What unites (most) traditional churches (EO, OO, RC) together, musicologically: The Octoechos

[All4Christ]

I need to think about it a bit.

Sometimes I think I would do better with more musical training. And sometimes I think what I DO know maybe gets in the way.

Ahhhhh .... in some parishes they actively teach this stuff. I have a bit of envy for those folks.

I guess I got too technical....it’s hard to explain the concept in writing. Essentially, put lines at places that help you know what section of the chant you are at. Put them at a place that will show that the melody is going to change tone of hold out for a longer period of time.

Honestly, I don’t understand the structure of the Byzantine chant. It seems a bit daunting to me when I see (or even hear) the music!

 

[~Anastasia~]

I guess I got too technical....it’s hard to explain the concept in writing. Essentially, put lines at places that help you know what section of the chant you are at. Put them at a place that will show that the melody is going to change tone of hold out for a longer period of time.

Honestly, I don’t understand the structure of the Byzantine chant. It seems a bit daunting to me when I see (or even hear) the music!

That's essentially what I wanted to do ... I think from your description. Maybe draw out syllables where they are held (or something like dots to note where it's more staccato) ... and major ups and downs in pitch. But marking the pitch too much makes it start to get complex. It just seems maybe wasted effort to develop my own notation and use it to mark every piece when I could just learn Byzantine notation - but then Byzantine can become terribly complex and even when I try to chant more simply the sheer number of markings makes me get lost in the music. You have to read ahead in Byzantine as well, and I'm just not proficient enough to keep that many things in mind simultaneously.

By contrast when I learn the music, I can chant it and it becomes more like a prayer. After all, I don't want to completely miss out on the services just because I'm chanting.

 

[~Anastasia~]

But ... I'd probably have to live a monastic life and schedule for a few years to begin to reach that level of proficiency with most of every service. Or maybe not - if there's some clue within the tones themselves that I still haven't managed to unlock.

 

[All4Christ]

But ... I'd probably have to live a monastic life and schedule for a few years to begin to reach that level of proficiency with most of every service. Or maybe not - if there's some clue within the tones themselves that I still haven't managed to unlock.

Can you listen to the different tones? Get an idea based on that? Then just use the major points of changing directions, lengths, etc for reminders? It wouldn’t be marking every pitch - just starts of phrasing, sections, etc.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Can you listen to the different tones? Get an idea based on that? Then just use the major points of changing directions, lengths, etc for reminders? It wouldn’t be marking every pitch - just starts of phrasing, sections, etc.

Oh I listen to them, and know some hymns in each of them.

Just I haven't had the "aha" moment of distinguishing each of them yet. Funny in some ways I have a really good aural memory - I can hear a tone barely off in something I know. But I don't have a good faculty for comparative analysis of pieces I guess.

 

[All4Christ]

Oh I listen to them, and know some hymns in each of them.

Just I haven't had the "aha" moment of distinguishing each of them yet. Funny in some ways I have a really good aural memory - I can hear a tone barely off in something I know. But I don't have a good faculty for comparative analysis of pieces I guess.

I’ve been looking at it - it’s much more complex than the chanting we do. It definitely looks like a challenge!

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Just a quick listen, Tone 5 in the Syrian Malakara sounded awfully darned close to Tone 5 in the Greek in my head. Normally there are signature tone phrases in the Greek that clue you into the tone, so Ni-Pa-Pa (Do-Re-Re) is a signature of Tone 1. Unfortunately, I didnt hear those signature phrases in the clips, but they probably have their own.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

We often have chant notated just by “points”

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I remember how astonished I was when I joined the choir, to see these stichera and hymns with no notations! How in the world was I supposed to learn this??? But you learn quickly through so much repetition. Singing at Vespers each week, as we move through the tones is the best teacher. I’ve been at it for almost 19 years now but I still have so much to learn! I wish I had more musical training than I do.

 

[All4Christ]

I remember how astonished I was when I joined the choir, to see these stichera and hymns with no notations! How in the world was I supposed to learn this??? But you learn quickly through so much repetition. Singing at Vespers each week, as we move through the tones is the best teacher. I’ve been at it for almost 19 years now but I still have so much to learn! I wish I had more musical training than I do.

Exactly! There’s still so much to learn!

 

[anna ~ grace]

I found this on YouTube ;

Very beautiful! Latin, but sounds very Eastern.

 

[dzheremi]

Rome did go through distinct periods of Byzantinization of the papacy, so that's not surprising. The Ambrosian (Milanese) rite and the Mozarabic (Spanish) rite probably attest to that (there's a lot of conjecture about the origins of the Ambrosian, and in both cases they are celebrating from a book containing a reconstruction of the original rite), as they're noticeably closer to Byzantine chant than the standard Gregorian is (they're still their own thing, but the influence is noticeably stronger).

The Mozarabic rite:

The Ambrosian rite:

Also, I would be willing to bet that the recording you've found is by the French ancient music ensemble Ensemble Organum (I didn't click through to find more info on it on YouToube, so apologies in advance if that's already stated somewhere), who frequently collaborated with Greek Orthodox chanter Lykourgos Angelopoulos (+ 2014) on their recordings of Mozarabic, Byzantine, and other chant. So their recordings tend to be heavily Byzantine-influenced. (As many forms of Western chant already are, so it works out fine. )

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes phone typo I love his music, especially when done by a talented choir!

I love singing this one...

I am more familiar with Bortniansky and Chesnokov, but I will have to make sure to look through my library for Lvovsky.

@~Anastasia~
Never mind...that’s another form of Slavic plainchant....

The same concept could apply though.

I am trying to learn more anout how the eight tones work in the different forms of Slavonic chant (Kievan, Valam, Zhanmenie, “Greek Chant” which is in no sense Byzantine, etc).

By the way, Anglican plainchant has at least eight tones (I believe it uses the same principles as Gregorian chant, which actually has a ninth tone). However, Anglican Chant as used for singing the Psalms, Canticles and so on does not; however, there are four distinct types of chants, which increase in complexity, called a Single, a Double, a Triple and a Quadruple (very rare, Psalm 78 is a rare instance of an Anglican quadruple).

 

[The Liturgist]

Rome did go through distinct periods of Byzantinization of the papacy, so that's not surprising. The Ambrosian (Milanese) rite and the Mozarabic (Spanish) rite probably attest to that (there's a lot of conjecture about the origins of the Ambrosian, and in both cases they are celebrating from a book containing a reconstruction of the original rite), as they're noticeably closer to Byzantine chant than the standard Gregorian is (they're still their own thing, but the influence is noticeably stronger).

The Mozarabic rite:

The Ambrosian rite:

Also, I would be willing to bet that the recording you've found is by the French ancient music ensemble Ensemble Organum (I didn't click through to find more info on it on YouToube, so apologies in advance if that's already stated somewhere), who frequently collaborated with Greek Orthodox chanter Lykourgos Angelopoulos (+ 2014) on their recordings of Mozarabic, Byzantine, and other chant. So their recordings tend to be heavily Byzantine-influenced. (As many forms of Western chant already are, so it works out fine. )

Liturgiologically, the Mozarabic and the Ambrosian Rite are variant forms of the old Gallican Rite, which was suppressed in France in favor of the Roman Rite by Charlemagne. They do have a definite Byzantine sound, and also Orientalisms like the Trisagion and Eucharistic prayers addressed to the Son have a tendency to pop up frequently in the extremely variable Mozarabic Rite, where the entire Anaphora can change in content according to the propers (but not in such a manner where one could say there are multiple discrete anaphoras, like the Byzantine, Coptic, Syriac or Ethiopian Rite).

 

[dzheremi]

Interesting. I have read that about the Mozarabic rite, but I was unaware that the same relationship existed between the Gallican and the Ambrosian. Thank you.

 

[The Liturgist]

Interesting. I have read that about the Mozarabic rite, but I was unaware that the same relationship existed between the Gallican and the Ambrosian. Thank you.

The Ambrosian Rite is more Latinized than the Mozarabic, for example, the Roman Canon replaces the variable Gallican anaphora, but it is still a derivative of it, and perhaps all three rites had a Byzantine sounding chant. In the case of the Gallican, alas, we can’t know, because all we have is the text, and even that is not as complete as we would wish.

By the way, if you are interested in Byzantine and Gregorian chant that “interfaces” in a musical and cultural way, the most recent releases of Capella Romana should be of interest (Byzantium in Rome, Venice in the East: Crete and Cyprus, and Cyprus: Meeting Place of Byzantine East and Latin West). These are available on Apple Music, which is a must have if you like church music and can afford $10/mo. Its a much better deal than Netflix or Prime, frankly.

 

[All4Christ]

The Ambrosian Rite is more Latinized than the Mozarabic, for example, the Roman Canon replaces the variable Gallican anaphora, but it is still a derivative of it, and perhaps all three rites had a Byzantine sounding chant. In the case of the Gallican, alas, we can’t know, because all we have is the text, and even that is not as complete as we would wish.

By the way, if you are interested in Byzantine and Gregorian chant that “interfaces” in a musical and cultural way, the most recent releases of Capella Romana should be of interest (Byzantium in Rome, Venice in the East: Crete and Cyprus, and Cyprus: Meeting Place of Byzantine East and Latin West). These are available on Apple Music, which is a must have if you like church music and can afford $10/mo. Its a much better deal than Netflix or Prime, frankly.

Nice, I didn’t realize that was on Apple Music! Heading over there now...

 

[The Liturgist]

Nice, I didn’t realize that was on Apple Music! Heading over there now...

I try to find where all the best stuff is.

Speaking of which do we have any Romanian or Georgian members?