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What time of the day did the trumpet sound?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Gideon, Oct 18, 2016.

  1. Gideon

    Gideon Member

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    Question please:

    Rosh Hashanah, the 1st day of the 7th month, and Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) are 10 days, known as the 'Ten Days of Awe'. An outstanding feature was the blasts of the trumpets, and my question relates to the timing of these.

    And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall observe a day of solemn rest, a memorial proclaimed with blast of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work, and you shall present a food offering to the Lord.”
    (Leviticus 23:23-25)​

    We know how the Hebrew day began at sunset, but was that the actual hour when the trumpets were sounded? Or were the trumpets sounded on the following morning at day break?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
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  2. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Back in the day, the first citing was to be seen by two witnesses. Back in that time, instead of cell phones, it was either lighting a fire upon the top of the hill, or in Jewish tradition, sounding the shofar.

    So, I imagine it was a bit of both, the arrival of the two witnesses, and the blowing of the shofar welcoming the feast of trumpets. It would seem rather strange not to have shofars blowing on the start of the feast of trumpets. I am sure they got louder as more shofars joined in.

    What I don't know is how did they pick the "two witnesses" and how far out from the city did they go to witness the new moon. I do imagine that they left the city to find the best night dark view.
     
  3. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    A Jewish follower of Y'SHUA always blows the shofar as appointed at the sunset of the sixth day. (announcing the beginning of YHWH'S SHABBAT).

    Online , the last few hours, I found way too much to remember in a couple simple searches of even "shofar",
    including MANY TIMES the shofar is used.
    I could not tell in short time what was from SCRIPTURE,
    and what was from tradition.
     
  4. Gideon

    Gideon Member

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    That's a good point that you make Visionary. As I understand it, if the sighting occurred in the night hours, the 1st of the month was deemed to have been started on the previous sunset.

    However, my question relates to all 10 days - not only the 1st day. Im particularly interested in the day of Atonement. Were the trumpets sounded in the morning at day break?
     
  5. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Part of the Christian "day" misconceptualization is evident with your use of the phrase "following morning" instead of the "coming morning" as associated with an Israelite day. Scripture reads On that day NOT at the beginning of that day (being sunset/dusk). The Israelites would have understood "On the first day" of shofar blasts as occurring during the morning daylight and NOT at/after sunset (e.g. Num 29:1)

    Numbers 29:1
    On the first day of the seventh month you are to gather for worship, and no work is to be done. On that day trumpets are to be blown.

    The series of shofar blasts (each consisting of a number of sets) on Rosh Hashanah (Yom Teruah) were first blown during the coming morning daylight as they "gather for worship and no work is to be done" and NOT at sunset/dusk at the beginning of the first day of the seventh month.
     
  6. Lulav

    Lulav Everyone will give an account Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Having recently attended High Holy Day Services I have to say that it is still to this day not settled.

    The trumpet is blown many times during the 24 hours of Yom Teruah. And again it is blown on Yom Kippur and also during Sukkot which we are in right now.

    The Torah is traditionally believed to have been given on Shavuot which is the one Holy Day between the Spring Feasts and the Fall feasts.

    On that day is when the Lord met with his people on the mountain, they were to prepare for three days prior.

    Ex 19

    16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled.

    19 As the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.

    Because of this above it is believed that the 'bat kol' or voice out of heaven, the voice of God is likened to the same sound of the trumpet or the shofar. The Hebrew actually reads, kol shofar in this verse so we know it's not the other kind of trumpet.

    In Leviticus 23 we read in English

    24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

    But that's not what's said in the Hebrew, there is no mention of Trumpets, it actually says 'tekeah' which is one of the commands used on Yom Teruah when blowing the shofar, however it means to shout, so this day was a day of shouting, not blowing trumpets.

    Then further on in Leviticus we read

    25:9 Then have the trumpet sounded everywhere on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement sound the trumpet throughout your land.

    Speaking of Yom Kippur.

    Now that was the NIV version, here is the KJV

    9 Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.

    This is the ONLY place in Leviticus where the word 'shofar' is used.

    In Numbers the other kind of Trumpet is written about

    2 “Make two trumpets of hammered silver, and use them for calling the community together and for having the camps set out.

    10:10 Also at your times of rejoicing—your appointed festivals and New Moon feasts—you are to sound the trumpets over your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, and they will be a memorial for you before your God. I am the LORD your God.”

    Num 29:1 1 And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.


    I'll have to finish this later, my pc is going very slow so hard to look up passages right now. This isn't finished so please understand
     
  7. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    However, what is settled is that the first series of shofar blasts on Rosh Hashanah (Yom Teruah) were at first during the coming morning daylight and NOT during the preceding sunset/dusk of the first day of the seventh month. That said there are traditions and then traditions (e.g. "still to this day not settled") as evident in the following excerpts of this insightful Yeshiva link ...

    "It would appear that, at first, people would recite the special Rosh Hashanah blessings during the morning prayers and at that time they would also blow the Shofar, for "the zealous are quick to perform their religious duties.

    The Jerusalem Talmud relates that the enemies once heard Jews blowing the shofar during morning prayers. They thought it was a war cry and attacked the worshipers, killing many of them. Therefore, the sages instituted that the shofar be blown during the Mussaf prayers.


    At that time they, Torah authorities ruled that the shofar be blown during the Rosh Hashanah Mussaf prayer (because it can be recited after noon) ...

    The Torah states (Numbers 29:1): "It will be for you a day of sounding the shofar," and from here we learn of the obligation to blow the shofar on Rosh Hashanah day, not at night (Megillah 20b)"
    ...
    The Laws of Blowing the Shofar by Rabbi Eliezer Melamed www.yeshiva.co/midrash/shiur.asp?id=6251
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2016
  8. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Exodus 20:10 says to do no work on the 7th day. Are you then saying by extension that we can work on Sabbath evenings and feast day evenings?
     
  9. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Are you implying by extension Lulav's reply? ...
    Some Jews contend that Yom Teruah was observed over two days (48 hrs); while others contend that Yom Teruah was never observed for more than 24 hrs in Israel. According to Lulav this unique series of blasts on Yom Teruah occurred in Israel "many times during the 24 hours of Yom Teruah."

    Apparently Lulav believes the shofar blasts (each consisting of a number of sets) on Yom Teruah began as soon as sundown/dusk on the first day of the seventh month and continued for 24 hours.
     
  10. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Exodus 20:10 CJB
    but the seventh day is a Shabbat for Adonai your God. On it, you are not to do any kind of work — not you, [your wife], your son or your daughter, not your male or female slave, not your livestock, and not the foreigner staying with you inside the gates to your property.
    No mention of the wife(mother of son or daughter)? Makes one wonder if Moses purposely forgot to include [your wife]?

    A Woman's Work Is Never Done
    "The old saying goes: "Man may work from sun to sun but woman's work is never done." Even most men nod in agreement with that proverb yet women often go one better: they feel guilty on top of it all. They always have a vague sense that if they were just a little more organized they could fit in at least two or three more projects.

    An initial reading of Proverbs 31, "The Excellent Wife" scripture, confirms what they have known all along - they aren't HER by any stretch of the imagination. After all, when does this woman sleep? "She rises also while it is still night" (Proverbs 31:15) and "Her lamp does not go out at night." (Verse 17)

    There is so much activity packed into these twenty two verses, no wonder the first verse wonders: "An excellent wife, who can find?" Is this for real? Is this what is expected of a godly woman? Was there a man back in those Old Testament days who could boast of actually having a Proverbs 31 wife or was the writer indulging in wishful thinking?" ...
    http://hannahscupboard.com/proverbs31.html

    Mathew 12:1-2
    1 At that time Jesus went through the wheat fields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry so they were picking heads of wheat and eating them.
    2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look, your disciples are breaking the Sabbath law.”

    Matthew 12:9-12
    9 Jesus left that place and went into their synagogue.
    10 A man with a withered hand was there. Wanting to bring charges against Jesus, they asked, “Does the Law allow a person to heal on the Sabbath?”
    11 Jesus replied, “Who among you has a sheep that falls into a pit on the Sabbath and will not take hold of it and pull it out?
    12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! So the Law allows a person to do what is good on the Sabbath.”
     
  11. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    My question has nothing to do with Lulav's beliefs. You posed the argument that because the shofar was blown on that "day" that that means it was not blown at night. If that view is correct, then when we are told to do no work on the 7th "day" that that means we can work on Sabbath night. If you do not believe we can work on Sabbath night, then you should not use the line of thinking that you are using.
     
  12. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Please start another thread as your question to me is off-topic to Gideon's question.

    We do need to consider Lulav's reply (beliefs) as it distinguishes a difference between the use of silver trumpets, shouting and the series of unique Shofar blasts associated with Rosh Hashanah ~ Yom Teruah.

    Lulav's beliefs are based on scripture and insights learned from "having recently attended High Holy Day Services." When Lulav says, "The trumpet is blown many times during the 24 hours of Yom Teruah" we need to consider that she is not referring to the shofar (series of unique blasts associated with Yom Teruah). This was a unique day in Jerusalem of: (1) Blowing the silver trumpet, (2) Shouting, and (3) Shofar blasts first sounded during the morning worship.

    Gideon and others are interested in hearing more about Lulav's understanding whether or not it was the silver trumpet and not the ram's horn shofar that was blown for 24 hours on Yom Teruah (during both Temple periods).
     
  13. Lulav

    Lulav Everyone will give an account Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Ah, no, that is not what I said.

    I did not say in Israel, I said from services attended here, in the States this is what I've observed. However it is a moot point since the word in Hebrew really means to 'Shout' there is actually no mention of a shofar in connection with Yom Teruah. In fact Yom Teruah literally means, the 'Day of Shouting', not the 'Day of Blowing' which many think.

    Again I did not say that. Some congregations do open with the shofar, and there are other times, at the different services that it is blown. I think this harkens to the Rabbinical ruling that to fulfill the miztvah you need to hear the shofar blown sometime on that day.

    So not for 24hours, but during the 24 hours of the 1st of Tishri, at Erev yom Teruah service it could be blown, at Morning Service and closing, but not for 24hours straight.
     
  14. Lulav

    Lulav Everyone will give an account Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Hi Gideon,

    Could you perhaps tell us why you are seeking to know when this happened? If you can tell us we may be able to help better.

    As I posted above, the trumpets blown on Yom Teruah and on Yom Kippurim were different, so it would help to know what your line of thought is on your question.

    If we think back to the time when this commandment was given when evening falls most would have been in their tents for the night. Perhaps at nightfall on that day the Trumpet was blown to alert everyone that a Shabbat had begun and they were to cease from regular work. However since the commandment is for 'shouting' I would have to surmise that they were to be gathered together and then the shouting would begin.

    We see something similar in the book of Joshua where in Jericho the trumpets are blown for six days and on the seventh day all the people shouted and that is when the walls fell. So it seems as if it is a combination of Gods voice and the voice of his people.
     
  15. Gideon

    Gideon Member

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    Thanks for the information concerning the 'shouting' as opposed to the 'blowing.' I was not aware of that distinction.

    Yes, I do have a reason for my question. I am trying to pin down the time of day when the shofar sounded and the 'fiftieth year' announced on the DoA of the 49th year? I assume it was day break?
     
  16. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Numbers 29:1 KJV
    And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.​
    Numbers 29:1 CJB
    In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you are to have a holy convocation; do not do any kind of ordinary work; it is a day of blowing the shofar for you.
    Numbers 29:1 YLT
    And in the seventh month, in the first of the month, a holy convocation ye have, ye do no servile work; a day of shouting it is to you;​

    The Hebrew word used in Numbers 29:1 is "תְּ רוּעָ ה" is translated as "thruoe" or trumpet blast ...

    Megillah 20b
    (interprets "day" as hours of daylight)
    and counting must be by day. If any of these things is done after dawn has appeared, it is valid. From where is this rule derived? Rava said: For the verse says, “And God called the light day” something which gradually becomes light he called day.

    The whole day is a valid time for reading the Megillah; reciting Hallel; for the blowing of the shofar; for taking up the lulav; for the Musaf prayer; for Musaf sacrifices; for confession over the oxen; for the confession over the tithe; for the confession of sins on Yom HaKippurim; for laying on of hands; for slaughtering [the sacrifices]; for waving [them]; for bringing near [the vessel with the minhah-offering to the altar]; for taking a handful; for placing it on the fire; for pinching off [the head of a bird-offering]; for receiving the blood [in a vessel]; for sprinkling [the blood on the altar]; for making the sotah drink [the bitter waters]; for breaking the neck of the heifer; and for purifying the metzora.

    The whole night is valid for reaping the Omer and for burning fat and limbs [on the altar]. This is the general principle: any matter whose commandment is during the day, is valid all day and any matter whose commandment is at night is valid all night. Gemara. From where do we know this? Because the verse says, “And these days shall be mentioned and kept” (Esther 9:28). For reading the Hallel: As it is written, “From the rising of the sun to its going down” (Psalms 113:3). R. Joseph says: Because it is written, “This is the day which the Lord has made” (Psalms 118:24). For the taking of the lulav: As it is written, “And you shall take for yourself on the first day” (Leviticus 23:40). For the blowing of the shofar, as it is written, “It is a day of blasting for you” (Numbers 29:1). For the additional sacrifices, as it is written, “Each on its own day” (Leviticus 23:37).
     
  17. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Num 10:2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.

    Num 10:10 Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the LORD your God.​

    Yom Teruah is the beginning of the 7th month. It begins when the new crescent is sighted at night. Therefore, the silver trumpets are blown at night at the "beginning of your month". The shofar is also blown on the new moon of Yom Teruah based on Psalm 81:3.
     
  18. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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