What will be fundamentally different about the future millennial kingdom?

[RandyPNW]

I hope that this doesn’t come off as rude, but I’m not exactly sure which questions you answered.

If you don't know, you don't know.
It may be that you don't think a reduction in international war is not a big thing, or that Satan himself is not around to make things worse for us all? Perhaps the problem is that we don't know a whole lot about Satan, and what the effect will be with him bound?

But the fulfillment of God's promises by restoring Israel, as a nation, and rendering them a *Christian nation,* is a big thing, in my view. And Christian nations standing their ground, instead of collapsing into tolerance of paganism, and into a dilution of doctrine, or an excess of libertinism in a Christian nation, are big things to me.

 

[DavidPT]

This view eliminates any personal responsibility for the sinning to the sinner.
And If it were that easy, why not just throw him into the LOF straight from the garden?

Why Let him force people to sin for millennia?

If People are, on their own, incapable of sinning without Satan being behind it or influencing them in any way, (which appears to be your contention) why Keep him around at all, if a world full of sinless people is the goal, and simply eliminating him will instantly achieve that goal?

I don't really have a position I'm promoting here, I'm just asking questions is all. I'm basically trying to reason through some of these things out loud, so to speak.

What scripture teaches this?

Why would one need a Scripture to tell us that when it seems plainly obvious that it will be impossible for anyone dwelling upon the face of the earth to sin after the time of the great white throne judgment? If it is possible instead, how is it going to be dealt with throughout eternity, that since saved immortals can still sin, that some might even do that?

It then boils down to, assuming one accepts that there will be no one sinning upon the earth after the time of the great white throne judgment, is one reason there will be no more sinning is because satan and his demons won't be whispering in anyone's ear any longer?

 

[Hammster]

Just to clarify. This is the question:

For those who hold to a future millennial kingdom, what will be different?

These are the questions that clarify the question:

Why will people be more obedient to God during the earthly millennial rule of Christ?

Why will an international bureaucracy be able to make men behave according to God’s law?

Why will Christ’s mere physical presence 10,000+ miles away make mankind significantly more obedient, when they refuse to obey Him as God today?

 

[parousia70]

Why would one need a Scripture to tell us that when it seems plainly obvious that it will be impossible for anyone dwelling upon the face of the earth to sin after the time of the great white throne judgment?

Well, if that's your contention, you need a scripture to back it up becasue we already have this scripture testifying these people ARE dwelling on the new earth, Just outside of the Gates of the New Jerusalem, after the GWTJ:

Revelation 22:15
15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

If you are going to argue that this scripture does not mean what it says, You, at the very least, need some other scripture that teaches the opposite, which you apparently don't have.

It then boils down to, assuming one accepts that there will be no one sinning upon the earth after the time of the great white throne judgment,

Anyone accepting that is doing so In absense of ANY scripture that teaches such.

is one reason there will be no more sinning is because satan and his demons won't be whispering in anyone's ear any longer?

Again, this boils down to you saying Human Beings are incapable of Sinning without Satan being behind it or influencing them.

Scripture teaches the opposite.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What scripture teaches this?

If that's true what are these people doing on the new earth, after the GWTJ, just outside the city's gates?:

Revelation 22:15
15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

What in the world? Do you think that sin will just go on happening forever? God forbid! Why are you taking the city's gates so literally in a highly symbolic book, anyway?

The following verse tells us where people like those described in Revelation 22:15 will be:

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

They will be in the lake of fire which is where all whose names are not written in the book of life will be (Rev 20:14-15). You think that will be located on the new earth?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It all boils down to what time period is meant in Revelation 20:1. Is the time period meaning during the 2nd coming or is the time period involving something that initially took place 2000 years ago? If the former, what you are proposing doesn't make sense. If the latter, what you are proposing does somewhat tend to make sense, thus could maybe fit in that case. Amils of course see the time period involving something that took place 2000 years ago, and that Premils don't. One clue in the text involved is that the angel has to come down to the earth in order to do this, obviously because that is where satan is dwelling at the time. This should at least tell us the time period is meaning after the war in heaven and after satan has been cast unto the earth having great wrath. The question then is, is he bound at the beginning of his great wrath, or is he bound at the end of his great wrath? To me the latter makes better sense.

Does it say he is bound from persecuting believers and taking his wrath out on them, though? You're acting as if that is what he is bound from doing, but it doesn't say that.

It makes sense to me that something has changed drastically in regards to Satan when he is cast out of heaven. So, it makes much more sense to me that the timing of his binding would be related to when he is cast out of heaven instead of some time thousands of years later.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It all boils down to what time period is meant in Revelation 20:1. Is the time period meaning during the 2nd coming or is the time period involving something that initially took place 2000 years ago? If the former, what you are proposing doesn't make sense. If the latter, what you are proposing does somewhat tend to make sense, thus could maybe fit in that case. Amils of course see the time period involving something that took place 2000 years ago, and that Premils don't. One clue in the text involved is that the angel has to come down to the earth in order to do this, obviously because that is where satan is dwelling at the time. This should at least tell us the time period is meaning after the war in heaven and after satan has been cast unto the earth having great wrath. The question then is, is he bound at the beginning of his great wrath, or is he bound at the end of his great wrath? To me the latter makes better sense.

We could well be at Satan's little season, by the way the world is quickly going. The restraint seems to be off the mystery of iniquity.

 

[keras]

What part leads you to believe that this is the millennial kingdom?

Psalms 47 and 48 surely do not apply to this age!

 

[keras]

We could well be at Satan's little season, by the way the world is quickly going. The restraint seems to be off the mystery of iniquity.

Have some common sense.
Things are very little different today from what they always have been.
Worse maybe, with the better communications we have now, better maybe, with the Gospel spread more widely via better communications.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Have some common sense.
Things are very little different today from what they always have been.
Worse maybe, with the better communications we have now, better maybe, with the Gospel spread more widely via better communications.

Really? What planet do you live on? Do you watch TV? Do you go out of the house? Society globally is in free-fall.

 

[Jay Sea]

Simple answer: Satan and his minions won't be around to deceive and lead people astray.
As Isaiah 65:18-25, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14:16-221, +, describe; it will be a time of great Blessings.

Why do people keep blaming Satan for man's own failings. We don't need Satan to muck things up. We do a great job of that. Isn't about time to accept responsibility for our own sin so we can with G-d's help grow in love and in his way.
In LOve
Jay Sea

 

[DavidPT]

What in the world? Do you think that sin will just go on happening forever? God forbid! Why are you taking the city's gates so literally in a highly symbolic book, anyway?

I realize this thread is not about Zechariah 14, but if I am convinced Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning events that come to pass post the 2nd coming, and the fact there is sinning taking place at the time since they are being threatened with no rain if they refuse to come up, why wouldn't I want to apply this time period to the millennium? If I don't it adds up to exactly what you are seeing as totally unreasonable, where I agree it would be, it adds up to sinning continuing forever if eternity is meant in those verses rather than a period of time that has a beginning and an ending.

The more I think about it, maybe some of Zechariah 14 is relevant to this thread after all. In this age, meaning the last 2000 years in this case since Zechariah 14 obviously involves the last days, if one refuses to go up to worship the Lord, in any sense, they are not threatened nor punished with no rain for refusing to do so. During the millennium they would be, which might at least address one of the questions asked----"Why will Christ’s mere physical presence 10,000+ miles away make mankind significantly more obedient, when they refuse to obey Him as God today?"----if one is being threatened with plagues for not complying though they might be thousands of miles away at the time, that alone could convince them into becoming more obedient rather than remaining rebellious the entire length of the millennium.

 

[DavidPT]

Are you saying that you think the lack of sin will solely be because of Satan and his demons not being there? Are you sure you understand what James 1:14-15 says? I'm not convinced. Do you believe someone can sin even without Satan or a demon tempting them or not?

It seems to me that the reason we won't sin after the GWTJ and the new heavens and new earth are ushered in is because we will be made incorruptible at that point (1 Cor 15:50-54). We won't be capable of sinning anymore at that point.

I'm not suggesting it would be the sole reason, but it would be one of the reasons. Hypothetical of course---If God decided not to cast satan and his demons into the LOF, but instead allowed them to dwell among man forever, would eternity play out the same way that it would have if God instead cast satan his demons into the LOF, thus preventing satan and his demons from having any influence over anyone for all eternity?

 

[DavidPT]

It makes sense to me that something has changed drastically in regards to Satan when he is cast out of heaven. So, it makes much more sense to me that the timing of his binding would be related to when he is cast out of heaven instead of some time thousands of years later.

Since I at least still tend to agree that he was likely cast out of heaven 2000 years ago rather than it still being an event in the future, I just don't see being bound and being wrathful at the same time, being compatable with each other. If he already has great wrath while he is supposed to be bound, what kind of wrath does he have once he is loosed? Even greater wrath, wrath greater than great wrath?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Since I at least still tend to agree that he was likely cast out of heaven 2000 years ago rather than it still being an event in the future, I just don't see being bound and being wrathful at the same time, being compatable with each other. If he already has great wrath while he is supposed to be bound, what kind of wrath does he have once he is loosed? Even greater wrath, wrath greater than great wrath?

Really? I believe you are being totally disingenuous.

Are the wicked depicted in Scripture as being in chains and incarcerated?
Can they be wrathful?
Can a nasty dog on a chain be wrathful?
Can dangerous prisoners locked up in a maximum security prison be wrathful?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I realize this thread is not about Zechariah 14, but if I am convinced Zechariah 14:16-19 is meaning events that come to pass post the 2nd coming, and the fact there is sinning taking place at the time since they are being threatened with no rain if they refuse to come up, why wouldn't I want to apply this time period to the millennium? If I don't it adds up to exactly what you are seeing as totally unreasonable, where I agree it would be, it adds up to sinning continuing forever if eternity is meant in those verses rather than a period of time that has a beginning and an ending.

The more I think about it, maybe some of Zechariah 14 is relevant to this thread after all. In this age, meaning the last 2000 years in this case since Zechariah 14 obviously involves the last days, if one refuses to go up to worship the Lord, in any sense, they are not threatened nor punished with no rain for refusing to do so. During the millennium they would be, which might at least address one of the questions asked----"Why will Christ’s mere physical presence 10,000+ miles away make mankind significantly more obedient, when they refuse to obey Him as God today?"----if one is being threatened with plagues for not complying though they might be thousands of miles away at the time, that alone could convince them into becoming more obedient rather than remaining rebellious the entire length of the millennium.

Could you be the first Premil to do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)? I see no correlation!

 

[DavidPT]

Really? I believe you are being totally disingenuous.

Are the wicked depicted in Scripture as being in chains and incarcerated?
Can they be wrathful?
Can a nasty dog on a chain be wrathful?
Can dangerous prisoners locked up in a maximum security prison be wrathful?

The first thing to note is how the text in Revelation 20 depicts his binding.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Let's picture a real world scenario. Let's suppose there is a dungeon, like the following. Actually, let's use this as the real world scenario since the events recorded actually literally took place.

Jeremiah 38:6 Then took they Jeremiah, and cast him into the dungeon of Malchiah the son of Hammelech, that was in the court of the prison: and they let down Jeremiah with cords. And in the dungeon there was no water, but mire: so Jeremiah sunk in the mire.
7 Now when Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, one of the eunuchs which was in the king's house, heard that they had put Jeremiah in the dungeon; the king then sitting in the gate of Benjamin;

Does it look like in this account, that to Jeremiah, or even those that placed him there, this would be like him being a dog on a leash that can still harm someone if they get within the length of his leash? Does it look like, even if Jeremiah was being wrathful at the time, that being wrathful would even benefit him any? Who is he supposed to take the wrath out upon while sinking in the mire? The ones that placed him there? He for sure could be thinking bad thoughts in his mind at the time, yet he obviously couldn't act upon any of them, though. At least not while in that situation.

In Revelation 20:1-3 it depicts satan being in a similar situation. The nations would represent the outside world, in relation to the pit. And since the text tells us that satan can't deceive the nations any more while in the pit, this represents having zero interaction with the outside world at the time. It is not until he is loosed from the pit that he then once again has interactions with the outside world.

Amils apparently must think, though the Bible uses real world imagery in some cases, what is depicted via the imagery is not even based on real world scenarios that make sense, but are based on real world scenarios that are not even possible. An example of real world imagery----a lion walking about seeking whom it might devour. In a real world scenario it is impossible, that if this same lion is trapped in a pit in the ground that it also can be freely roaming about outside of the pit at the same time. Yet, Amils interpretation of satan's binding and 1 Peter 5:8 doesn't even remotely match a real world scenario making sense, but instead matches a real world scenario that is not even possible.

 

[keras]

Really? What planet do you live on? Do you watch TV? Do you go out of the house? Society globally is in free-fall.

I do not live where you do. Thank the Lord.

Why do people keep blaming Satan for man's own failings. We don't need Satan to muck things up. We do a great job of that. Isn't about time to accept responsibility for our own sin so we can with G-d's help grow in love and in his way.
In LOve
Jay Sea

People do lie, steal, fornicate, etc. This has always been the case.
But there are cases of demonic possession, Hitler, axe murderers, etc.
1 Peter 5:8-9 warns us to stand up against the devil, or be devoured by him.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The first thing to note is how the text in Revelation 20 depicts his binding.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Let's picture a real world scenario. Let's suppose there is a dungeon, like the following. Actually, let's use this as the real world scenario since the events recorded actually literally took place.

Jeremiah 38:6 Then took they Jeremiah, and cast him into the dungeon of Malchiah the son of Hammelech, that was in the court of the prison: and they let down Jeremiah with cords. And in the dungeon there was no water, but mire: so Jeremiah sunk in the mire.
7 Now when Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, one of the eunuchs which was in the king's house, heard that they had put Jeremiah in the dungeon; the king then sitting in the gate of Benjamin;

Does it look like in this account, that to Jeremiah, or even those that placed him there, this would be like him being a dog on a leash that can still harm someone if they get within the length of his leash? Does it look like, even if Jeremiah was being wrathful at the time, that being wrathful would even benefit him any? Who is he supposed to take the wrath out upon while sinking in the mire? The ones that placed him there? He for sure could be thinking bad thoughts in his mind at the time, yet he obviously couldn't act upon any of them, though. At least not while in that situation.

In Revelation 20:1-3 it depicts satan being in a similar situation. The nations would represent the outside world, in relation to the pit. And since the text tells us that satan can't deceive the nations any more while in the pit, this represents having zero interaction with the outside world at the time. It is not until he is loosed from the pit that he then once again has interactions with the outside world.

Amils apparently must think, though the Bible uses real world imagery in some cases, what is depicted via the imagery is not even based on real world scenarios that make sense, but are based on real world scenarios that are not even possible.

Can you not see that we are looking at plain and obvious symbolism? It is the dragon that is bound. It is a symbolism that you overlook. The imprisoning dragon is a symbolism for the spiritual restraint on Satan. You must believe Satan is a literal dragon. That might explain why you are not getting it!

 

[sovereigngrace]

I do not live where you do. Thank the Lord.

People do lie, steal, fornicate, etc. This has always been the case.
But there are cases of demonic possession, Hitler, axe murderers, etc.
1 Peter 5:8-9 warns us to stand up against the devil, or be devoured by him.

So do live in an area where things are getting better and better?