What will we give to be unified?

[Romans 13:3]

Over the last few weeks there have been several threads dealing with the idea of healing the schism between us and Eastern Orthodox. We talk about it, pray for it, long for it. I think that many Catholics' idea of unification is that all of the Orthodox Bishops will wake up and say we are wrong, you are right, and the pope has our allegiance. Not very realistic in my opinion.

For the sake of an academic exercise, what are we (in the sense we are advising the hierarchy) willing to give on to make unification happen?

Is this to bold of question for the laity to even ponder?

 

[QuantaCura]

Is this to bold of question for the laity to even ponder?

I don't know, but these discussions never turn out productive--and since none of us has any say in the matter, I think it's best to focus on what we can do--come to an understanding and appreciation of the customs and traditions of our separated brethren, treat them with warmth and charity, and purify our own souls and own spiritual household--and of course, pray, fast and do penance. If the laity in both camps do this, I'm sure the men in charge of the formalities will be given the grace to do what's right.

 

[D'Ann]

I am, but only laity... I don't have the insight, wisdom or understanding that Pope B16 has or that JPII had.

What I will do is pray and continue to pray. I believe in miracles and hopefully, someday there will be unity. If not here on earth, then in heaven.

I'm sorry not to be able to add more to your thread.

Welcome to the OBOB.

 

[QuantaCura]

If by a miracle, all of pagan central and South American can come to the truth, surely Our Lady can obtain for us the grace to iron out a few minor differences in comparison

 

[BrRichSFO]

Over the last few weeks there have been several threads dealing with the idea of healing the schism between us and Eastern Orthodox. We talk about it, pray for it, long for it. I think that many Catholics' idea of unification is that all of the Orthodox Bishops will wake up and say we are wrong, you are right, and the pope has our allegiance. Not very realistic in my opinion.

For the sake of an academic exercise, what are we (in the sense we are advising the hierarchy) willing to give on to make unification happen?

Is this to bold of question for the laity to even ponder?

Nothing, because nothing can be compromised, the Truth is the Truth. What many don't understand is that unification in the East means the twenty something Orthodox Churches become part of their specific Catholic counterparts. In other words the Ukranian Orthodox Church does not become a sister Church to the Ukranian Catholic Church, it must become part of the Ukranian Catholic Church, not a parallel Church.

 

[hsilgne]

...we all agree that Jesus always told the Truth and that if we trust in Him and follow Him, He will lead us to Heaven. The Body of Christ is joined(wether we like it or not ).

John 10:14
I am the good shepherd and I know mine, and mine know me.

Luke 11:17
But he seeing their thoughts, said to them Every kingdom divided against itself shall be brought to desolation and house upon house shall fall.

Mark 9:37 - 39
John answered him, saying: Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, who followeth not us and we forbade him. But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a mircale in my name and can soon speak ill of me. For he that is not against you is for you.

Matthew 16:18
And I say to thee, that thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[King of the Nations]

Nothing, because nothing can be compromised, the Truth is the Truth. What many don't understand is that unification in the East means the twenty something Orthodox Churches become part of their specific Catholic counterparts. In other words the Ukranian Orthodox Church does not become a sister Church to the Ukranian Catholic Church, it must become part of the Ukranian Catholic Church, not a parallel Church.

Yeah, but keep in mind that it's "true" that I like chocolate ice cream. If I needed to give that up in order for, say, my wife to live with me because she has chocolate allergies (pretend the mere sight of it makes her sick), I would certainly be willing and able to do so.

In a similar manner, there are a number of things we could indeed do to advance the cause of unity w/o compromising essential truths, not the least of which would be demonstrating greater respect for eastern Christian patrimony.

Greg

 

[GorrionGris]

Over the last few weeks there have been several threads dealing with the idea of healing the schism between us and Eastern Orthodox. We talk about it, pray for it, long for it. I think that many Catholics' idea of unification is that all of the Orthodox Bishops will wake up and say we are wrong, you are right, and the pope has our allegiance. Not very realistic in my opinion.

For the sake of an academic exercise, what are we (in the sense we are advising the hierarchy) willing to give on to make unification happen?

Is this to bold of question for the laity to even ponder?

a) Pride.

b) No, the church is not a democracy, but neither a dictatorship. Many theologians today are not even priests.

 

[BrRichSFO]

Yeah, but keep in mind that it's "true" that I like chocolate ice cream. If I needed to give that up in order for, say, my wife to live with me because she has chocolate allergies (pretend the mere sight of it makes her sick), I would certainly be willing and able to do so.

In a similar manner, there are a number of things we could indeed do to advance the cause of unity w/o compromising essential truths, not the least of which would be demonstrating greater respect for eastern Christian patrimony.

Greg

Agreed, but you cannot do away with chocolate ice cream all together. I think many of the faithful here would not tolerate that.

 

[King of the Nations]

Agreed, but you cannot do away with chocolate ice cream all together. I think many of the faithful here would not tolerate that.

Especially the double fudge. Indeed...

Greg

 

[WordofGod]

The wheat is all ready united in Christ but it doesn't recognize it ‘self in French Bread vs. Italian Bread est..But Christ does.

 

[Romans 13:3]

Thank you to those who responded. The answers were kinda what I expected. Certainly stepping back from the pride aspect is a great idea. I apologize for the length of this post, but I wanted to try to explain my thoughts, not merely regurgitate the writings of theologians.

While I am new to the forum thing, I am not new to the Catholic Church and while I have had my struggles with the faith and faith in general, I love it. And I expect the feelings and affinity I have for the Catholic way is not uncommon. I also realize that most Orthodox have the same feelings about their churches.

When I reflect on the life of the Lord I often wonder how much we really know about Him. Sure we have the scriptures and the Bible, but we cannot agree with our fellow Christian brothers on what and how important each are, let alone the importance and application of tradition. So I drift to filling in blanks with history and logic.

While religion is a matter of faith not fact, we have some facts or near facts to use. First, Jesus is a real person that really lived and really was executed by a real Roman prefect. We know that the writings that were to become the New Testament are years newer than first hand accounts. We know that several traditions developed nearly simultaneously and the one the grew the largest became the root of the three apostolic churches.

We will never know the exact modality of Jesus and his divinity and humanity. We believe that He is truly God and truly man, but I doubt that anyone truly understands it, especially what it means to be God. We do understand what it means to be human. So just using this context, Jesus, as a human spiritual leader, would have wanted to start a movement, not movements. It is not logical that these divisions amongst which we live are particularly desired by the Lord, lest he would have given James one set of direction, Andrew another, and so on. Sure, his divinity would have allowed him to know what would happen or the human tendencies that would lead to it. But humanity's free will still reigns and the divisions occurred.

All of that said, we must realize that the Orthodox love their Church as much as we do. Calling one another heretic will not help. We do not need to go back to 1054, we need to go back much further. For either church to say that they have no innovation but simply the faith of the apostles is silly (yes I realize that just offended untold people, sorry). Look at the list of things that the Protestants trot out every chance they get, they are real items with real dates. I am not saying they were wrong conclusions or developments, just that theological understanding changes. The same people who will defend papal infallibility are the ones who complain the priest faces the congregation. We can't have it both ways.

Only God truly knows the truth and that is why we worship him. Unity will come, in my opinion, when we and the Orthodox are willing to put 1700 years of teaching on the table and work at the problems. Both sides have to want it equally bad. My fear is that we are not at that juncture yet. Yes, I pray for unity often, but I think about more often. Perhaps someday I will be granted the cerebral breakthrough that will lead to the end of the divisions.

Respectfully,

Don

 

[WordofGod]

Nice try Don, keep it up.

 

[Romans 13:3]

I just feel that we pay lip service to the idea. No doubt, people exchanging ideas in these forums are friend with power brokers in our church. If you have a relationship with a bishop, it seems to me that, assuming unity is a high priority to you, you need to talk and ask and work for it.

I am curious what our EO family thinks, but I also realize from other PMs that they probably don't want to post for fear of someone alleging inappropriate debate. PM me with your thoughts, though, I would appreciate it.

Don

 

[Silouan]

Hey brothers and sisters..I have been following this thread out of interest Just to bring my two cents as an Orthodox, I consider you all, our Roman counterparts, as brothers and sisters in the faith. Of all the modern variation in Christendom today, we two are the only ones who go back to the apostles. Therefore, we need to stick together. I think the gulf that some people paint between the Orthodox East and Latin West is not as big as some make it sound. Sure there is a difference in Liturgy and things like that, but even we have Eastern and Western rite churches. I do think that, on certain things, the Orthodox and RC's think out of a different paradigm, but nothing that can not be healed.
I am sure that many of you know that Patriarch Alexey of Moscow (one of the patriarchs who has been most against reunification) is scheduled to meet Pope Benedict in Crete. This gladdens my heart and I look forward to seeing what will happen in the future.

May our Lady the Theotokos intercede for us!

 

[GorrionGris]

She is interceding for us!

 

[BrRichSFO]

Hey brothers and sisters..I have been following this thread out of interest Just to bring my two cents as an Orthodox, I consider you all, our Roman counterparts, as brothers and sisters in the faith. Of all the modern variation in Christendom today, we two are the only ones who go back to the apostles. Therefore, we need to stick together. I think the gulf that some people paint between the Orthodox East and Latin West is not as big as some make it sound. Sure there is a difference in Liturgy and things like that, but even we have Eastern and Western rite churches. I do think that, on certain things, the Orthodox and RC's think out of a different paradigm, but nothing that can not be healed.
I am sure that many of you know that Patriarch Alexey of Moscow (one of the patriarchs who has been most against reunification) is scheduled to meet Pope Benedict in Crete. This gladdens my heart and I look forward to seeing what will happen in the future.

May our Lady the Theotokos intercede for us!

I think what many people miss is that the issue is not between the Orthodox and the Latin West , but instead between the Orthodox and their sister Eastern Catholic Churches. Many times we see the Pope and think Roman or Latin Rite Catholic. When the pope actually has a more universal role than just the Roman or Latin Rite Church.

 

[BAFRIEND]

Over the last few weeks there have been several threads dealing with the idea of healing the schism between us and Eastern Orthodox. We talk about it, pray for it, long for it. I think that many Catholics' idea of unification is that all of the Orthodox Bishops will wake up and say we are wrong, you are right, and the pope has our allegiance. Not very realistic in my opinion.

For the sake of an academic exercise, what are we (in the sense we are advising the hierarchy) willing to give on to make unification happen?

Is this to bold of question for the laity to even ponder?

Knowing the hatred in Eastern Europe (particularly) of EO's towrds the Catholic Church, I would not give anything other than my credit card to the local arms dealer for the purpose of self-defense.

I know this is not the type of answer you want, but the hatred is rabid to the point of ethnic cleansing in some regions of the world.

 

[Silouan]

I think what many people miss is that the issue is not between the Orthodox and the Latin West , but instead between the Orthodox and their sister Eastern Catholic Churches. Many times we see the Pope and think Roman or Latin Rite Catholic. When the pope actually has a more universal role than just the Roman or Latin Rite Church.

When I think Roman Catholic I also think about the Eastern/Byzantine Catholics. "Roman Catholic" is a blanket term.

 

[Silouan]

Knowing the hatred in Eastern Europe (particularly) of EO's towrds the Catholic Church, I would not give anything other than my credit card to the local arms dealer for the purpose of self-defense.

I know this is not the type of answer you want, but the hatred is rabid to the point of ethnic cleansing in some regions of the world.

Its a grave oversimplification to say that the EO's in Eastern Europe oppose the RC's for no particular reason. Certain events have occured to create an unrest.