What would be the evidence for ex nihilo creation?

[JohnR7]

But that's the lottery: there aren't that many lotteries.

In this case we are talking the theory of benificial mutations. There is no question that life exists. So it must have come into existance somehow. But the theory of benificial mutations and random process is not the answer to how it all happened.

 

[JohnR7]

I have no affiliation whatsoever with Protestants ---

So you have no ax to grind with the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[JohnR7]

this looks like the old "Baptists aren't Protestants" idea*.

Actually what it looks like is that you have a propensity to pigeonhole people and stereotype them
It makes life so much easier when you can tell them what they believe.

 

[Chalnoth]

In this case we are talking the theory of benificial mutations. There is no question that life exists. So it must have come into existance somehow. But the theory of benificial mutations and random process is not the answer to how it all happened.

There is no theory of beneficial mutations. But that's right, it wasn't beneficial mutations and a random process, it was every kind of mutation + natural selection (on prebiotic molecules for abiogenesis).

 

[rambot]

This is an estimation, then, of the probability of the physical laws of the universe coming out like our own, if we accept a basic string theory argument. I personally think this is an argument against our current models of string theory, not an argument for special creation.

I dunno though. It seems largely academic at best; and completely unrelated to the possibility of evolution occurring at worst.
Perhaps I'm missing the point of this all.

As I understand your explanation, if it discusses the "probability of the physical laws of the universe coming out like our own" then it is only really applicable to an end point prediction and has little to no bearing on the mechanism that brought us here.

So how can this number be used as "chances of evolution bringing us here" when this theory seems to be dealing with cosmos and much greater boundaries than simply life on earth.

 

[Adriac]

That's one thousand times in a row, by the same man.

I would even question the same man winning one thousand times, period.

Please read this again until you understand it.

I wasn't clear, and I apologize. It's like this.

The odds of flipping a coin and it coming up heads are exactly the same as the odds of it coming up tails. Thus, the odds of flipping a coin twice and having it come up two heads is the same as the odds of it coming up heads tails. We can clearly see that, although flipping a coin ten times heads in a row would be quite improbable, it is no more improbable than the odds of coming up heads heads tails heads tails tails tails heads tails heads.

The odds that one man (call him Adam) will win the lottery are the same as the odds that someone else, let's say, Beth, will win. Clearly we can see that the odds of Adam winning twice in a row are precisely the same as the odds of Adam winning and then Beth winning. Repeat the process ten, a hundred, or a thousand times, you'll see the same thing. The odds are the same.

If I predict that Adam will win, Beth will win, Charlie will win, and the Dude will win, I will certainly be proven wrong. However, the actual outcome of those lotteries ( Jack, Mary, Frank, Phil ) is precisely as unlikely.

Saying that it is impossible for one man to win the lottery one thousand times is simply incorrect. It is in fact proven to be a possibility.

 

[JohnR7]

There is no theory of beneficial mutations. But that's right, it wasn't beneficial mutations and a random process, it was every kind of mutation + natural selection (on prebiotic molecules for abiogenesis).

Natural selection has to have something to select.
It is a interesting theory but it does not work if there is nothing for natural selection to select.

 

[AV1611VET]

So you have no ax to grind with the Roman Catholic Church?

Let me put it this way, John. I teach that there is no such thing as a Protestant today. They had their fifteen minutes of fame back in the 16th century.

In a broader sense of the word, Protestant came to be used as the collective name for those individuals and churches who advocated a formal separation from the Roman Catholic Church...

I was never a part of the Roman Catholic Church.

I'm an independent Baptist. This means that we don't even answer to other Baptist churches. We're completely autonomous.

In the Navy, if an Admiral comes aboard a vessel, the Captain of that vessel still has authority over his ship. This includes authority over that Admiral, as well.

When a missionary comes to our church, he submits to our rules and regulations, or we as a congregation can outst him.

If it weren't for our antagonists, we wouldn't even be called Bapitsts.

But to answer your question --- yes, I have axes to grind with the Roman Catholic Church.

I take offense to people who call me a Protestant, because it links me (albeit in a negative way) to the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Chalnoth]

As I understand your explanation, if it discusses the "probability of the physical laws of the universe coming out like our own" then it is only really applicable to an end point prediction and has little to no bearing on the mechanism that brought us here.

True. The problem is that we don't yet know of any processes that could bring the full 10, 11, or 26-dimensional string theory down to the 4 dimensions we are familiar with in the very specific way that provides us with the natural laws as we know them. But, as I've said, I think this is more likely a problem with string theory than any statement that our universe is actually that improbable. Whether it means that more work needs to be done in string theory to find such mechanisms, or whether it means that we should discard string theory and work on discovering other potential unification theories, I do not know.

So how can this number be used as "chances of evolution bringing us here" when this theory seems to be dealing with cosmos and much greater boundaries than simply life on earth.

Yup. If he's going to use this argument, you'd hope that he would at least concede to natural abiogenesis and biological evolution. After all, to use the argument at the level of the beginning of the universe requires that one accept what came after.

 

[Chalnoth]

Natural selection has to have something to select.
It is a interesting theory but it does not work if there is nothing for natural selection to select.

Since we're talking about the origin of life here, those somethings we call prebiotic molecules. These prebiotic molecules are self-replicating, but don't have the entire metabolism self-contained. Since they are selft-replicating, they are subject to mutation and natural selection. Since they don't yet have a self-contained metabolism, they are very inefficient at replicating. Natural selection will therefore push these molecules towards a self-contained metabolism. It will push them towards life.

 

[AV1611VET]

I would like to thank everyone who participated in this thread --

 

[Split Rock]

I would like to thank all the little people who made my fame what it is today.

 

[AV1611VET]

I would like to thank all the little people who made my fame what it is today.

7

 

[Belk]

I would like to thank everyone who participated in this thread --

You bumped this thread to thank people for participating five years ago?

 

[AV1611VET]

You bumped this thread to thank people for participating five years ago?

Gratitude, like honey, has no shelf-life --

 

[Belk]

Gratitude, like honey, has no shelf-life --

True enough, but I think "Day late, dollar short" might apply as well.

 

[Cabal]

You know, I'm inclined to let this one drop, seeing as it's his own thread, for once.

Then again, he repeats himself often enough as it is....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by AV1611VET I would like to thank everyone who participated in this thread --

You bumped this thread to thank people for participating five years ago?

Tis a great thread tho

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I would like to thank all the little people who made my fame what it is today.

Yer welcome

 

[AV1611VET]

Yer welcome

I forgot all about this thread.

Thank you, Lamb!