what tell us the Gospel about the death sentences

[samir]

The teaching of Jesus on that quote, clearly indicates that Jesus does not like that the men tyrannize the nations, nor oppress with their power. That's why Jesus said the apostles: "Among you there must not be so"

No it does not. Jesus simply said he doesn't want the leaders of the church to guide their flock like them. He said nothing about whether he approved or disapproved of the leaders who tyrannize the nations.

And Jesus also taught that no one should kill in any case, because He said that he who is without sin be the first to throw a stone against the sinner, and this means that no one has, and no one had, authority to kill others because all men are sinners

That's not a logical conclusion either. There are many reasons Jesus could have opposed stoning the woman to death (such as her accusers weren't present, she wasn't found guilty) that has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus being opposed to the death penalty.

 

[Porque77]

No it does not. Jesus simply said he doesn't want the leaders of the church to guide their flock like them. He said nothing about whether he approved or disapproved of the leaders who tyrannize the nations.

It is not so. Jesus Christ commanded men forgive seventy times seven and "YOU SHALL NOT KILL" .

 

[mikedsjr]

That's not a logical conclusion either. There are many reasons Jesus could have opposed stoning the woman to death (such as her accusers weren't present, she wasn't found guilty) that has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus being opposed to the death penalty.

I don't recognize the text as Scripture based on new findings. Maybe it occurred, but it is not authority text, in the opinion of manuscript authorities.




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[~Anastasia~]

Only God knows the hearts of men and all things eternal. Only God has the right to give and take life. I do not believe the death penalty is defensible from the point of view of belief in Christ, just as no other killing of human beings would be either.

Who can know but that a man's heart may be changed? Perhaps we stand on the way of that if we kill him. It is not something I would want to be responsible for before God.

Human beings are created in the image of God, and there is a certain sacredness to all human life for that reason. They should be in God's hands and His alone.

 

[samir]

It is not so. Jesus Christ commanded men forgive seventy times seven

That was about Christians forgiving other Christians who repent. Not unrepentant serial killers convicted of murder.

"YOU SHALL NOT KILL" .

I think he said "YOU SHALL NOT MURDER" which means to kill unlawfully. The state has a right to execute evildoers so those killings are not unlawful.

 

[samir]

I don't recognize the text as Scripture based on new findings. Maybe it occurred, but it is not authority text, in the opinion of manuscript authorities.




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My study bible has a note about it not being found in earlier manuscripts so I agree it could have been added later and the whole situation may not have occurred. All the more reason not to rely on it.

 

[Porque77]

That was about Christians forgiving other Christians who repent. Not unrepentant serial killers convicted of murder.

I think he said "YOU SHALL NOT MURDER" which means to kill unlawfully. The state has a right to execute evildoers so those killings are not unlawful.

It is not so. Jesus Christ commanded men forgive seventy times seven and "YOU SHALL NOT KILL" .

Judaizing new religions and new bibles Judaizing now they want to change everything. But always it is known the commandment as: "Thou shalt not kill."

The prophets before Jesus Christ tell us that the scribes changed the law of God. So said the prophet:
"my people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us ? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes" (Jer 8:7-9).
And Jesus Christ came back to teach us the true God's Law:
"All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you , do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Mat 7:12)

 

[Archie the Preacher]

The initial post is another example of reading the - rather lacking - KJV without any further study, without any further reading in the Bible and jumping to an erroneous conclusion.

 

[Porque77]

All the commandments of the Gospel are merciful. And the Gospel contains the true law of God.

The precepts of the Old Testament which command kill people, are just precepts of men.

Jesus abolished from the Old Testament all the precepts of men.

 

[Porque77]

The initial post is another example of reading the - rather lacking - KJV without any further study, without any further reading in the Bible and jumping to an erroneous conclusion.

 

[Porque77]

I do not see it as you say ... thank you.

 

[Porque77]

The initial post is another example of reading the - rather lacking - KJV without any further study, without any further reading in the Bible and jumping to an erroneous conclusion.

Well, let's see the initial message

 

[Porque77]

Here I remember the initial message to you explain what you mean:

Many religions and many religious, for different reasons, preach that Christians can kill the men who commit certain serious offenses. They justify death sentences in many cases ... These religious who accepted penalties death as if were God's law , are justified in many old testament laws ... But, what tell us the Gospel about the death sentences and respect for the lives of people?... The Gospel tells us: 'Thou shalt not kill,' and also, 'He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her' (John 8:1-11). With these teachings, Jesus Christ took away all authority to every man to kill the men.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Here I remember the initial message to you explain what you mean:

Sure. Pay attention.

The Ten Commandments list ten or eleven, depending on how one reads them, prohibitions. The initial listing in Exodus 20 runs through verse 3 to 17. Roughly in the middle is the commandment - from the KJV - "Thou shalt not kill". Then later in various places in the Torah, the commandment to execute people who commit various crimes are given. Offenses include just about all forms of sexual impropriety, from unmarried and consensual fornication to rape to homosexual behavior to flouting the authority of the priest - and therefore God - to pretending to speak in the name of the Lord without direct commission from the Lord. Too many to list.

To a superficial review, this seems like either the Lord is a multiple - and disagreeing - personality OR, as your post implies, later scribes and nameless persons altered the texts by setting forth those capital crimes and demanding execution.

This line of reasoning misses a couple salient points.

The word in the Decalogue which is translated by the KJV as 'kill' is the Hebrew word [transliterated] "ratsach" (Strong's H7523). It can be translated 'kill' but means "murder".

The word used in other portions of the Law to demand execution for a crime is [transliterated] "muwth" (Strong's H4191) and means 'to die as penalty', but can also be translated on a word for word basis as 'kill'.

When the KJV translators did the translation work, they translated into the English of the 17th Century, using the words as meant in the original Hebrew which matched - in their minds - the then current English words. Either that, or they were a bit sloppy at times in their choice of words at times.

The point is this: The commandment in the Decalogue is a prohibition against what English speaking people today would refer to as 'murder', not merely 'homicide' in the legal sense.

The citation of Jeremiah used to undergird the allegation the Mosaic Law was 'tampered' is a misunderstanding or misapplication of what the Lord instructed Jeremiah to say (write). The whole passage of Jeremiah 8, starting with four and ending in thirteen is a prophesy against the nation Judah (inhabitants of Jerusalem) of destruction because they intentionally departed from the commandments of the Lord in their lives, goals and behavior toward the Lord.

So the initial post in this thread was indeed erroneous. And I've heard this particular nonsense for years; always coming from a very superficial reading of the text without further study.

So that explains what I mean. By the way, none of the current English Bible translations make that error in the Decalogue.

 

[Porque77]

What does that have to do with the government executing people? Are you saying the government should preach the gospel too?

That is monstrous, and unrelated to what the Gospel commands.

The government should preach the gospel too..

All the commandments of the Gospel are merciful. And the Gospel contains the true law of God.

The precepts of the Old Testament which command kill people, are just precepts of men.

Jesus abolished from the Old Testament all the precepts of men.

 

[Porque77]

That is monstrous, and unrelated to what the Gospel commands.

The government should preach the gospel too..

All the commandments of the Gospel are merciful. And the Gospel contains the true law of God.

The precepts of the Old Testament which command kill people, are just precepts of men.

Jesus abolished from the Old Testament all the precepts of men.

The prophets before Jesus Christ tell us that the scribes changed the law of God. So said the prophet:

"my people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us ? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes" (Jer 8:7-9).

And Jesus Christ came back to teach us the true God's Law:

"All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you , do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Mat 7:12)

 

[Porque77]

The point is this: The commandment in the Decalogue is a prohibition against what English speaking people today would refer to as 'murder', not merely 'homicide' in the legal sense.

There is no homicide in a legal sense, because Jesus Christ annulled from the Old Testament all mandates that ordered men to kill people, since Jesus said that who is without sin, throw the first stone, and all men are sinners, so nobody has the right to take life of people.

The citation of Jeremiah used to undergird the allegation the Mosaic Law was 'tampered' is a misunderstanding or misapplication of what the Lord instructed Jeremiah to say (write). The whole passage of Jeremiah 8, starting with four and ending in thirteen is a prophesy against the nation Judah (inhabitants of Jerusalem) of destruction because they intentionally departed from the commandments of the Lord in their lives, goals and behavior toward the Lord.

You mention everything except the change of the law, which is really what Jeremiah said:

"my people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us ? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes" (Jer 8:7-9).

It's that simple. God's law was changed by the scribes, so in the Old Testament there are many commandments ordering to men kill people.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Porque77, Sorry to have bothered you with fact.

 

[Soyeong]

Many religions and many religious, for different reasons, preach that Christians can kill the men who commit certain serious offenses. They justify death sentences in many cases ... These religious who accepted penalties death as if were God's law , are justified in many old testament laws ... But, what tell us the Gospel about the death sentences and respect for the lives of people?... The Gospel tells us: 'Thou shalt not kill,' and also, 'He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her' (John 8:1-11). With these teachings, Jesus Christ took away all authority to every man to kill the men.

John 8:1-12 is an example of Jesus following the law rather than making changes to how it is obeyed. There was no judge to pronounce a sentence (Deuteronomy 19:17-21), there was no man accused (Leviticus 20:10), he didn't have any witnesses to examine (Numbers 35:30, Deuteronomy 17:6, Deuteronomy 19:5), he did not have a confession, so if he had condemned her, then he would have acted in violation of the law. Just a few verses later Jesus said that he judged no one (John 8:15) and he also said that he came not to judge (John 12:47), so he did not exercise authority as a magistrate and did not condemn her, but he did recognize her action as sin, and told her to go and sin no more. The people in this passage were trying to trick Jesus into making a judgement, which he avoided doing, so he was not taking a stance against obeying his law.

 

[Porque77]

Porque77, Sorry to have bothered you with fact.

You have not bothered me. What I have written is for you to see where your mistake