What will we give to be unified?

[Romans 13:3]

If we had an ecumenical council today, depending on the result, we could expect some major schisms on either side by those who would see the Council as a betrayal.

Unfortunately, this is probably more true than most would want to admit

As St. Jerome rightly observed: "There would be as many schisms in the Church as there are priests." (65)[/quote]

While the precise manner manner might change, certainly a strong central figure is needed. Look no further than the 30,000+ denominations in the US now.

Thank you for all of the great thoughts, I have learned a lot. Don

 

[BAFRIEND]

Seriously, someone stated that the Orthodox problem was with the perception of a conversion mission by the RCC and frankly, I can understand the point of view as I have been kind of put off with some of the RCC's writings in dealings with Protestants, most notably with the Angelicans.

As someone who has been within the Evangelical community, I can state that the RCC's paternalism is certainly not appreciated and is definitely taken for granted by the RCC clergy.

 

[Romans 13:3]

Do you think this is part of the pride thing that we have discussed? What do you mean by paternalism? Thanks, Don

 

[BrRichSFO]

Seriously, someone stated that the Orthodox problem was with the perception of a conversion mission by the RCC and frankly, I can understand the point of view as I have been kind of put off with some of the RCC's writings in dealings with Protestants, most notably with the Angelicans.

As someone who has been within the Evangelical community, I can state that the RCC's paternalism is certainly not appreciated and is definitely taken for granted by the RCC clergy.

To me that seems odd. Since we acknowledge that there is only One True Church, the Catholic Church. Reunion is only by returning to that One True Church, that is not Paternalism or Pride it's just fact.

 

[Silouan]

To me that seems odd. Since we acknowledge that there is only One True Church, the Catholic Church. Reunion is only by returning to that One True Church, that is not Paternalism or Pride it's just fact.

And this is where you come to the gridlock! Both sides state that they are that One True Church. Rome holds that claim because of its primacy. EOC holds that claim because Rome, essentially, excommunitated all of the other Patriarchates (Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Constantinople), so its a curious thing for the Orthodox, because they see it like this: the bishop in Rome threw a temper tantrum because the other bishops wouldnt let him be king, so he uninvited everyone to his birthday party. So the question remains, who separated from who. Or, did we separate from each other for multiple reasons, which was more like a divorce than one leaving the paternal church.

 

[stivvy]

...they see it like this: the bishop in Rome threw a temper tantrum because the other bishops wouldnt let him be king, so he uninvited everyone to his birthday party....

The imagery is right on. I like the analogy. But hay, the EC people got through it and let by gones be by gones.

 

[Silouan]

The imagery is right on. I like the analogy. But hay, the EC people got through it and let by gones be by gones.

Well..thats my attitude.

 

[BAFRIEND]

Do you think this is part of the pride thing that we have discussed? What do you mean by paternalism? Thanks, Don

Stanford Dictionary:

Paternalism

First published Wed Nov 6, 2002; substantive revision Tue Dec 20, 2005
Paternalism is the interference of a state or an individual with another person, against their will, and justified by a claim that the person interfered with will be better off or protected from harm. The issue of paternalism arises with respect to restrictions by the law such as anti-drug legislation, the compulsory wearing of seatbelts, and in medical contexts by the withholding of relevant information concerning a patient's condition by physicians. At the theoretical level it raises questions of how person's should be treated when they are less than fully rational.

This is not neccessarily the scope of my meaning in the post.

 

[BAFRIEND]

To me that seems odd. Since we acknowledge that there is only One True Church, the Catholic Church. Reunion is only by returning to that One True Church, that is not Paternalism or Pride it's just fact.

Don't misunderstand my post.

My being put off does not stem from a lack of acknowledgement of what you just stated.

It comes from a lack of acknowledgement that the parties being dealt with will never see it and that the RCC's clergy needs to take a different track in the tones and dealing with others perceptions.

 

[Romans 13:3]

BA:

Is a fair summary of what you said that in your mind the RCC is seen by the EOC as more trying to convert them than heal a schism? And furthermore, the RCC is perceived as an over protective, overly assertive parent by people of other faiths?

Just trying to fully understand what you mean. I think we are seeing the problem nearly the same, if I understand you correctly.

 

[BrRichSFO]

And this is where you come to the gridlock! Both sides state that they are that One True Church. Rome holds that claim because of its primacy. EOC holds that claim because Rome, essentially, excommunitated all of the other Patriarchates (Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Constantinople), so its a curious thing for the Orthodox, because they see it like this: the bishop in Rome threw a temper tantrum because the other bishops wouldnt let him be king, so he uninvited everyone to his birthday party. So the question remains, who separated from who. Or, did we separate from each other for multiple reasons, which was more like a divorce than one leaving the paternal church.

I guess it's like a divorce except that one moved out of the house (the Catholic Church). That does not mean that the house no longer exists. The other one still lives there. The one that moved out can and is invited to, move back in.

 

[BrRichSFO]

BA:

Is a fair summary of what you said that in your mind the RCC is seen by the EOC as more trying to convert them than heal a schism? And furthermore, the RCC is perceived as an over protective, overly assertive parent by people of other faiths?

Just trying to fully understand what you mean. I think we are seeing the problem nearly the same, if I understand you correctly.

That may be a concern that the EOC is concerned with being "Latinized". Pope John Paul II and Benedict both have said that will not be the case. They will join their Eastern Catholic counterparts and keep and protect their unique Eastern Rites and practices.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Ok so anyone here remember how in Xmen, Professor X and Magneto were friends, but then they had a falling out cuz Magneto was all "we need war on the regular humans!" And Xavier was like "no way dude. We need to get them not to fear us" and they became enemies. But then a few years later Mr. Sinister came in and was stirring up trouble and Xavier is like "crap, we need Magneto's help" and Magneto is like "Yea you do and we've gotta band together to stop this guy or else!"

I guess that's sort of like the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church.

 

[InnerPhyre]

That may be a concern that the EOC is concerned with being "Latinized". Pope John Paul II and Benedict both have said that will not be the case. They will join their Eastern Catholic counterparts and keep and protect their unique Eastern Rites and practices.

That will, unfortunately, not work. We have no desire whatsoever to join the Uniates. But even after fighting Sinister, Magneto didn't end up joining the Xmen

 

[QuantaCura]

That will, unfortunately, not work. We have no desire whatsoever to join the Uniates.

I think what was meant, is that if some sort of reunion occured (whether it be exactly how EO want it or exactly how Catholics want it or something in between) there wouldn't exist separate Eastern Churches where there are Catholic and Orthdox counterparts currently--they would become a single entity--regardless of which one we say "joined" the other.

 

[InnerPhyre]

I think that the comment on the previous page about the Orthodox Church seeing the Catholic Church as trying to convert the East instead of healing the schism is spot on.

 

[QuantaCura]

I think that the comment on the previous page about the Orthodox Church seeing the Catholic Church as trying to convert the East instead of healing the schism is spot on.

Really? That doesn't seem to be the modern policy by the Holy See in the 20th century at least. Talk is always of re-union, not conversion--you can read at least 19th and 20th century docs dealing with this issue and the phrase "reunion" is always used, never conversion. It's usually the Eastern Orthodox writers who speak in terms of Rome's repentence and return to orthodoxy and who have used much harsher terms in recent decades.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Really? That doesn't seem to be the modern policy by the Holy See in the 20th century at least. Talk is always of re-union, not conversion--you can read at least 19th and 20th century docs dealing with this issue and the phrase "reunion" is always used, never conversion. It's usually the Eastern Orthodox writers who speak in terms of Rome's repentence and return to orthodoxy and who have used much harsher terms in recent decades.

The talk may have gotten softer, but the requirements have not. There's no getting around it. Rome wants the East to submit to the Pope's universal authority. This has ever been the history of the east and west. Not that long ago either. St. Peter the Aleut comes to mind. Not the we think that Rome is going to put us to the sword, but theologically speaking, the Orthodox faithful would die for our faith before we would confess the Pope's universal authority over the church.

 

[Silouan]

Another issue, in my opinion, is that Vatican II is not highly favored by the OC.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Keep in mind my Xmen analogy though. We won't have communion together unless one side gives. The Orthodox Church won't give. So in the meantime, we should work together to fight against the evil of secularization and moral relativism.