point.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

When the seventy went away because they couldn't understand having to eat Christ's flesh literally or drink His blood literally, why didn't the twelve left then proceed to cannibalize Jesus as He supposed commanded them? Maybe because they understood what Jesus explained in verse 63 was symbolism, an analogy... a metaphor even? It's not like the Bible isn't rife with examples of symbolic language being used, especially by our Saviour. Not a stretch in the slightest to conclude that...

What is wresting scripture is believing that Christ's one time death and sacrifice wasn't sufficient and that it must be performed over and over and over, ad nauseum, at the hands of man... sounds to me like the enemy exalting himself for killing the Son of God and wanting it repeated to wound God's heart.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

DON'T TRIVIALIZE. The Eucharist is not about a potluck and shaking hands, and I find it repugnant that you would bring the Eucharist down to such levels! At least apologize to Jesus (and all of the Catholics and Orthodox Christians on this forum.)

You sir are the one needing to repent for arrogantly supporting this spiritually cannibalistic ritual that negates the ONE time sufficiency of Christ's death and resurrection.

Was Jesus only spiritually Crucified? Did He only Spiritually rise from the dead? NO! He suffered the pain, the embarrassment, the actual death, and, once He had preached the Word to Hell, He rose, in the flesh.

His ONE time death was sufficient... thinking man has any power to manipulate Christ into a wafer and a cup of wine is delusional sorcery, imo.