What will Modern Worship V2.0 look like?

[Carl Emerson]

Exactly...

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Poor musicianship and poor attendance are both caused by a lack of commitment. People aren't committed to their church enough to keep attending. People aren't committed enough to put in the hours and hours of practice to get good at playing and singing. If the only thing keeping people in church is the quality of the music, then I would question the quality of the congregation.

 

[Bass4Jesus]

Poor musicianship and poor attendance are both caused by a lack of commitment. People aren't committed to their church enough to keep attending. People aren't committed enough to put in the hours and hours of practice to get good at playing and singing. If the only thing keeping people in church is the quality of the music, then I would question the quality of the congregation.

But here's the point: People naturally have a visceral reaction to stinking garbage. It makes for a truly terrible experience. We as musicians are supposed to be leading people in worship, not testing the limits of people's vomit reflexes. Poorly-played music distracts from worship. That's worse than no collective worship at all. Far from being a worship enabler, it's a worship disabler.

Your comment about musicians not putting in the time to get good at their crafts is well-taken. I've found that even the simplest advances in skill seem to be beyond the reach of many players and singers. Funny, though, how the excuses are always ready when I ask why I'm seeing no improvement from week to week. Everyone's got a story, everyone's got a reason. I think there's a strong sense of entitlement at work here.

On topher694's point that Multitrack harmonies are available, I confess I did not know that. I thought it was only instruments. But at what point is the Multitracks contribution excessive, relative to the real instruments and voices? I've listened to some local churches' worship products that scream "Fake!" because the quotient of tracked content to real content is so high. I mean, why not just do a screen drop and project the original band performing the song? They're 80% there anyway, so why not go all the way?

(I must admit, however, that I did once use a harmony box to do the harmonies for "Your Love is Relentless." They came out great. The congregation loved it. But... O The Shame...)

Anyway, a screen drop is my first "wild" suggestion. A church I once played for dropped the main screen and played a video of Kalley Heiligenthal (Bethel) singing "God I Look To You" while the band was setting up for a service. The only people in the auditorium were the band, the sound tech, and the producer. Something intense and powerful came into the room during that time. I had to stop what I was doing, and just watch and listen. We all know there are many forms of worship. I'd put that at or near the top of anything I've ever experienced.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

But here's the point: People naturally have a visceral reaction to stinking garbage. It makes for a truly terrible experience. We as musicians are supposed to be leading people in worship, not testing the limits of people's vomit reflexes. Poorly-played music distracts from worship. That's worse than no collective worship at all. Far from being a worship enabler, it's a worship disabler.

Your comment about musicians not putting in the time to get good at their crafts is well-taken. I've found that even the simplest advances in skill seem to be beyond the reach of many players and singers. Funny, though, how the excuses are always ready when I ask why I'm seeing no improvement from week to week. Everyone's got a story, everyone's got a reason. I think there's a strong sense of entitlement at work here.

It can also be that different people have different gifts and/or aptitudes. One can't expect all fellow human beings--or even fellow Christians in this specific case---to be ratcheted out on an assembly line and become experts in some field, even in music. Some people may have a desire for musical performance but just aren't born with "the chops." So, it unfortunately means there will always be a 'shortage' of people who perform like 'stars.'

And then there are folks like the Music Minister I was talking about above: he thought he had 'pentecostal gift' for music; he even supposedly had a music degree from a Christian college, but the truth is, the guy couldn't sing or write a tune if his life depended upon it and he insisted that everyone take notice of his supposedly "holy spirit" filled musical talent and production. Everyone in the congregation could tell him that it was anything BUT that!

So, I can see both sides of this issue. And I do think you're at least partly right that folks should try harder to learn better so that they improve in their skills and become of more service to other people. However, I just want us to keep in mind that the best we can expect of people is to "do better," and few of them will become experts or a performance phenomenon.

 

[Bass4Jesus]

It can also be that different people have different gifts and/or aptitudes. One can't expect all fellow human beings--or even fellow Christians in this specific case---to be ratcheted out on an assembly line and become experts in some field, even in music. Some people may have a desire for musical performance but just aren't born with "the chops." So, it unfortunately means there will always be a 'shortage' of people who perform like 'stars.'

And then there are folks like the Music Minister I was talking about above: he thought he had 'pentecostal gift' for music; he even supposedly had a music degree from a Christian college, but the truth is, the guy couldn't sing or write a tune if his life depended upon it and he insisted that everyone take notice of his supposedly "holy spirit" filled musical talent and production. Everyone in the congregation could tell him that it was anything BUT that!

So, I can see both sides of this issue. And I do think you're at least partly right that folks should try harder to learn better so that they improve in their skills and become of more service to other people. However, I just want us to keep in mind that the best we can expect of people is to "do better," and few of them will become experts or a performance phenomenon.

I agree with the majority of what you're saying. I think people aren't being auditioned properly. The bar is set way too low around here. And the wrong people are auditioning the wrong talent. This is how untalented people slip in. A side note: There's a huge danger to green-lighting incompetent volunteers. Once they're in, they're in. It's not the same as paid talent, where you can tell those people their services are no longer needed, and there's no danger of hurt feelings.

I'd rather see two or three people doing the music -- people who really, really know what they're doing -- rather than seven or eight people, half of whom are hacks.

Some churches kneecap their own musical products by insisting that every "slot" be filled. By that I mean a bass player must be present, a keyboard player must be present, a drummer must be present, and so on. This, in my option, is insanity. I've seen this so many times, I've lost count.

Anyone remember Paul Baloche? He was hot about a decade ago. He put out a DVD series some years back on leading worship. It's up on Youtube now:

Although the music is dated, Baloche's advice is still relevant, and it always will be. Excellence is timeless.

One point he makes is that it's far better not to have a drummer than to have a substandard one. (He uses the drummer only as an example.) I agree fully with this recommendation, and I'd apply it to every musician and every singer. I'm almost certain Baloche would as well. Put only the best up there. If that means putting two people in front of the congregation rather than seven, then make it two, and make it a quiet affair rather than an all-out rocker. Or if a well-oiled band can't find a bass player (a good one), then purchase the bass track and include it in the backing track. Or get a decent bass player who's not part of the team to track the part a few days ahead of time and then email it to the producer, who can import it into Ableton Live or whatever DAW the church happens to use for its backing tracks.

But anyway, off-topic. My initial goal in posting was to get idea for replacing the current worship model. I've got an idea in mind that some of you will think is insane...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I agree with the majority of what you're saying. I think people aren't being auditioned properly. The bar is set way too low around here. And the wrong people are auditioning the wrong talent. This is how untalented people slip in. A side note: There's a huge danger to green-lighting incompetent volunteers. Once they're in, they're in. It's not the same as paid talent, where you can tell those people their services are no longer needed, and there's no danger of hurt feelings.

I'd rather see two or three people doing the music -- people who really, really know what they're doing -- rather than seven or eight people, half of whom are hacks.

Some churches kneecap their own musical products by insisting that every "slot" be filled. By that I mean a bass player must be present, a keyboard player must be present, a drummer must be present, and so on. This, in my option, is insanity. I've seen this so many times, I've lost count.

Anyone remember Paul Baloche? He was hot about a decade ago. He put out a DVD series some years back on leading worship. It's up on Youtube now:

Although the music is dated, Baloche's advice is still relevant, and it always will be. Excellence is timeless.

One point he makes is that it's far better not to have a drummer than to have a substandard one. (He uses the drummer only as an example.) I agree fully with this recommendation, and I'd apply it to every musician and every singer. I'm almost certain Baloche would as well. Put only the best up there. If that means putting two people in front of the congregation rather than seven, then make it two, and make it a quiet affair rather than an all-out rocker. Or if a well-oiled band can't find a bass player (a good one), then purchase the bass track and include it in the backing track. Or get a decent bass player who's not part of the team to track the part a few days ahead of time and then email it to the producer, who can import it into Ableton Live or whatever DAW the church happens to use for its backing tracks.

But anyway, off-topic. My initial goal in posting was to get idea for replacing the current worship model. I've got an idea in mind that some of you will think is insane...

...let's hear the 'insane' idea.

 

[WoshipWarrior]

...

Anyone remember Paul Baloche? He was hot about a decade ago. He put out a DVD series some years back on leading worship.

About 15 years ago when I decided it was time to learn how to do what I felt God calling me to "Leading Worship", I discovered Paul's ability to teach. In fact his website was (and is) Home Page | Leadworship it's all in the name. I bought all of his books, his dvds and learned from him where to start. He shaped the direction of where I went, and I still credit him to day, and his obedience to do what God asked him to do. I actually got to thank him personally at a conference - he is as genuine as he is humble.

 

[WoshipWarrior]

Given this situation, I want to hear people's opinions on where modern worship leading is headed. Crummy worship bands are driving people away from church. The reality is that people simply will not put up with it week after week. I've witnessed it personally, over and over and over again.

The current model is not viable in the long term. Something's got to take its place. I've got a couple thoughts of my own, but I'd like to hear what other people have to say.

My opinion, though not popular, is based off of almost 25 years of church Music Ministry service, 12+ of that as a "Worship Pastor". It is 100% a heart issue, and it starts from the top. Worship leaders these days don't always Pastor their team, they manage, administer, and "lead" their team. There's little in the way of being personally involved with the spiritual growth and temperament of their team. I'm not a "staff" or paid pastor. Never been. I serve God the way He calls me to, and my heart's desire is to take those people who say they are "called" and see if they are there to play for God or the people. The ones who are there practicing during the week because they know on Sunday, they get to show God how hard they've worked, and offer Him their best... those are the ones I want on my team.

When we realize that our own relationship with God should be based on love and a desire to be with, spend time with, and adorn the object of that affection, then our focus is bringing our best before God and we are operating in His strength.

When we realize we have talent and we enjoy hearing ourselves play/sing, and maybe getting the opportunity for the one or two compliments, then we are doing the work ourselves, in our own strength.

His strength is always > our own. I believe it's a heart issue, and it starts at the top. Are we filling seats, or changing hearts? It starts at the top.

LW.

 

[Amittai]

I've only observed what I've observed. Things I've seen go wrong are:

- horrifically bad amplifying, ruining quality playing
- slavishly copying the commercialised camps
- soppy song choices
- megaphonic muttering and intrusive chords between everything else
- amplifying staff that won't listen to constructive feedback
- pastors that don't ditto (to pass it on) - this issue is not considered important

One didn't get a hearing at church - so we tell it how it is on CF instead.

Almost always far too much bass for comfort. A complex accompaniment isn't needed, so I doubt you need seven instruments unless you've got a congregation of thousands or unless they are all acoustic.

If I can't hear myself sing, I don't. People who "don't seem to mind" turn out to be the worst at relating and sharing Scripture meanings anyway. Those are probably the ones that gape. They probably used to be like me or else they are hooked on the camps.

When I was always worn out and dazed before anything of importance happened, I stopped coming to church (that was two churches running - and they both closed the doors so you couldn't guess a "real" starting time to arrive without seeming to make a point) (at one of them however, we had good amplifying intermittently from a quite young boy)

I think the usual mandatory and rigidly ineffective format of proskuneo is slavish legalism.

Obviously amplifying staff don't practice during the week and they are the favourites of the "leadership" and can do no wrong.

I've known a few churches that take thought to do it well. That meant breaking relationships. One did it well one week and badly the next and weren't receptive.

A jobsworth attitude that doesn't put the weaker brethren is thought to be of exalted virtue.

 

[SGM4HIM]

Grettings,
I have liked everyone's comments.
I think everyone wanting to be added to the worship team read Don Potter's article, "So you want to be in the band?". He was a very accomplished guitarist since the 70's with Chuck Mangione before joining Morningstar. He had a check in his spirit and went on a year sabbatical to work out some issues.

other thoughts:
One should be annointed first regardless of your performance ability.
Poor sound system folks can distract band and congregation.
Worship songs that sound good on the radio may not be good for your church service.
Musicians & vocalists should remind themselves of the "less is more" theory, you don't have to fill every moment with sound.
Don't drowned out the Lyrics or play background filler that competes with the pastor or others reading scripture or prayer.

 

[Christian Apologist]

 

[iluvatar5150]

I agree with the majority of what you're saying. I think people aren't being auditioned properly. The bar is set way too low around here. And the wrong people are auditioning the wrong talent. This is how untalented people slip in. A side note: There's a huge danger to green-lighting incompetent volunteers. Once they're in, they're in. It's not the same as paid talent, where you can tell those people their services are no longer needed, and there's no danger of hurt feelings.

I'd rather see two or three people doing the music -- people who really, really know what they're doing -- rather than seven or eight people, half of whom are hacks.

Some churches kneecap their own musical products by insisting that every "slot" be filled. By that I mean a bass player must be present, a keyboard player must be present, a drummer must be present, and so on. This, in my option, is insanity. I've seen this so many times, I've lost count.

Anyone remember Paul Baloche? He was hot about a decade ago. He put out a DVD series some years back on leading worship. It's up on Youtube now:

Although the music is dated, Baloche's advice is still relevant, and it always will be. Excellence is timeless.

One point he makes is that it's far better not to have a drummer than to have a substandard one. (He uses the drummer only as an example.) I agree fully with this recommendation, and I'd apply it to every musician and every singer. I'm almost certain Baloche would as well. Put only the best up there. If that means putting two people in front of the congregation rather than seven, then make it two, and make it a quiet affair rather than an all-out rocker. Or if a well-oiled band can't find a bass player (a good one), then purchase the bass track and include it in the backing track. Or get a decent bass player who's not part of the team to track the part a few days ahead of time and then email it to the producer, who can import it into Ableton Live or whatever DAW the church happens to use for its backing tracks.

But anyway, off-topic. My initial goal in posting was to get idea for replacing the current worship model. I've got an idea in mind that some of you will think is insane...

I’m a huge advocate of this approach and wish more churches would adopt it. 1-2 competent musicians who’ve arranged the music for the instruments that are present will, every single time, smoke the 6-10 unprepared hacks trying to copy the latest Bethel/Hillsong production with 100 tracks.

Also, train your people instead of just buying gear to bandaid over their lack of skill. If your engineer has to go on facebook to ask how to get a multitrack recording from his $20k+ Digico console, you’re doing it wrong.

 

[topher694]

I’m a huge advocate of this approach and wish more churches would adopt it. 1-2 competent musicians who’ve arranged the music for the instruments that are present will, every single time, smoke the 6-10 unprepared hacks trying to copy the latest Bethel/Hillsong production with 100 tracks.

Also, train your people instead of just buying gear to bandaid over their lack of skill. If your engineer has to go on facebook to ask how to get a multitrack recording from his $20k+ Digico console, you’re doing it wrong.

I find it interesting that this reply does not mention words like: God, Jesus, worship, praise, heart, Spirit, truth.

But it does call Christians unsilked, unprepared hacks

 

[iluvatar5150]

I find it interesting that this reply does not mention words like: God, Jesus, worship, praise, heart, Spirit, truth.

That's because arranging music is a technical and aesthetic task that's entirely agnostic of the details of a person's faith. I don't want to say that those things don't matter at all, but in this context, they're mostly irrelevant except for how they drive other decisions upstream of the musical arrangement.

But it does call Christians unsilked, unprepared hacks

I'll concede that the term "hacks" may have been needlessly harsh, but when folks show up not knowing the music, not having copies of the music, not having the appropriate cables or batteries, not having their instruments in good working order, not knowing how to use their equipment, and/or not knowing how to even tune their instruments, then "unskilled" and/or "unprepared" are most certainly appropriate descriptors.

 

[topher694]

That's because arranging music is a technical and aesthetic task that's entirely agnostic of the details of a person's faith. I don't want to say that those things don't matter at all, but in this context, they're mostly irrelevant except for how they drive other decisions upstream of the musical arrangement.



I'll concede that the term "hacks" may have been needlessly harsh, but when folks show up not knowing the music, not having copies of the music, not having the appropriate cables or batteries, not having their instruments in good working order, not knowing how to use their equipment, and/or not knowing how to even tune their instruments, then "unskilled" and/or "unprepared" are most certainly appropriate descriptors.

It all goes to the heart behind the comment and the fruit it produces. You are absolutely biblically and practically incorrect to say that arranging music is not connected to a person's faith. My mentor has written hundreds of Christian songs over multiple decades many of which are still sung world-wide today, has a doctorate in divinity, has trained scores of musicians and he would kick you off the stage for saying something like that.

Now I agree that everything should be done with excellence and that is extremely important. But the heart to worship will always be more important. Perhaps if someone is continually not prepared the problem isn't musical, but it is in the heart and they shouldn't be on the stage in the first place, not because of skill level, but because they need to get their heart right.

 

[iluvatar5150]

You are absolutely biblically and practically incorrect to say that arranging music is not connected to a person's faith. My mentor has written hundreds of Christian songs over multiple decades many of which are still sung world-wide today, has a doctorate in divinity, has trained scores of musicians and he would kick you off the stage for saying something like that.

I disagree with your mentor. IMO/IME, a lot of people over-spiritualize what are, essentially, technical tasks related to church music. I see faith as being a separate sort of layer, abstracted from those tasks wherein faith drives the attitudes and motivations behind certain choices, but the details of the execution are separate.

 

[topher694]

I disagree with your mentor. IMO/IME, a lot of people over-spiritualize what are, essentially, technical tasks related to church music. I see faith as being a separate sort of layer, abstracted from those tasks wherein faith drives the attitudes and motivations behind certain choices, but the details of the execution are separate.

Well king David disagrees with you too, so there is that.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

After years of attending churches with light rock bands my wife and I perfer the old fashioned members sing along with piano.

Those old church lyrics are outstanding .
We are not there to be entertained but,
to worship God.

Is the focus on the band or God?

Maybe we should hear just a little less of the band's (maybe too loud) music and just a little more of the members singing.

M-Bob

 

[Slothman]

When , on another tread I was expressing my views on people 'serving' on worship teams without the ability, gifting or commitment someone told me.....
'Every praising voice is angelic to God'.
To which I responded...
Absolutely, please just don't give them all a microphone eh?

To be clear, I was talking about singing (or playing) in the worship band not in the congregation.
Point is, if I simply could not play an instrument you'd not want me on stage, plugged in and playing it live on a Sunday morning would you? Of course not and a voice is the same, an instrument.
If I truly wanted to play/sing but lacked ability or practice then I could play/practice to myself whilst learning in the privacy of my home or even take singing/guitar lessons rather than expect to just go straight into singing/paying during a service at church, so why can't 'aspiring' worship singers do the same.
If a minister could not speak or deliver a sermon or was terrible with people I'm sure he'd not make a good minister.
If you lacked dexterity or lacked balance you wouldn't expect to become a juggler or tightrope walker would you?
All I'm saying is that we all have gifts and a calling? Encouraging someone to sing/play when they clearly have not got the gift is ultimately unkind (to them) and will only lead to frustration (for everyone) it would be kinder to simply say 'Thank you for your desire to serve. However I don't think you are quiet there yet? Perhaps this is not your gift? However, if you are determined then perhaps you could practice, take some lessons and try again in a few months/year(s) and continue to pray into this, asking god to reveal his will for you?'....or something like that. This is a well known and respected approach by worship leaders to people wanting to sing who simply can't. You can't just accept anyone into the team regardless of ability.
They say that God does not always call the equipped but rather equips the called? Well then in either case if they don't have ability then clearly God has not equipped them and therefore it's clearly not their calling.
I'm all for people in the congregation singing their hearts out to the Lord, in fact it's part of a worship leaders job to inspire them to do so, but as a worship leader they're not getting on my team with a microphone unless they can actually sing.
We all know that God loves to hear anyone sing praises, regardless of their ability but as churches and specifically in this case a worship team, we have to give God our best offering and therefore there have to be some standards to get on the team. By saying it (ability) doesn't matter is one of the reasons why most local church worship is so appallingly bad.
It is proven that good, powerful and inspirational worship grows churches so lets not set low and lazy standards for our God and give less than 100% for he who gave it all for us?
If bad singers is all you have available then that's the best you can give but if you have good singers then why would you not use them to their fullest?
Let's not let our church become a Christian karaoke morning, a platform for the untalented to 'have a go' at the expense of everyone else's ears?
I do not mean to be unkind to anyone, some of my best friends are terrible singers but at least they know it and pursue their true gifting. I just want the best for my God and church.

 

[Slothman]

I also posted this link as the article perfectly explains what I'm talking about, imagine if the low standards or even lack of ability altogether was liberally applied to playing an instrument?...oh wait...it is

Handling Volunteers Who Just Can't Sing