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Featured What was the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by iamlamad, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    Iamlamad, thank you, for finally providing something that puts your "timing" theory into context. It's what I was asking for in one of my earlier posts.

    I'm not even going to try to dissuade you from the erroneous belief by some that the rider on the white horse is Jesus Christ because I know by now that you'll summarily dismiss any attempt to right that wrong. And that would be especially futile in light of the never-before-heard theory of yours that the white horse in Revelation 6 is Jesus Christ sending out the church with the gospel. That's definitely a new one for me.

    It does beg the question, however, from just where do these very unique interpretations of yours come from?

    But this new revelation (pun intended LOL) of yours does help to explain your view of Revelation 4 and 5. And, for that, I thank you.
     
  2. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    How can Jesus be opening the seals and at the same time be in one of the seals? Of course we know that with God all things are possible, but here, it is very very improbable.

    I guess I don't know anyone that thinks the first seal is Jesus. I have never said the first seal was Jesus. What I have said for years is that the first seal is the represent the CHURCH sent out with the gospel. Seals 2 through 4 then are to represent Satan's attempts to stop the advance of the church. Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. They are told they are going to have to wait for the full number to come in.

    Then the 6th trumpet begins the wrath of God in the Day of the Lord. This belief is no erroneous. It is the only theory that fits. Chapters 4 & 5 take us in time to the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. That timing is going to be very close to 32 AD. What was the first thing Jesus did upon ascending into the throne room? He arrived with the Holy Spirit but instantly sent Him down. Then He got the book and began opening the seals.

    Leaving the first seal then in its first century context, one can see that any theory of the first seal as some event future to us today must be erroneous. It would be pulling the first seal out of its context.

    I guess you don't read Commentaries.

    Matthew Henry Commentary:
    A rider on a white horse. By the going forth of this white horse, a time of peace, or the early progress of the Christian religion, seems to be intended; its going forth in purity, at the time when its heavenly Founder sent his apostles to teach all nations, adding, Lo! I am with you alway, even to the end of the world.

    Gill's Commentary:
    And I saw, and behold a white horse,.... Representing the ministration of the Gospel in the times of the apostles, which were just now finishing, John being the last of them, who saw this vision; and the "horse" being a swift, majestic, and warlike creature, and fearless of opposition and war, may design the swift progress of the Gospel in the world, the majesty, power, and authority with which it came, and opposition it met with, and which was bore down before it; and its "white" colour may denote the purity of Gospel truths, the peace it proclaims, the joy brings, and the triumph that attends it, on account of victories obtained by it, and which is afterwards suggested...

    Clarke Commentary:
    A white horse - Supposed to represent the Gospel system, and pointing out its excellence, swiftness, and purity.

    Several Commentaries had the rider on the white horse to be Jesus.

    John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - and every other time to represent righteousness. It would see terrible exegesis to take one out of 17 and make it represent anything evil.

    For the Bow, Strong's or Young's - I forget which one - has the bow as a simple ribbon! The Greek word translated bow is TOXON, from which we get "toxic." It probably came from the poison they put on the arrows. How anyone could come up with a simple ribbon here escapes me. Perhaps it is only to represent a weapon. The church has weapons but they are spiritual. The idea of overcoming and to overcome give the idea of complete and final victory. This certainly does not fit the Antichrist. It DOES FIT the gospel! (Note: the Greek word translated as conquering was usually translated as "overcome.")

    Another note: there is not ONE WORD in the description of this first seal that would even hint of anything evil. One would have to read with preconceived glasses to find anything evil here.

    finally, when we consider the context, that is the timing of 32 AD: the moment Jesus ascended and sent the holy Spirit down, when we consider white for righteousness, it seems the ONLY entity on earth that was righteous in 32 AD was the infant church.

    It is possible then that the horse and rider represent the church, but the bow represents the gospel.
     
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  3. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Where did I come by this theory? I am not to blame! I did not want to study Revelation anyway - but the Holy Spirit pushed me into it. Then one day He began to speak to me in words I both heard (they sounded audible) and understood. He usually taught by asking questions I could not answer!

    He asked my why John did not see Jesus at the right hand of the Father when we have over a dozen verses telling us that is where He should have been seen.

    He asked me why the Holy Spirit was there in chapter 4, when in 95 AD we would expect Him to have been sent down.

    He asked me why that first search ended in failure when John wrote "no man was found." He said that if I read ahead HE was found worthy.

    I could not answer any of these questions. I puzzled over them for weeks. Finally God sent me to chapter 12 to find the answers - and it worked; I did find the answers.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  4. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    Interesting. I knew there are plenty who erroneously believe the rider of the white horse is Jesus, but I will admit I had no idea that there were commentaries erroneously espousing some kind of gospel or church attribute to the white horse. I guess I don't spend much time reading false biblical notions.

    One commentator I do read and like is David Guzik, featured at Blue Letter Bible. I think he pretty much nails the problem of attributing to Jesus what is Satan's work (the textbook definition of blasphemy, by the way). Blue Letter Bible color emphasis; not mine.

    c. Behold, a white horse: If one were to take their interpretive clues more from cowboy movies than from the Bible, it would be easy to believe the rider on the white horse is Jesus. Jesus does return on a white horse in Revelation 19:11-16; but this is a satanic dictator who imitates Jesus.

    i. He rules (a crown was given); he rules with a bow, not a sword; and he exercises dominion over the earth (went out conquering and to conquer). But the results of his rule, as described in the following verses, show clearly that this is not the reign of Jesus.

    ii. “The whole context and character of these seals absolutely forbid our thinking of this rider being the Lord Jesus, as so many affirm. His reign shall not bring war, famine, and strife in its train.” (Jennings)

    iii. Here we reach an interpretive crossroads of the Book of Revelation. You can tell much about how a person understands this book and God’s prophetic plan by seeing how they understand this first rider. Those who think Revelation is mostly a book of history believe that this rider is Jesus, the apostles, or the Roman emperors. Those who believe that this is a prophetic passage, yet to be fulfilled, often account this rider to be the antichrist.​

    The whole plan of the antichrist is to imitates Jesus, to fool people into believing that he IS God! In Greek, the prefix "anti" can have the meaning "instead of." Satan is the great deceiver, and the antichrist whom he embodies imitates Christ in many ways, fooling those who would be easily deceived.

    I like what he says about this passage being an "interpretive crossroads of the Book of Revelation." I have found that to be so true since spending time here at CF. It all comes down to a person's hermeneutical approach to Scripture.

    At least I now have a full understanding of where you are coming from in your own interpretations.
     
  5. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Jesus appears as Son of God, the Lamb of God and Son of Man in Revelation.

    Jesus is shown as a "slaughtered Lambkin" when taking the book of Seals.

    Here is Daniel:

    Dan 7:10
    A flood of fire is proceeding and coming forth from before Him, a thousand thousands do serve Him, and a myriad of myriads before Him do rise up, the Judge is seated, and the books have been opened.
    Dan 7:13
    'I was seeing in the visions of the night, and lo, with the clouds of the heavens as a son of man was one coming, and unto the Ancient of Days he hath come, and before Him they have brought him near. Revelation 12:5]
    ========================================
    Here is Jesus proclaiming going to the Father:

    John 17:11
    And not still I am in the world, and these in the world are,
    and I toward/proV <4314> Thee am coming......[Revelation 12:5]

    Here He dies on the Cross"

    John 19:30 When then Jesus had received/got the vinegar, He said "it has been finished!/tetelestai <5055> (5769)". And reclining the head He gives-up the spirit.

    Then He appeared for forty days before being taken up:

    Acts 1:
    1The former account, indeed, I made concerning all things, O Theophilus, that Jesus began both to do and to teach, 2till the day in which, having given command, through the Holy Spirit, to the apostles whom he did choose out, he was taken up, 3to whom also he did present himself alive after his suffering, in many certain proofs, through forty days being seen by them, and speaking the things concerning the reign of God.
    9 And these saying, of them looking,
    He was lifted-up <1869> and a cloud took-up Him from their sight.

    Proclaiming Himself alive to the ages of ages:

    Acts 1:
    9 And these saying, of them looking,
    He was lifted-up <1869> and a cloud took-up<5274> Him from their sight.
    11 who also say, "men! Galileans!<1057>, why ye stand looking into the heaven/sky?
    =========================================
    Proclaiming Himself alive to the ages of ages:

    Revelation 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead, and behold,
    I am living into the Ages of the Ages, and I am having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death

    Jesus being taking up toward the Father:

    Revelation 12:5
    And she brought forth a Son, a male, Who is about to be shepherding<4165> all the nations in rod/staff, iron.
    And is caught-away the Child of her toward<4314> the God, and toward the throne of Him. [Daniel 7:13]

    Jesus proclaims Himself Son of God

    Rev 1:13

    and in the midst of the seven lamp-stands, one like to a son of man, clothed to the foot, and girt round at the breast with a golden girdle,

    Rev 2:18

    'And to the messenger of the assembly of Thyatira write: These things saith the Son of God, who is having his eyes as a flame of fire, and his feet like to fine brass;

    Rev 5:11

    And I saw, and I heard the voice of many messengers round the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders -- and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands --

    Revelation 5:

    1And I saw upon the right hand of Him who is sitting upon the throne a scroll, written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals;
    5and one of the elders saith to me, ‘Weep not; lo, overcome did the Lion, who is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, to open the scroll, and to loose the seven seals of it;
    6and I saw, and lo, in the midst of the throne, and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lambkin hath stood as it had been slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God, which are sent to all the earth, 7and he came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who is sitting upon the throne.
    11
    And I saw, and I heard the voice of many messengers round the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders -- and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands --

    Rev 1:13
    and in the midst of the seven lamp-stands, one like to a son of man, clothed to the foot, and girt round at the breast with a golden girdle,

    Rev 14:14
    And I saw, and lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;
     
  6. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I like Guzik too, but here he is a mile off - well, more like 2000 years off. He has pulled the first seal out of its context.

    Neither you nor Guzik nor anyone else can change the context of the first seal from the time Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down.

    5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”

    6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.


    Notice the timing: verse 5 is when He became qualified to open the book by rising from the dead and becoming the Redeemer. He prevailed over death.

    In verse 6, He ascends back into the throne He had left 32 years before. This is probably right after He told Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended. Notice He arrives WITH the Holy Spirit (The anointing) but immediately sends Him down. Time? Around 32 AD.

    In verse 7 He gets the book. In 6:1 He begins to open those seals. Time? Still 32 AD.

    Always know, anybody can make a verse say or mean almost anything if they are willing to pull it from its context. The context of the first seal is 32 AD. You cannot find 2000 years anywhere because John did not write it in.

    Notice what comes next:

    8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

    “You are worthy to take the scroll,
    And to open its seals;
    For You were slain,
    And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
    Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
    10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
    And we shall reign on the earth.”

    11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:

    “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
    To receive power and riches and wisdom,
    And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

    13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

    “Blessing and honor and glory and power
    Be to Him who sits on the throne,
    And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”


    Notice verse 8: WHEN He had taken the scroll...
    Notice the song:
    “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
    To receive power and riches and wisdom,
    And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”


    You expect the readers to believe the praises for Jesus overcoming death would come 2000 years later? No, sorry, it was WHEN He had taken the scroll. It makes FAR MORE sense that all this happened as soon as Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down...exactly as John wrote it.

    Please tell us which word or words you find here that would lead you to believe this is the Antichrist:

    6:1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

    I see white. I know that John used the color white 17 other times for righteousness. I think it would be absurd to even imagine he would use it once out of 17 times to represent anything else. Would God consider the early church to be righteous? Of course He would! They have JESUS' righteousness.
    Did the church have to conquer and overcome to move the gospel out from Jerusalem> Just look at the life of Paul and you have your answer. The devil owns the kingdoms of the world and he was not just going to step aside. Many saints have become martyrs taking the gospel to new lands.

    Good exegesis shows us this first seal was opened around 32 AD - and the only possibility then would be the church taking the Gospel to the world.

    Did you notice that the Red horse and rider, the Black horse and rider, and the Pale horse and rider right together, leaving out the white horse and rider? It is TRUTH! Read seal 4 very closely.

    Did you notice that seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age? Think of Stephen: He would have had no idea how long the age of grace would continue. that is why they asked. If these were 70th week martyrs they would know that the time of judgment had already started. They would only have to wait the rest of the 7 years.

    Then finally we get to seal 6 and that is when Judgment begins with the start of the Day of the Lord.

    Finally, we know that the man of sin will not be revealed until the midpoint abomination. (7th trumpet) Then we notice that the Beast is not seen as the Beast until chapter 13! This is 2000 years after of the first seal! It is chapters after the seal.

    Therefore I disagree with you.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
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