What will be fundamentally different about the future millennial kingdom?

[RandyPNW]

What do you think has been binding Satan presently, that makes him unable to stop this?
Surely he wishes he could stop it, no? and would if he could, right? But as you say, he is presently unable to do so... So what's stopping him? What force do you believe is binding his ability to stop this right now?

I think God has set parameters, or boundaries, for Satan to act out his own will. If his will doesn't fit within God's plan of redemption for humanity it isn't allowed. A lot of wickedness is allowed by God as He tires to bring men to salvation. But the purpose of God is to save people, and Satan cannot stop that.

Don't you believe only a remnant will be saved, and not every single soul in the nation?

A nation is defined as a set of many parts, which are necessary to make a viable nation. These include things like people, natural resources, defense, etc. Half a nation would be like a large number of people with no ability to supply their own needs, provide a defense, or survive on their own.

I live in a state where half the state is metropolitan and consists of industry, technology, and commerce. But the other half of the state is agricultural. Both are needed to make my state viable.

Let's say Israel consists of 4 portions, norther, south, east and west. And the south is largely desert. If 3/4ths of Israel was destroyed, only leaving a desert in the south, would that mean that Israel got saved? No, it would only mean that a remnant was saved. God wants the whole nation to be saved--north, south, east, and west. This doesn't include every individual, but it includes all the component parts that makes the nation of Israel viable.

When God said that all Israel will be saved, he is talking about a complete viable nation, and not every single citizen in that state. So no, I don't believe every individual in a nation ever gets saved. I just believe that God sets up nations and wants them to endure and be blessed through the worship of the one true God.

Is this possible? Of course. It has certainly happened in the past, though it never lasts. But I believe a time is coming when Christian nations will last.

 

[keras]

So do live in an area where things are getting better and better?

I live in a small settlement, by the beach, close to a town of about 10,000 people, with all the facilities needed. Google- Te Puru
There is some crime of course, but my wife and I have never been affected. Oh; I did have some tools stolen a few years ago. The thief was caught and I received restitution.

I really do have difficulty in visualizing a better existence. But I am assured that the Millennium will be better and Eternity; the ultimate.

My point is that we are NOT in the little season where Satan is allowed to deceive many. Revelation 20:7-9 At the end of the Millennium.
We are still in the time when Satan can deceive those who allow it to happen and soon he will control the world, Daniel 7:23-24, Revelation 13:5-8, but just for 42 months.

 

[keras]

Is this possible? Of course. It has certainly happened in the past, though it never lasts. But I believe a time is coming when Christian nations will last.

It will be the new Christin nation of Beulah, in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26,+

 

[Hammster]

Psalms 47 and 48 surely do not apply to this age!

It looks like they applied to the age they were written.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I realize this thread is not about Zechariah 14, but if I am convinced Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning events that come to pass post the 2nd coming, and the fact there is sinning taking place at the time since they are being threatened with no rain if they refuse to come up, why wouldn't I want to apply this time period to the millennium? If I don't it adds up to exactly what you are seeing as totally unreasonable, where I agree it would be, it adds up to sinning continuing forever if eternity is meant in those verses rather than a period of time that has a beginning and an ending.

The more I think about it, maybe some of Zechariah 14 is relevant to this thread after all. In this age, meaning the last 2000 years in this case since Zechariah 14 obviously involves the last days, if one refuses to go up to worship the Lord, in any sense, they are not threatened nor punished with no rain for refusing to do so. During the millennium they would be, which might at least address one of the questions asked----"Why will Christ’s mere physical presence 10,000+ miles away make mankind significantly more obedient, when they refuse to obey Him as God today?"----if one is being threatened with plagues for not complying though they might be thousands of miles away at the time, that alone could convince them into becoming more obedient rather than remaining rebellious the entire length of the millennium.

I have no idea why you said this to me in response to me questioning someone about thinking that sin will continue to happen forever.

And you know I disagree with your interpretation of Zechariah 14, anyway. So, this response to what I said is baffling, to say the least.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Since I at least still tend to agree that he was likely cast out of heaven 2000 years ago rather than it still being an event in the future, I just don't see being bound and being wrathful at the same time, being compatable with each other.

That's because of the literal way you interpret that symbolic passage.

I've already explained to you several times that the symbolism does not have to resemble what it represents in reality, but you just don't get that.

I gave the example of how the symbolic harlot woman who sits on many waters and rides the beast with seven heads and ten horns does not resemble a literal woman sitting on many waters while riding a beast with seven heads and ten horns at all in reality. So, why does a dragon being chained up in a pit or prison have to represent someone being literally chained up and unable to do anything?

If he already has great wrath while he is supposed to be bound, what kind of wrath does he have once he is loosed? Even greater wrath, wrath greater than great wrath?

Can you show me where it says he would be bound from persecuting believers? It doesn't. So, the only reason you are thinking that he can't be bound and still take out his wrath is because of your literal understanding of a figurative passage. But, the fact is that it doesn't say he is bound from taking out his wrath on people.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Have some common sense.
Things are very little different today from what they always have been.
Worse maybe, with the better communications we have now, better maybe, with the Gospel spread more widely via better communications.

You have even less spiritual discernment than I thought. Do you live in a cave? How many mass shootings were there 40 or 50 years ago and before that? How about in the last 30 years or so? You don't see any difference there? Or are you even aware of things like that?

More and more people are becoming part of the LGBTQ community and homosexuality is becoming more and more accepted as time goes on. But, nothing has changed?

Abortion, which is the killing of unborn human babies, became legal in America, a large country that puts "In God We Trust" on its currency, in 1973. Abortion is legal in over 1/3 of the countries in the world. That is only something that has occurred in the last 100 years or so. But, nothing has changed?

What is your excuse for being so ignorant? Is it because you spend all your time focusing on physical disasters, so you don't have any time to look at what is happening spiritually and morally in the world?

I live in a small settlement, by the beach, close to a town of about 10,000 people, with all the facilities needed. Google- Te Puru
There is some crime of course, but my wife and I have never been affected. Oh; I did have some tools stolen a few years ago. The thief was caught and I received restitution.

I really do have difficulty in visualizing a better existence. But I am assured that the Millennium will be better and Eternity; the ultimate.

My point is that we are NOT in the little season where Satan is allowed to deceive many. Revelation 20:7-9 At the end of the Millennium.
We are still in the time when Satan can deceive those who allow it to happen and soon he will control the world, Daniel 7:23-24, Revelation 13:5-8, but just for 42 months.

Do you think your small settlement by the beach or your small town represents what is happening in the entire world? Open your eyes.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I live in a small settlement, by the beach, close to a town of about 10,000 people, with all the facilities needed. Google- Te Puru
There is some crime of course, but my wife and I have never been affected. Oh; I did have some tools stolen a few years ago. The thief was caught and I received restitution.

I really do have difficulty in visualizing a better existence. But I am assured that the Millennium will be better and Eternity; the ultimate.

My point is that we are NOT in the little season where Satan is allowed to deceive many. Revelation 20:7-9 At the end of the Millennium.
We are still in the time when Satan can deceive those who allow it to happen and soon he will control the world, Daniel 7:23-24, Revelation 13:5-8, but just for 42 months.

So, you are largely protected from the real world. Maybe if you were a Police Officer in Northern Ireland for 15 years, a Pastor on an Indian Reservation, do a bit of travelling to some inner cities, or if you started watching the news on TV, you would think different.

I am surprised with your attitude that you are not Postmil; after all, millennial bliss seems to have already arrived for you already.

 

[parousia70]

What in the world? Do you think that sin will just go on happening forever?

Seems by the below, you do as well.

They will be in the lake of fire which is where all whose names are not written in the book of life will be (Rev 20:14-15). You think that will be located on the new earth?

Your objection apparently has more to do with the LOCATION of the eternal continuation of Sin and Suffering than with the eternal continuation of Sin and Suffering itself, which you apparently agree continues to exist forever.

Why are you taking the city's gates so literally in a highly symbolic book, anyway?

I'm not. I'm saying this is the situation today.
The gates of the city are open TODAY, and the spirit and bride are TODAY calling out to anyone outside who thirsts to come in and drink. (which would make absolutely ZERO sense if everyone is already saved, for who would the "thirsty" be that the spirit and bride be callign to?? For "one drink and ye shall never thirst again" - The saved no longer thirst)

And those outside who are practicing liars, sorcerers, etc are not able to enter TODAY.

This is TODAY'S reality.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Seems by the below, you do as well.

Based on what? How can people sin if they are in the lake of fire?

Your objection apparently has more to do with the LOCATION of the eternal continuation of Sin and Suffering than with the eternal continuation fo Sin and Suffering itself, which you agree continues to exist forever.

How am I agreeing with that? Explain that. Don't put words in my mouth. How does being in the lake of fire mean they can continue to sin? What exactly do you think they will be able to do there?

I'm not. I'm saying this is the situation today.
The gates of the city are open TODAY, and the spirit and bride are TODAY calling out to anyone outside who thirsts to come in and drink.

And those outside who are practicing liars, sorcerers, etc are not able to enter TODAY.

This is TODAY'S reality.

Oh brother. I forgot that you're almost a full preterist. I'm not going to argue with you about this nonsense. The day of judgment has clearly not yet come. Have you stood before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of yourself yet? No, I didn't think so. And neither has anyone else. The day of judgment will occur when Christ returns in the future (Matthew 25:31-46).

 

[parousia70]

Based on what? How can people sin if they are in the lake of fire?

Sin is a state of Being, friend. The Baby is born in a state of Sin instantly, Instantly REQUIRING Salvation by the Shed Blood of Jesus for it's Sin, regardless of any actions on it's part. You surely agree?
Those in the lake of fire suffer IN THEIR SIN, forever.

How am I agreeing with that? Explain that. Don't put words in my mouth. How does being in the lake of fire mean they can continue to sin? What exactly do you think they will be able to do there?

See above. You agree the Unsaved Suffer IN THEIR SIN, Forever.

Oh brother. I forgot that you're almost a full preterist. I'm not going to argue with you about this nonsense. The day of judgment has clearly not yet come. Have you stood before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of yourself yet? No, I didn't think so. And neither has anyone else.

Fair enough.

 

[DavidPT]

Based on what? How can people sin if they are in the lake of fire?

You obviously haven't thought some of this all the way through. If someone were cursing God throughout eternity because of the suffering they were experiencing, for example, something like that to you does not qualify as sinning? Or do you think satan nor anyone would be cursing God for having cast them them into the LOF, where we are told, in satan's case, he shall be tormented day and night forever and ever? Do you perhaps instead think they will be praising God, shouting blessings to God rather than shouting curses to God? IOW, will there be any blaspheming of God while being punished in the LOF? Is blaspheming God a sin or not?

 

[parousia70]

You obviously haven't thought some of this all the way through. If someone were cursing God throughout eternity because of the suffering they were experiencing, for example, something like that to you does not qualify as sinning? Or do you think satan nor anyone would be cursing God for having cast them them into the LOF, where we are told, in satan's case, he shall be tormented day and night forever and ever? Do you perhaps instead think they will be praising God, shouting blessings to God rather than shouting curses to God? IOW, will there be any blaspheming of God while being punished in the LOF? Is blaspheming God a sin or not?

Exactly.
I'ts only the Universalists and the Annhilationists who truly believe in the eventual END of Sin and Suffering.
All other Christians, by necessity, must agree that Sin and Suffering continue, Forever and Ever and are NEVER Eradicated from existence.

 

[sovereigngrace]

You obviously haven't thought some of this all the way through. If someone were cursing God throughout eternity because of the suffering they were experiencing, for example, something like that to you does not qualify as sinning? Or do you think satan nor anyone would be cursing God for having cast them them into the LOF, where we are told, in satan's case, he shall be tormented day and night forever and ever? Do you perhaps instead think they will be praising God, shouting blessings to God rather than shouting curses to God? IOW, will there be any blaspheming of God while being punished in the LOF? Is blaspheming God a sin or not?

Instead of asking presumptive questions, please present your evidence that they are "shouting curses to God" for all eternity?

 

[parousia70]

Instead of asking presumptive questions, please present your evidence that they are "shouting curses to God" for all eternity?

Irrelevant.
Sin, as a STATE OF BEING, is never eradicated (unless you are a Universalist or Annihilationist) and the eternal contiunation of Suffering, in that State of Sin, while in the LOF, is most assuredly testified in scripture.

However, to your question, who do you say these people are?:
Revelation 22:15
15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Who, at this pont in time, AFTER the GWTJ, actively "loves and practices" a lie, as Scripture testifies they do?

How do you reconcile this scripture with a belief that it will be impossible to actively "love and practice a lie" (which ARE Sins) while in the LOF?

 

[3 Resurrections]

There is a fundamental problem with the wording of this post's title. It presumes that the millennium is in our future. It's not.

The internal evidence of Revelation reveals that the millennium is definitely in the past, and lets us know exactly WHEN it already ended. The conditions present in that millennium are a subject that can be discussed separately from this dating issue.

There were two things that Revelation says would occur simultaneously with the ending of the millennium period.

#1) Satan would be loosed for only a "little season" of time when the millennium "expired" (Rev. 20:3 and 7).
#2) The "remnant of the dead" called the "First Resurrection" would "live again" when the millennium was "finished" (Rev. 20:5).

In Revelation 12:12, John told his readers of those days that Satan in great wrath was already loosed for a "short time" to persecute the inhabitants of the earth and the sea. "....the Devil is come down unto you" (present tense for that time), "having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

That Rev. 20:5 "remnant of the dead" coming to life again was called "the FIRST resurrection". We are told in 1 Cor. 15:20 and 23 that Christ was the "FIRST-fruits". Christ's resurrection as the "FIRST-fruits" composed that "FIRST resurrection", as well as the 144,000 "FIRST-fruits" who were the Matthew 27:52-53 saints that Christ resurrected along with Himself. This "remnant of the dead" - the 144,000 "FIRST-fruits" - shared the same title as Christ did, because those Jewish tribal members simultaneously shared the same experience that day of coming out of their graves in Jerusalem when Christ raised them.

If both of these two qualifiers above dating the end of the millennium have already been fulfilled in AD 33, then we can conclude that the literal thousand-year millennium is a PAST period of history, ever since AD 33.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Sin is a state of Being, friend. The Baby is born in a state of Sin instantly, Instantly REQUIRING Salvation by the Shed Blood of Jesus for it's Sin, regardless of any actions on it's part. You surely agree?
Those in the lake of fire suffer IN THEIR SIN, forever.

They are not actually going to be sinning there, friend.

See above. You agree the Unsaved Suffer IN THEIR SIN, Forever.

Is that what we were talking about? You were talking about people actually continuing to sin forever. That is what I disagree with.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You obviously haven't thought some of this all the way through.

Yes, I have. I don't appreciate your false accusation.

If someone were cursing God throughout eternity because of the suffering they were experiencing, for example, something like that to you does not qualify as sinning?

Where does it say that they will be doing that? Show me. Don't make claims without any evidence to back it up. You know better than that.

Or do you think satan nor anyone would be cursing God for having cast them them into the LOF, where we are told, in satan's case, he shall be tormented day and night forever and ever? Do you perhaps instead think they will be praising God, shouting blessings to God rather than shouting curses to God? IOW, will there be any blaspheming of God while being punished in the LOF? Is blaspheming God a sin or not?

We don't know what it will be like for them. You can speculate all you want, but that's all you have.

Do you know that they all will be bowing down to God and acknowledging Him on judgment day (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:10-12, Phillippians 2:10)? It seems to me that they will realize that it's their own fault that they are in the lake of fire and they won't be able to deny that and will know that they can't blame God for it. They will experience regret for not repenting when they had the chance.

Also, this isn't really what I was talking about, anyway. I'm talking about them going around and continuing to commit sins as they always have and doing that on the new earth. That is is how parousia70 understands it because he doesn't see being cast into the lake of fire as a future thing but as a current reality instead.

 

[DavidPT]

Exactly.
I'ts only the Universalists and the Annhilationists who truly believe in the eventual END of Sin and Suffering.
All other Christians, by necessity, must agree that Sin and Suffering continue, Forever and Ever and are NEVER Eradicated from existence.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


It is unreasonable to assume that the one meant here only does this in this age, but once the one meant here is cast into the LOF though, he no longer opens his mouth in blasphemy against God ever again. Granted, some forms of sinning would not be taking place, such as murder, stealing, so on and so on. But that's irrelevant if those being punished are cursing God, since that would obviously qualify as sinning, thus sinning undeniably continues throughout all of eternity if one concludes that eternal conscious torment is what the Bible is teaching.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Irrelevant.
Sin, as a STATE OF BEING, is never eradicated (unless you are a Universalist or Annihilationist) and the eternal contiunation of Suffering, in that State of Sin, while in the LOF, is most assuredly testified in scripture.

However, to your question, who do you say these people are?:
Revelation 22:15
15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Who, at this pont in time, AFTER the GWTJ, actively "loves and practices" a lie, as Scripture testifies they do?

How do you reconcile this scripture with a belief that it will be impossible to actively "love and practice a lie" (which ARE Sins) while in the LOF?

That is talking about those who love and practice a lie during this temporary lifetime being cast into the lake of fire at the GWTJ. Where are you getting the idea that they will love and practice lies after being cast into the lake of fire? You're reading things into the text that aren't there.