What was Paul's Theology?

Norah63

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As the op was about Paul's theology vs Jesus theology, then how many non Paul have healed everyone that comes to them? How many have delivered from demons, raised the dead, gave sight to the blind? These are legal questions about doing the works that Jesus did. paul had the power gifts also in his ministry. Today no one wants to adress this issue, why not?
Being aware of the leven in todays world is no diffrent than then.
Doubt paralizes while faith moves forward.
 
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timewerx

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As the op was about Paul's theology vs Jesus theology, then how many non Paul have healed everyone that comes to them? How many have delivered from demons, raised the dead, gave sight to the blind? These are legal questions about doing the works that Jesus did. paul had the power gifts also in his ministry. Today no one wants to adress this issue, why not?
Being aware of the leven in todays world is no diffrent than then.
Doubt paralizes while faith moves forward.



The works of Jesus that is required for the fulfillment of God's Will does not make performing miracles a requirement.

Did John the Baptist healed the sick, raised the dead, made the blind see, cast out demons?

And what about Matthew 7:22-23.

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


Again, I'd like to make myself clear, I have nothing against miracles. Miracles are good but we cannot use it to determine whether one is false teacher or not as Jesus said on Matthew 7:22-23
 
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TorahMan

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Hi Norah63,

According to Acts, the apostles (Torah observant) were easily able to heal the sick, cast out demons, and do other miracles. Also, Peter's understudy Clement recorded so many healings and deliverances by Peter, that he didn't even bother to list them. It was all in a day's work. You can read about them in Clement Recognitions and Clement Homilies.

Exodus 15:26 is also revealing: "If you diligently heed the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the LORD who heals you." But the healings are conditional on keeping the commandments, which today's church refuses to do (she honours Sunday, doesn't she?). So it's not surprising that healings have become so rare.

I suspect that if a believer keeps Torah, they could be very successful at healing and deliverance. For my own part, last June I was operated on for advanced lung cancer, which was everywhere. They didn't take anything out; they only drained the fluid (about 6.5 litres!). So after I left hospital I prayed, quoted the verses which promise healing for those who keep the commandments, and received healing the same day. I have little doubt that if I was still a Sunday believer, the healing would not have come, and I'd possibly not even be here. Healing and deliverance is a two-way street; we have to do our part as well, which is to bring glory to God by obeying Him.

I'm sure that during the great end-time revival, believers will rediscover the Torah (mainly the Sabbath), and be amazed at the power and protection they will receive.

Blessings.
 
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A New Dawn

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I suspect that if a believer keeps Torah, they could be very successful at healing and deliverance. For my own part, last June I was operated on for advanced lung cancer, which was everywhere. They didn't take anything out; they only drained the fluid (about 6.5 litres!). So after I left hospital I prayed, quoted the verses which promise healing for those who keep the commandments, and received healing the same day. I have little doubt that if I was still a Sunday believer, the healing would not have come, and I'd possibly not even be here. Healing and deliverance is a two-way street; we have to do our part as well, which is to bring glory to God by obeying Him.

I'm sure that during the great end-time revival, believers will rediscover the Torah (mainly the Sabbath), and be amazed at the power and protection they will receive.

Blessings.

Yeah, because healings and deliverances were so common before Jesus showed up on the scene. The reason Jesus was recognized as the Messiah was because he performed the Messianic-sign miracles, including healings and deliverances. If it were so easy, why weren't they being performed by the pharisees, or anyone else who tried to keep the law?

As far as your healing, dependent on you keeping the laws, did you violate any of the laws? Because violating even one is the same as violating them all. Therein lies the problem with the law. You will never be worthy of salvation (or healing) if you were to rely only on yourself.

As far as your health, I praise God that you are healthy. Perhaps the doctors mistook the fluid for a solid mass on the x-rays, or perhaps it really was a miraculous healing. Either way, God is good!
 
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IchoozJC

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Hi Norah63,

According to Acts, the apostles (Torah observant) were easily able to heal the sick, cast out demons, and do other miracles. Also, Peter's understudy Clement recorded so many healings and deliverances by Peter, that he didn't even bother to list them. It was all in a day's work. You can read about them in Clement Recognitions and Clement Homilies.

Exodus 15:26 is also revealing: "If you diligently heed the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the LORD who heals you." But the healings are conditional on keeping the commandments, which today's church refuses to do (she honours Sunday, doesn't she?). So it's not surprising that healings have become so rare.

I suspect that if a believer keeps Torah, they could be very successful at healing and deliverance. For my own part, last June I was operated on for advanced lung cancer, which was everywhere. They didn't take anything out; they only drained the fluid (about 6.5 litres!). So after I left hospital I prayed, quoted the verses which promise healing for those who keep the commandments, and received healing the same day. I have little doubt that if I was still a Sunday believer, the healing would not have come, and I'd possibly not even be here. Healing and deliverance is a two-way street; we have to do our part as well, which is to bring glory to God by obeying Him.

I'm sure that during the great end-time revival, believers will rediscover the Torah (mainly the Sabbath), and be amazed at the power and protection they will receive.

Blessings.

I'm curious about your story. First of all thank God that you are healthy! Did you have stage 3 or 4 lung cancer? You said you prayed and that very day you were healed. How did you know? Do you have before and after xrays and test results?

Its a wonderful story if true, but I've heard similar stories many times almost exclusively from non Torah observant Christians. Your story is certainly not the rule.
 
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Phantasman

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I see more truth in Peanuts than Philip.

So were none saved in the OT? They didn't have Philip.

Jesus thought highly of the OT.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

They weren't saved until Jesus died. They didn't even believe in a resurrection.

Go read Peanuts for your truth.
 
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TorahMan

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Thanks New Dawn and IchoozJC!

Well I laid in bed for a week with a tube coming out of my chest, watching the fluid draining out and being measured. In total it was 6.5L, after which they sealed me up. And I've had so many CAT scans I'm almost radioactive, so there's plenty of evidence for the remission.

It wasn't me healing myself, it was repentance and trusting in the mercy of God. And as one who does his best to keep Torah, it was very faith building to be able to quote scriptures back to God and put my healing in His hands. He responded immediately, and from that moment I went from feeling horrible to feeling that all the active stuff inside was destroyed.

There's still scar tissue inside, but the body is getting rid of it through the skin. So there are some weird skin eruptions, but they disappear quickly and are fading overall. And I give full glory to the Lord, hallelujah!

New Dawn, you asked: "As far as your healing, dependent on you keeping the laws, did you violate any of the laws? Because violating even one is the same as violating them all. Therein lies the problem with the law. You will never be worthy of salvation (or healing) if you were to rely only on yourself."

Yes I still break the law, far too often. As we know it's impossible to keep it perfectly, but the important thing is to do one's best and not abuse the grace which is shown to us. The Blood of the Lamb covers all our imperfections, of which I (like everyone) have many. And you're perfectly right in that if we rely on ourselves for atonement, we're going to fail dismally. So I do what I can, which is simple and easy. Much of the law is second nature anyway, like returning lost property if you know who the owner is.

Some years ago, when the Holy Spirit said 'Keep Torah', my knees literally shook. I thought 'Woe is me, my life is over!' But the reality turned out to be very different from what I'd heard from the pulpit.

I started with the Sabbath instead of Sunday. Oh man, if you think Sunday is good, you should try the Sabbath! Talk about tapping into the open channel to heaven!! A few months later I gave up my beloved ham sandwiches and bacon, and guess what? My health soared. Then I started keeping the seven high holy days listed in Lev 23, and guess what? I had seven more prescribed days of rest, and was no longer obliged to participate in the paganism of Easter and Christmas. Finally, the steady focus on the law really does train you to be more careful to avoid sin, and to be kind and forgiving to other people.

So much gain, so little cost. If the Holy Spirit says 'Jump', I jump. No more rebellion because Paul said that jumping is a crushing burden. If there's any downside, I've yet to find it. And it's very comforting to know that I'm able to legally claim so many promises and blessings which are denied to the lawless.

May you all have a joyful day as we remember His sacrifice and resurrection!


P.S. To timewerx, thank you very much for the PM, which I can't reply to until I've made 15 posts (strange limitation). But your 'gift' is much appreciated. Blessings to you! :)
 
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timewerx

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They weren't saved until Jesus died. They didn't even believe in a resurrection.

Go read Peanuts for your truth.


I think your conviction contradicts the teaching of Paul here which puts belief in resurrection a requirement for salvation:

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” AND believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


I only quoted this verse because I know you accept Paul's teachings but I don't.




New Dawn, you asked: "As far as your healing, dependent on you keeping the laws, did you violate any of the laws? Because violating even one is the same as violating them all. Therein lies the problem with the law. You will never be worthy of salvation (or healing) if you were to rely only on yourself."


I'm not sinless either but when I have stopped loving this world - 1 John 2:15-16 and the world began to hate me as a result - John 15:19, I stopped getting sick.

It's almost two years now, two years without colds, cough, and flu, to top it all, in all those times, I lived in two different countries far apart in crowded and filthy conditions with multiple nationalities.

Even my looks changed a bit and I looked younger like a teen even though I am already 32.

I was sickly before, 2 to 3 times a year, thus, it could only be one thing...
 
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Phantasman

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I think your conviction contradicts the teaching of Paul here which puts belief in resurrection a requirement for salvation:

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” AND believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


I only quoted this verse because I know you accept Paul's teachings but I don't.

This is part of a bigger picture.

Think of this.
The Jews say they knew God. Did they? They were wrong. But they were right. Christ teaches us the right. The truth. He divides. He unites. You cannot know truth unless you pull it out of what is not truth.

Saul said he knew God. Did he? He was wrong. But he became right. Christ teaches us which is right. Which is truth. He divides. He unites. You have to see what fits in the big picture. Not the one liners.

Now, read this. Open your mind.

The chrism is superior to baptism, for it is from the word "Chrism" that we have been called "Christians," certainly not because of the word "baptism". And it is because of the chrism that "the Christ" has his name. For the Father anointed the Son, and the Son anointed the apostles, and the apostles anointed us. He who has been anointed possesses everything. He possesses the resurrection, the light, the cross, the Holy Spirit. The Father gave him this in the bridal chamber; he merely accepted (the gift). The Father was in the Son and the Son in the Father. This is the Kingdom of Heaven.

Now, these words either strike a spiritual chord or they don't. Do we judge the words? A preacher could say them. But the early Christians believed them. The anointing by the spirit is what we seek. It is what Christ received. And we receive all those things with one action. The chrism.

So while Paul has truth, it is not complete truth, unless you add up all of the truth together. The church gives their idea. What Philip says above has nothing from the OT in it. Or Revelations. Christ didn't waste his precious time on such speeches.

You get it, my friend. By your understanding of what physical (mammon) is really worth. But sometimes I wonder if you don't see the spiritual forest for the tree's. It's not about throwing Paul under the bus or not. He's dead. It's about understanding through seeking, and yes, there should be a plan, a beginning, but no end. If you pray for truth will you get a lie? That makes Christ a liar. Don't be manipulated. But keep at it. I question a lot of words in the scriptural Paul. It's not whether it's true or not. It just may not be meant for us (me).
 
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Phantasman

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I was just thinking about the whole Judaizer thing earlier. Is there any early writings that show clearly that followers of Christ were continuing to keep Torah. And writings that show gentiles were instructed to keep Torah?

Not a lot that I have seen. It would appear that the ECFs felt that they could have a larger religion if they could have the Jews as well as Christians by combining the two into one big religion. After Christ, there were Jews and there were Christians. Then came catholics.
 
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Ruthie24

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I believe I've figured out why the anti Pauleans have disagreed so much with his epistles and basically everything about him even going so far as to say he is the anti Christ (per my research). I decided to take a spiritual look at this instead of historical although I looked at that too.

How does someone conquer their enemy? Meaning, how would Satan conquer this new Christianity? By dividing and conquering His house from within. If he cannot kill off Christ, he will attack his followers and get them to attack themselves. What he hates is humanity but what he hates more is God and all of his Creation.

Scholars believe that the epistles of Paul were written prior to the gospels. They believe that he used the very earliest scriptures from the first original church while the apostles were still alive who witnessed the life of Jesus. When writing the Epistles Paul utilized the creeds, confessions of faith, and hymns from the earliest Christian Church which began soon after the resurrection.

"In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul utilized technical language to indicate that he was passing along oral tradition in a relatively fixed form." Dr. Craig Blomberg.

Scholars believe that Paul's conversion to Christianity began 32ad and that he utilized earlier scriptures from oral Christian beliefs that can be dated to within two years after Christ's resurrection.

So I think the anti Pauleans while they think they are attacking Paul, they really are attacking Christ and His church through a divisive seed planted long ago by Satan.
 
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timewerx

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Haha timewerx, bravo! That's wonderful to hear! (My experience too). Have you found your allergies also disappearing? I don't even know what they are any more.

I don't have any known allergies since birth, thank God!

Your case is more remarkable since you used to have it and now disappearing!:thumbsup:




if you pray for truth will you get a lie? That makes Christ a liar.


I doubt any Christian would ask God to give them lies, but how come, many are deceived?





Scholars believe that the epistles of Paul were written prior to the gospels. They believe that he used the very earliest scriptures from the first original church


That's the easy part

The hard part is the contradiction in teachings between the Gospels and Paul's epistles.




So I think the anti Pauleans while they think they are attacking Paul, they really are attacking Christ and His church through a divisive seed planted long ago by Satan.


How could you attack Jesus when you're attacking Paul's theology? Their theology is not the same.


It's easy to take another's word for it. The hard part is actually reading the Gospels very carefully and so does Paul's epistles and compare.


..
 
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Ruthie24

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There is no contradiction between Paul's epistles or the gospels and I have read almost all of them. The argument with Paul goes way back to Jerusalem and is argument with the Jews over circumcision among other things. Dr. Blomberg points out that had the early Christians listened more closely to the gospels there would be no need for the divisiveness with Paul as he directly uses the scriptures in his epistles. Instead certain factions chose to fight with his teachings which come from Jesus to begin with!
 
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peterlindner

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I believe I've figured out why the anti Pauleans have disagreed so much with his epistles and basically everything about him even going so far as to say he is the anti Christ (per my research). I decided to take a spiritual look at this instead of historical although I looked at that too.

How does someone conquer their enemy? Meaning, how would Satan conquer this new Christianity? By dividing and conquering His house from within. If he cannot kill off Christ, he will attack his followers and get them to attack themselves. What he hates is humanity but what he hates more is God and all of his Creation.

Scholars believe that the epistles of Paul were written prior to the gospels. They believe that he used the very earliest scriptures from the first original church while the apostles were still alive who witnessed the life of Jesus. When writing the Epistles Paul utilized the creeds, confessions of faith, and hymns from the earliest Christian Church which began soon after the resurrection.

"In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul utilized technical language to indicate that he was passing along oral tradition in a relatively fixed form." Dr. Craig Blomberg.

Scholars believe that Paul's conversion to Christianity began 32ad and that he utilized earlier scriptures from oral Christian beliefs that can be dated to within two years after Christ's resurrection.

So I think the anti Pauleans while they think they are attacking Paul, they really are attacking Christ and His church through a divisive seed planted long ago by Satan.

Sounds just like Agag. Surely the bitterness of the Anti Paul has past? Saul spared the precious cattle…it could be sold and given to the poor?

What was God's answer through Samuel?
 
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TorahMan

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Hi Ruthie24,

As I was reading your post #117, I was nodding and thinking "Yes! She's got it!" Then I got to your last paragraph:
So I think the anti Pauleans while they think they are attacking Paul, they really are attacking Christ and His church through a divisive seed planted long ago by Satan.

No no no! It's PAUL who attacks Yeshua and His church by planting a divisive seed. Yeshua consistently said "keep the commandments", but Paul basically said "don't keep the commandments because that's legalism". I can probably give you a dozen examples of something Yeshua said, and Paul contradicting Him.

Then in your later post #119:
There is no contradiction between Paul's epistles or the gospels and I have read almost all of them.

That's exactly what I used to think, until I tried to prepare a cross-reference between the gospels and Paul's epistles (Matthew vs. Romans). I got through the first page of Romans with difficulty (because there were so few points of comparison with anything Yeshua said), and then half-way through the second page of Romans I was finding Paul contradicting himself. Say what???

So I flipped through the rest of his writings, and for the first time saw that for every significant doctrine, he presented two opposing points of view. It's impossible to pin him down!

So it's no surprise that Christianity is divided into 30,000+ different denominations. If it's due to anyone it's due to Paul, because his writings can be interpreted in so many ways. The spirit of division comes from him.

I'd always felt uneasy about his slander of the apostles, plus his atrocious treatment of Peter in Galatians. However his doublespeak was the last straw. So I looked at the four criteria for apostleship in Acts 1:21-22, and realised that he didn't meet any of them. The rumours were true - he really was a false apostle, and therefore a liar. And from there his whole house of cards came tumbling down.

By the way, I agree with your observation that he was influenced by the oral law. That's a very astute observation, which we may explore further. But first things first.
 
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A New Dawn

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No no no! It's PAUL who attacks Yeshua and His church by planting a divisive seed. Yeshua consistently said "keep the commandments", but Paul basically said "don't keep the commandments because that's legalism". I can probably give you a dozen examples of something Yeshua said, and Paul contradicting Him.

Jesus was talking to the Jews. He told them over and over that the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand, and the Jews rejected Him. Jesus was right to tell them, after they rejected him, that yes, they had to keep ALL the commandments ALL the time in order to be saved. If you don't understand the context of the gospels, then you will not understand why Jesus said the things he said.
 
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Joseph474

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my friends, it is one thing to argue about lawlessness, it is another to argue about any person. The latter can get you condemned as a slanderer, a gossiper, etc. we should not judge. we should repent and try not to sin. I support opposing justifying continual sin and lawlessness through a misunderstanding of Paul(but even this should be done with love, not ridicule).
 
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