What would you do for unity?

[W2L]

Rehashing alleged grievances does not foster debate. I’ll deviates from it. Besides, I would not want to see anyone unintentionally run afoul of the rules to which we all agreed.

Now then, would you be so kind as to provide those examples?

I see, thank you. I stand corrected. As for the example i think it better to not call out heresy in this thread. Its enough to know that division itself is a work of flesh.
One will argue that there must be division in order to root out heresy. How then do we walk in unity when we are divided? My answer is to make religion more simplistic. Why shouldn't it be? Jesus yoke is light. I believe the apostles wanted us to have simplistic religion. Its about love and unity. (Not unity with darkness however.)

 

[JacksBratt]

The apostle paul said that factions and dissension are works of the flesh. Galatians 5

I believe that these dissensions were within the church....That is a total different egg than trying to have a world as a whole without dissension.

 

[W2L]

Is it really that straightforward? As I read it the implication is that there is a group that has it right, the ‘right’ set of biblical doctrines, and if the other churches would give up their heretical ideas, those the first group doesn’t agree with, them there would be unity? Is that what you mean, or have I misunderstood?

Let me first say i dont see unity happening. The question intrigues me however and i wonder what a person would be willing to give up.

To answer your question, i think everyone would have to give up something for unity.

 

[W2L]

I believe that these dissensions were within the church....That is a total different egg than trying to have a world as a whole without dissension.

I never once mentioned having world unity. I think we should be separate from the world.

 

[JacksBratt]

I never once mentioned having world unity. I think we should be separate from the world.

I apologize, Brinney asked:

brinny said: ↑
In addition, what kind of "unity" specifically?

You responded:

Unity is the absence of division and strife.

So, I was looking at unity as on a grand scale. Not just inside the body of Christ.

 

[W2L]

I apologize, Brinney asked:

brinny said: ↑
In addition, what kind of "unity" specifically?

You responded:

Unity is the absence of division and strife.

So, I was looking at unity as on a grand scale. Not just inside the body of Christ.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I would suggest that the lack of unity in the Christian world has more to do with an unwillingness to agree to disagree on areas where there is some debate, namely doctrines or practices that are not included in the nicene creed and are not self evidently sinful, in direct and indisputable contradiction of scripture, and worship together despite those differences.

Brother, I couldn't have said it any better myself.

 

[Monk Brendan]

@The Times said he did not know David Wilkerson.

There is this book called, "The Cross and the Switchblade," written by him, that tells about his first congregation in the Hispanic ghetto. He did a fairly good job of turning gang members around. I read the book, and he seemed to be pretty real.

But you're Orthodox, so why should I be explaining things to you? I was tonsured a Rassaphore Monk By Bishop Basil in October of 2001. I am a Melkite, which is one of the "Uniate" Churches in communion with the Pope.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Yes we have division but thats because we have heresy within the body. If that heresy were not present we would have unity. Thus i ask the question what would you give up for unity?

W2L, what heresy, specifically are you trying to pin to me or others on these fora?

 

[W2L]

W2L, what heresy, specifically are you trying to pin to me or others on these fora?

Im not pinning anything on anyone. Im referring to this scripture. The scripture does the talking not me.


1 Corinthians 11:18-19New King James Version (NKJV)
18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

 

[Monk Brendan]

If you think there is a problem with me leaving the Lutheran Church then you don't understand the concept of Sola Scriptura. It means the ultimate truth is available from scripture. One person can't co-opt the RCC quoting scripture and say they now own the truth such that all doctrine they manufacture is to be taken without question. Lutherans think themselves so different than Catholics, but I say they behave the same, just follow a different "Pope". As much as Lutherans disdain the Pope, they treat Martin Luther the same.

I've spent enough time as a Protestant that I know what Sola Scriptura is, and I understand the context. For instance, what about John 21:25? “And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.” Or, what about “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”

With that in mind, that the acts of Jesus alone would take up all the books in the world, and that Paul himself spoke about holding the TRADITIONS that he taught. Now we see that if traditions are allowed by Paul, then we should be able to keep those traditions now.

What are those traditions? Nobody knows, exactly, but seeing as there is no writing of Jesus acts after the Resurrection, (save going to lunch, or fishing and feeding His apostles on the beach or finally proving that He really was who He claimed to be) we find that we are left with maybe 35 days that are not documented.

Is it possible, yes or no, that Jesus was teaching his apostles how to conduct the Liturgy of the Eucharist?

Again, only a yes or no answer please, and then proof FROM SCRIPTURE that this is so.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Let me first say i dont see unity happening.

Seems the major denominations are "uniting as we speak... did you miss the big Kairos meeting this year? Or the "monumental" event of the death of Protestantism on Oct 31st?

To answer your question, i think everyone would have to give up something for unity.

You would think but there is one player in the ecumenical pool that doesn't seem interested in giving up anything of their belief... just expecting the "daughters" to compromise and come back to the "mother".

Jesus said He came not to unite but to divide. I don't think he was just talking about the divide between the religious and secular world. Jesus said that many will come to Him saying, did we not do all these wonderful things in your name? And He will say to them, depart from me, I never knew you. This is a rebuke to the religious world that there is a right way and a wrong way of worshipping God. People like to talk of the love of Jesus like it is the entirety of His message. What about Justice and Judgement. Jesus asked all Christians to keep His Commandments in the power of the Spirit... yet we don't see that being taught or practiced much.

Can two walk together unless they be agreed?

 

[Monk Brendan]

Im not pinning anything on anyone. Im referring to this scripture. The scripture does the talking not me.

Okay, what group, specifically are you talking about, OR name the heresy, and point to an example.

Or refresh my memory, which Scripture are you talking about?

 

[W2L]

Seems the major denominations are "uniting as we speak... did you miss the big Kairos meeting this year? Or the "monumental" event of the death of Protestantism on Oct 31st?



You would think but there is one player in the ecumenical pool that doesn't seem interested in giving up anything of their belief... just expecting the "daughters" to compromise and come back to the "mother".

Jesus said He came not to unite but to divide. I don't think he was just talking about the divide between the religious and secular world. Jesus said that many will come to Him saying, did we not do all these wonderful things in your name? And He will say to them, depart from me, I never knew you. This is a rebuke to the religious world that there is a right way and a wrong way of worshipping God. People like to talk of the love of Jesus like it is the entirety of His message. What about Justice and Judgement. Jesus asked all Christians to keep His Commandments in the power of the Spirit... yet we don't see that being taught or practiced much.

Can two walk together unless they be agreed?

Thanks bro

 

[W2L]

Okay, what group, specifically are you talking about, OR name the heresy, and point to an example.

Or refresh my memory, which Scripture are you talking about?

I just posted it, you need not go far to find it.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Slanderous generalization that is not true for many Protestant churches, like even the one I left or the one I went to. As such your comments on being familiar with the "other side" is doubtful. And, you claim to not promote your church superior.

Sorry, but I am not saying that my church is superior. But I have seen and heard these things coming from Protestant churches. I know, because I was there!

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I've spent enough time as a Protestant that I know what Sola Scriptura is, and I understand the context. For instance, what about John 21:25? “And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.” Or, what about “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”

With that in mind, that the acts of Jesus alone would take up all the books in the world, and that Paul himself spoke about holding the TRADITIONS that he taught. Now we see that if traditions are allowed by Paul, then we should be able to keep those traditions now.

What are those traditions? Nobody knows, exactly, but seeing as there is no writing of Jesus acts after the Resurrection, (save going to lunch, or fishing and feeding His apostles on the beach or finally proving that He really was who He claimed to be) we find that we are left with maybe 35 days that are not documented.

Is it possible, yes or no, that Jesus was teaching his apostles how to conduct the Liturgy of the Eucharist?

Again, only a yes or no answer please, and then proof FROM SCRIPTURE that this is so.

The "traditions" taught by the apostles to the new converts were in complete agreement with what Jesus taught, not added to. This idea of traditions having merit that are contrary to scripture is not found in the Bible. "If they speak not according to this Word, there is no light in them" The traditions of the eucharist (transubstantiation), infant baptism, indulgences, praying to anyone except the Father, importance of relics, etc, etc, are not taught in the scriptures and therefore not acceptable forms of worship to God.

Matt 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[The Times]

What would you do for unity?

Firstly, we must disect what this means and the implications involved in being driven by this end goal.

Secondly, whose unity is it. We must substantiate who the author of this unity is.

If we look at the world today, with the happenings, then we can with certainty discern wickedness is increasing and gaining pace.

What did Jesus say concerning the last days....

7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,

With everyone or almost 90% of humanity being plugged in with a technological interface or buddy, we have less human interaction and a society is manifestating that is growing in Apathy rather then Empathy.

The hunger for money is the end game for humanity to strive to stay above your neighbour and with the advent of this 4th Industrial Revolution, we have the dehumanization of humanity, through technocratic genderless transhumanist androgynous society that has waxed cold in the love department.

Jesus paints a picture of division, betrayel coinciding with the falling away from the faith. This is the compromise, the selling out of Jesus Christ, by an ecumenical interfaith movement that is lightly sprayed with jesus, that is small j and a worldly unity gospel, that is also with a small g.

When they are saying peace and safety in striving for unity, the falling away is manifesting because of their compromised faith.

The author of worldly unity in the last days coinciding with the falling away from the faith is non other than Satan.

Don't be fooled or drafted into this deception and discern that towards the end of the harvest, before Christ's brilliant coming, division must occur, to separate the Wheat from the Tares. Father will be against Son and daughter against mother and so on and the sword of separation will be the flavour of the day.

In the last days, who in their rightful mind would strive towards unity, for it is a trap and has all the trappings of Satan, the great deceiver. Scripture states that towards the end of the harvest, when the Gospel has found itself in all nations across the globe, the following....

7When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison.8He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore.9And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them. (Revelation 20)

So Satan's purpose towards the end of the harvest will be to deceive the world and to attack God's Church from within and without. What better way to do it, to bring them all under the same resident evil umbrella and destroy them all in one go.

Now you know why Jesus strategically established thousands of denominations, whereas the Devil is pushing for unity.

If you walk towards unity, you walk right into the Devil's hypnotic hands.

Run away from unity people RUN!

It is written my people are destroyed because of their lack of knowledge.

 

[W2L]

What would you do for unity?

Firstly, we must disect what this means and the implications involved in being driven by this end goal

Secondly, whose unity is it. We must substantiate who the author of this unity is.

If we lool at the world today, with the happenings, then we can with certainty discern wickedness is increasing and gaining pace.

What did Jesus say concerning the last days....

7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,

With everyone or almost 90% of humanity being plugged in with a technological interface or buddy, we have less human interaction and a society is manifestating that is growing in Apathy rather then Empathy.

The hunger for money is the end game for humanity to strive to stay above your neighbour and with the advent of this 4th Industrial Revolution, we have the dehumanization of humanity, through technocratic genderless transhumanist society that has waxed cold in the love department.

Jesus paints a picture of division, betrayel coinciding with the falling away from the faith. This is the compromise, the selling out of Jesus Christ, by an ecumenical interfaith movement that is lightly sprayed with jesus, that is small j and a worldly unity gospel, that is also with a small g.

When they are saying peace and safety in striving for unity, the falling away is manifesting because of their compromised faith.

The author of worldly unity in the last days coinciding with the falling away from the faith is non other than Satan.

Don't be fooled or drafted into this deception and discern that towards the end of the harvest, before Christ's brilliant coming, division must occur, to separate the Wheat from the Tares. Father will be against Son and daughter against mother and so on and the sword of separation will be the flavour of the day.

In the last days, who in their rightful mind would strive towards unity, for it is a trap abd has all the trappings of Satan, the great deceiver. Scripture states that towards the end of the harvest, when the Gospel has found itself in all nations across the globe, the following....

7When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison.8He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore.9And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them. (Revelation 20)

So Satan's purpose towards the end of the harvest will be to deceive the world and to attack God's Church from within and without. What better way to do it, to bring them all under the same resident evil umbrella and destroy them all in one go.

Now you know why Jesus statistically established thousands of denominations, whereas the Devil is pushing for unity.

If you walk towards unity, you walk right into the Devil's hypnotic hands.

Run away from unity people RUN!

It is written my people are destroyed because of their lack of knowledge.

All im suggesting is that we seek the unity that the apostles teach us

 

[Monk Brendan]

The traditions of the eucharist (transubstantiation), infant baptism, indulgences, praying to anyone except the Father, importance of relics, etc, etc, are not taught in the scriptures and therefore not acceptable forms of worship to God.

Pay attention sir, Transubstantiation is a Western custom that is not followed by Eastern Christians. We simply call it a mystery, and don't worry HOW the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ. This is shown in all four of the Gospels. You cannot show me ONE verse of Scripture that says that the Eucharist is AGAINST the Word of God.

Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39). We also read: "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). These commands are universal, not restricted to adults. Further, these commands make clear the necessary connection between baptism and salvation, a
connection explicitly stated in 1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Indulgences, as they were sold during Martin Luther's days, have been acknowledged by the Church as wrongdoing, and they have apologized for it. However, an indulgence was a "get out of jail" card for this world, and not the next. Penances (in other words, the reparations that you have to make for you to be in good spiritual health) were especially severe back then. Time in stocks, wearing sackcloth and ashes, etc. They would not just be for three or four hours. Penances could run months, and maybe years. So an indulgence would get a person out of his punishment for 90 days from the year assigned.

The idea of Purgatory is kind of old fashioned nowadays. So there is no need for years in prayer trying to rescue a soul from purgatory. However, did you know that all of the people in purgatory are actually saved? They are! So there is no worrying about the salvation of pious old aunt Jessie, who was Catholic, and went to Mass every day, and then she went to the soup kitchen and volunteered her time there. She's in heaven.

As for asking the saints (the dead in heaven--and if that ruins your idea of "soul sleep," too bad. The saints are our friends, and they, in turn, pass our prayers, along with theirs, to Jesus, to the Father.

Relics? If you have a picture of Aunt Jessie, and you really loved her, wouldn't you keep a photo of her on your dresser or nightstand? Or, what about the bones of Elisha, who was so holy that when he died, and just his bones were left, some dead guy was thrown in, and that guy came back to life (2Kings 13:21) And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

And then there are the cloths that people would touch to Peter and the Apostles, and take them home, or bring them to a sick person, and the cloth would HEAL them. Or for that matter, how about Peter's shadow?

Etc. Etc. Etc.