LDS What the Mormon missionaries taught me...

[BigDaddy4]

I do not denounce it, because it is a true worhip of God and Jesus. The ordinances and covenants we make, make us better people. The work we do there is salvific for those who have not had the opportunity to hear or do these ordinances and covenants while on the earth, so now they get that opportunity.
It is an act of love, that Jesus says is necessary or the whole earth would come under a curse. (see Malachi 4:5-6)

Your works are meaningless. As much as you can do (2 Nephi 25:23) and God will do the rest is a false teaching not found in the Bible. Also, your church makes themselves judges of those who have died. You don't know if they are saved or not. Only God knows, and nothing you can do changes that. (Hebrews 9:27, Luke 16:19-31)

Your criteria was:

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. Do you think for 1 moment that I would allow myself and my wife and my children to be compromised in any way by a temple service that is disgusting or sexual or irreverent or blasphemous. I would be the first one to step forward and denounce it.

I would think participating in a ceremony or activity in the temple that goes against the Bible would be "irreverent" and/or "blasphemous" and you would denounce such things. But it appears you have different standards or definitions for those things.

Jesus was sent to teach the 'milk' of the gospel and to get the NT started in the right direction.

Incorrect. Jesus was sent to save us from our sins (John 3:16-17) and to give life (John 10:10). Jesus never mentions his purpose was to provide milk. That's your false interpretation and teaching.

Why would the Corinthians resist receive the 'meat' of the gospel?? It is the same attitude that you have about the higher level of commitment that is necessary to go to the Mormon temple. It requires you to be more committed to the higher path of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Not another gospel, but a higher level of the same gospel. You resist it also. The temple was part of the 'meat' that the apostles could not bring to the first century church. Nor do most mainstream Christians get it today either. They are only trying to live the 'milk' level of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Your "milk" references are always taken out of context. For example in 1 Cor 3:
2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly?

Notice that they are still holding on to their worldly way of thinking (jealousy, quarrelling). Going from worldly to spiritual thinking is going from milk to meat. The Bible is full of spiritual ways of thinking. Using the 1 Cor passage above, for example, Paul later goes on to some of the "meat" in 1 Cor 13 regarding love. One who has love (meat) has moved on from jealousy and quarreling (milk).

Jesus gave us the 2 greatest commandments - love God, love others. Learning how to do each one better is moving from milk to meat.

 

[Peter1000]

Your works are meaningless. As much as you can do (2 Nephi 25:23) and God will do the rest is a false teaching not found in the Bible. Also, your church makes themselves judges of those who have died. You don't know if they are saved or not. Only God knows, and nothing you can do changes that. (Hebrews 9:27, Luke 16:19-31)

Doing all you can and God will do the rest is the perfect doctrine from the bible that incorporates all the scriptures into that one doctrine. You see, the bible teaches us not only to believe, but to be baptized of water and of the HS, to pray, to repent, to do good works, to endure to the end, to love one another, to love God and Jesus, to do good for those who need our good works, etc., etc., etc. So the bottom line doctrine is we do all that we can and then we leave the rest up to Jesus and his grace and mercy.

My reading of the entire genre of scriptures in the bible, that provide the path to being saved, says that Nephi in the BOM is correct and it agrees 100% with the bible, but not quite as succinct as he put it.

So I agree with Jesus, Peter, James, John, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke and Nephi, they all teach the true words of Jesus.

 

[Peter1000]

I would think participating in a ceremony or activity in the temple that goes against the Bible would be "irreverent" and/or "blasphemous" and you would denounce such things. But it appears you have different standards or definitions for those things.

Just because it is not clear in the bible, does not mean it is not true. God is not restricted to a few words he and his prophets said 3,400 years ago (OT) or even 2,000 years ago (bible). God can say and do what He wishes, not what you think He can do.

So you think that if He said something for JS to do and JS ran to the bible and then ran back to the Lord and said, "I will not, because it is not in the bible", what do you think the Lord would do?

Going from worldly to spiritual thinking is going from milk to meat.

I would agree with that to a point. I would say it this way. Going from worldly to spiritual thinking is like going from a lower level of Christianity (millk) to a higher level of Christianity (Meat). The those on the lower level of Christianity have already been taught the love of God and of your fellow man. That is a fundamental teaching of Jesus.

The Corinthians were not able to even live this level (milk level). Therefore Paul could not even begin to teach them the higher level of Christianity (meat), because the higher level demanded a higher level of commitment to live the law of Christ, and a higher level of knowledge about Jesus and God, that would help them be willing to increase their commitment to Jesus, knowing the blessings that awaited them on earth and in heaven. You see, when you leave behind jealousy and quarreling and live a life of loving God and loving your neighbor, you are ready to move to a higher level of Celestial marriage, work for the dead, home teaching, higher priesthood activity, etc., etc., etc.

Jesus gave us the 2 greatest commandments - love God, love others. Learning how to do each one better is moving from milk to meat.

The only thing I can say about this, is that I believe the love of God and one another is the fundamental doctrine (milk) of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Jealousy and quarreling is not any level of Christianity. It was not the 'milk' level at all, but was anti-Jesus. So to call jealousy and quarreling the 'milk' of the gospel of Jesus Christ is not right. I know this because the Corinthians could not live the fundamental laws of Christ, rather they were were not even at the 'milk' level. Therefore Paul could not take them to the 'meat' level.[/QUOTE]

 

[BigDaddy4]

Doing all you can and God will do the rest is the perfect doctrine from the bible that incorporates all the scriptures into that one doctrine. You see, the bible teaches us not only to believe, but to be baptized of water and of the HS, to pray, to repent, to do good works, to endure to the end, to love one another, to love God and Jesus, to do good for those who need our good works, etc., etc., etc. So the bottom line doctrine is we do all that we can and then we leave the rest up to Jesus and his grace and mercy.

My reading of the entire genre of scriptures in the bible, that provide the path to being saved, says that Nephi in the BOM is correct and it agrees 100% with the bible, but not quite as succinct as he put it.

So I agree with Jesus, Peter, James, John, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke and Nephi, they all teach the true words of Jesus.

The Bible does not teach works-based salvation, which is what you are subscribing to.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Just because it is not clear in the bible, does not mean it is not true. God is not restricted to a few words he and his prophets said 3,400 years ago (OT) or even 2,000 years ago (bible). God can say and do what He wishes, not what you think He can do.

So you think that if He said something for JS to do and JS ran to the bible and then ran back to the Lord and said, "I will not, because it is not in the bible", what do you think the Lord would do?



I would agree with that to a point. I would say it this way. Going from worldly to spiritual thinking is like going from a lower level of Christianity (millk) to a higher level of Christianity (Meat). The those on the lower level of Christianity have already been taught the love of God and of your fellow man. That is a fundamental teaching of Jesus.

The Corinthians were not able to even live this level (milk level). Therefore Paul could not even begin to teach them the higher level of Christianity (meat), because the higher level demanded a higher level of commitment to live the law of Christ, and a higher level of knowledge about Jesus and God, that would help them be willing to increase their commitment to Jesus, knowing the blessings that awaited them on earth and in heaven. You see, when you leave behind jealousy and quarreling and live a life of loving God and loving your neighbor, you are ready to move to a higher level of Celestial marriage, work for the dead, home teaching, higher priesthood activity, etc., etc., etc.



The only thing I can say about this, is that I believe the love of God and one another is the fundamental doctrine (milk) of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Jealousy and quarreling is not any level of Christianity. It was not the 'milk' level at all, but was anti-Jesus. So to call jealousy and quarreling the 'milk' of the gospel of Jesus Christ is not right. I know this because the Corinthians could not live the fundamental laws of Christ, rather they were were not even at the 'milk' level. Therefore Paul could not take them to the 'meat' level.

[/QUOTE]

Your re-definiton of Scripture is not accurate. Paul considered them "infants in Christ", not anti-Jesus. Your "higher level" is the lds fabrication and is not supported by Biblical Scripture. It is a works-based theology, which is counter to the faith-based theology the Bible teaches. You are confused because you don't understand the differences.

 

[Rescued One]

I would agree with that to a point. I would say it this way. Going from worldly to spiritual thinking is like going from a lower level of Christianity (milk) to a higher level of Christianity (Meat). The those on the lower level of Christianity have already been taught the love of God and of your fellow man. That is a fundamental teaching of Jesus.

WHOA! Loving God and humans is NOT a low level of Christianity! There is NOTHING higher than those TWO commandments. Christians, even new Christians, are being transformed; it's called sanctification. A new Christian isn't zapped into perfection, but he has been purchased by Christ. He needs to grow and will grow. Paul didn't tell them their growth wouldn't take place.

2 Peter 3
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Peter 1
3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

2 Timothy 4
16At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. 17Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. 18And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Titus 3
3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Throughout the Six Discussions, the interested non-member is never told that temple marriage is a commandment. People are baptized without that knowledge.

It's not a commandment. It's a covenant. Not getting married is not a sin. You have a bad misunderstanding of LDS Christianity.

 

[Rescued One]

It's not a commandment. It's a covenant. Not getting married is not a sin. You have a bad misunderstanding of LDS Christianity.

I've been here since 2002 and I'm totally okay with criticism or misunderstanding from LDS. I've studied Mormormonism for decades.

In Mormonism, temple marriage is a commandment. The ones who are relegated to being angels for eternity do not have eternal life. Exaltation is eternal life in the presence of the Father and Son. Refusing to marry is considered breaking a commandment. Making no effort to marry is the same as refusing.

Scriptures declare that “it is lawful that [a man] should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation.”18Another affirms that “the man [is not] without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.”19Thus, marriage is not only an exalting principle of the gospel; it is a divine commandment.
Celestial Marriage - Elder Russell M. Nelson


The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32–34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and the understanding of the truth; and ‘live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God’” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

We must be baptized.

We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.

We must receive the temple endowment.

We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to:

Love God and our neighbors.

Keep the commandments.

Repent of our wrongdoings.

Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.

Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.

Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.

Have family and individual prayers every day.

Teach the gospel to others by word and example.

Study the scriptures.

Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow His direction in our individual lives.
Chapter 47: Exaltation

 

[RevelationTestament]

I've been here since 2002 and I'm totally okay with criticism or misunderstanding from LDS. I've studied Mormormonism for decades.

In Mormonism, temple marriage is a commandment. The ones who are relegated to being angels for eternity do not have eternal life. Exaltation is eternal life in the presence of the Father and Son. Refusing to marry is considered breaking a commandment. Making no effort to marry is the same as refusing.

Scriptures declare that “it is lawful that [a man] should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation.”18Another affirms that “the man [is not] without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.”19Thus, marriage is not only an exalting principle of the gospel; it is a divine commandment.
Celestial Marriage - Elder Russell M. Nelson


The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32–34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and the understanding of the truth; and ‘live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God’” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

We must be baptized.

We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.

We must receive the temple endowment.

We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to:

Love God and our neighbors.

Keep the commandments.

Repent of our wrongdoings.

Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.

Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.

Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.

Have family and individual prayers every day.

Teach the gospel to others by word and example.

Study the scriptures.

Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow His direction in our individual lives.
Chapter 47: Exaltation

I will concede that GAs talk that way, but imho it is a poor choice of words. There is not one single scripture of the Church saying marriage is a "commandment."
You'll note in that list:
"Repent of our wrongdoings." Not getting married is not a wrongdoing - there is nothing to repent of. Again it is not a sin. One only sins when they break commandments. Marriage is a covenant between man and wife. It is not forced by God.
If you find something different in any of the accepted codified scripture of the Church, I will eat my words. God has commanded that the Church accept the principle of polygamy, but that is not commanding marriage.

 

[Rescued One]

I will concede that GAs talk that way, but imho it is a poor choice of words. There is not one single scripture of the Church saying marriage is a "commandment."
You'll note in that list:
"Repent of our wrongdoings." Not getting married is not a wrongdoing - there is nothing to repent of. Again it is not a sin. One only sins when they break commandments. Marriage is a covenant between man and wife. It is not forced by God.
If you find something different in any of the accepted codified scripture of the Church, I will eat my words. God has commanded that the Church accept the principle of polygamy, but that is not commanding marriage.

No commandments are forced by God. I don't care whether or not you eat your words. I'm not here to make anyone eat their words. If not doing something is so serious it keeps you from becoming like God, you can not claim you broke no commandment and are still worthy of eternal life.

You'll note in that list:

We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.

 

[Rescued One]

1. • “The gift promised to those who receive this covenant of marriage and remain faithful to the end,that they shall ‘have no end,’ means that they shall have the power of eternal increase. Only those who have this power will truly ‘know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent.’
     Others may see the Lord and may be instructed by him but they will not truly know him or his Father unless they become like them” (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, 247).
   • Chapter 28: Celestial Marriage
   • 
   • LDS Doctrine and Covenants Student Mnual Enrichment G, p. 395

Pearl of Great Price, Moses 1
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

As we talk about marriage, we remember, as Luke says:

“Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.” (Luke 13:24.)

Only through celestial marriage can one find the straight way, the narrow path. Eternal life cannot be had in any other way. The Lord was very specific and very definite in the matter of marriage. He said:

“For this is a day of warning, and not a day of many words. For I, the Lord, am not to be mocked in the last days.” (D&C 63:58.)

Marriage—The Proper Way - new-era

The scriptures say that “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” (Matt. 22:32.)

There are no dead except those who have chosen to be dead as to the law, dead as to the benefits, dead as to the blessings, dead as to the eternal nature of the gift.

In our own day there are many people who form their own conclusions, and do their own rationalizing, and calculate and evaluate and develop their own opinions, and “kick against the pricks,” and close the door to their own opportunities.

Marriage—The Proper Way - new-era

 

[dzheremi]

I have a more general question about Mormon missionary talks/meetings: Is there a general time frame in which the set discussions are meant to happen? Like if there are six set talks or whatever, then is it supposed to go one talk per week, so as to complete the catechesis of the potential new Mormon in six weeks, or one per month, or what?

Six talks seems like a short period, unless they are spread out over multiple meetings per lesson. Could that be one reason why so many ex-Mormons seem to have a feeling that their former church 'lied' to them? I'm trying to give Mormons the benefit of the doubt here, and thinking that maybe they can't get through absolutely everything in such a short time, and that this combined with the extreme naivete of the teenaged/early twenties average missionaries (which I don't mean as a slander, only a potential explanation as to why they might just not know everything that is required in their religion) might explain what you find or don't find in the talks as they are actually given in any particular instance.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I have a more general question about Mormon missionary talks/meetings: Is there a general time frame in which the set discussions are meant to happen? Like if there are six set talks or whatever, then is it supposed to go one talk per week, so as to complete the catechesis of the potential new Mormon in six weeks, or one per month, or what?

There are not six lessons and not a designated time frame for anything. The information Phoebe has been posting here is years out of date.

Rather, everything is tailored for that individual person. In addition to missionary lessons, a person attends church, takes classes, reads scriptures themselves and provided many other resources. Every effort is made to encourage learning and growth in faith.

 

[dzheremi]

Hmm. It's "out of date"...so it would have at one time been as Phoebe Ann described? One of the reasons I'm asking is that my own family's interaction with the Mormon missionaries was so long ago by this point (~20 years ago) that I can't really remember anything about the format. I wonder if how they did it back then would've been more like what Phoebe Ann describes or what you describe.

Not that it matters, I guess. Just curious.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Hmm. It's "out of date"...so it would have at one time been as Phoebe Ann described? One of the reasons I'm asking is that my own family's interaction with the Mormon missionaries was so long ago by this point (~20 years ago) that I can't really remember anything about the format. I wonder if how they did it back then would've been more like what Phoebe Ann describes or what you describe.

Not that it matters, I guess. Just curious.

20 years ago, there teaching structure was more structured, with a basic six lessons, plus whatever else and could take as long as the person requested. Of course a person was also supposed to attend church, takes classes, reads scriptures themselves and provided many other resources.

 

[Ironhold]

Yeah; you'll sometimes hear people talk about conversions taking place in as little as a month, but those are actually quite rare, and often preceded by informal missionary work done by others beforehand.

"Several months" is a more realistic time frame nowadays, if not a year or more.

 

[dzheremi]

Hmm. Interesting. Thanks, Jane Doe and Ironhold.

 

[Rescued One]

Hmm. Interesting. Thanks, Jane Doe and Ironhold.

From the first visit to baptism was 21 days during which time I attended high school classes and attended Mormon church meetings and met with the missionaries at home.

 

[Rescued One]

I'm trying to give Mormons the benefit of the doubt here, and thinking that maybe they can't get through absolutely everything in such a short time, and that this combined with the extreme naivete of the teenaged/early twenties average missionaries (which I don't mean as a slander, only a potential explanation as to why they might just not know everything that is required in their religion) might explain what you find or don't find in the talks as they are actually given in any particular instance.

The missionaries didn't lie to me. They taught the lessons exactly as prescribed by their church. They gave me a paperback Book of Mormon, no Doctrine and Covenants, and no Pearl of Great Price. None of their scriptures were available in the school library and I had no access to a public library.

 

[Ironhold]

Good luck getting a public school library to have anything. I remember that all my high school had was a Book of Mormon and a rather infamous anti-Mormon piece from the 1980s.

Public libraries have been hit-or-miss.