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Featured what tell us the Gospel about the death sentences

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Porque77, May 17, 2016.

  1. Porque77

    Porque77 Newbie

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    “You shall not murder" or "You shall not kill" is the same, because the True God's Law command men not kill and not hurt people, because Jesús said that the Law and Prophets is this:

    "All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you , do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." ( Matthew 7:12 )


    The letters attributed to Paul say that we are subject to the authorities, without distinguishing between good and bad authorities:

    "Every person submit himself to the higher authorities, because there is no authority but from God, and those that are, by God have been established ....... because not in vain carries the sword ....... Therefore it is necessary to be subject, not only because of punishment, but also because of conscience, for this is why you also pay tribute ...... "(Romans 13: 1-6)

    This is what the letters say: that we do everything the rulers say, without distinguishing between good and bad rulers. And they also say that "not in vain does he carry the sword" (to wound or kill), justifying with it the terrible punishments and the death penalties. But Jesus Christ had commanded the opposite, for he had said that the leaders of the nations tyrannize them and that among us it should not be like this:

    "Jesus called them and said to them," You know that the rulers of the nations tyrannize them and that the great oppress them with their might. Among you it should not be so, but if one of you wants to be great, be your servant; and whoever wants to be first among you, let him be the servant of all; in the same way that the son of man has not come to be served, but to serve and give his life in the redemption of many. "(Matthew 20: 25-28.)

    Jesus Christ did not send us to preach letters attributed to Paul. Jesus Christ commanded to preach the Gospel.

    Paul's letters were long time in the hands of the scribes of the Roman Empire. And we must be careful what is written in the letters, because some commandments of the letters are contrary to the commandments of Jesus.
     
  2. Porque77

    Porque77 Newbie

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    One example of commandment that is not merciful: "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth"

    And and one example of commandment that is merciful: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"

    That shows that the True Judge is Jesus Christ, and the true Judgment is to keep and apply the commandments that Jesus taught, because they are the merciful and kind commandments.
     
  3. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    I betcha Jesus the Christ and His closest 11 personally witnessed "capital punishment" at the hands of:

    1. The Romans in rule / government control
    2. Certain Jewish / Samaritan sects

    What were their opinions on "capital punishment" based on??:

    1. OT Scripture
    2. Jesus' laws, precepts, example, etc...NT

    My best guess:
    Jewish judges among Jewish people fairly judged.

    OT:
    Leviticus 24:17[ An Eye for an Eye ]
    ‘If a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death.

    NT:.

    Matthew 5 (NASB)...annotated
    38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’
    39 But I say to you,
    do not resist (fight with) an evil person;
    but whoever slaps ( ackhands) you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.(ONCE!!!)
    (to let his anger cool!..you are allowed to defend yourself!...we are NOT pure pacifists!)
    40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
    (you will aways lose in unjust courts...SETTLE!!)
    41 Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
    42 Give to him who asks of you, (be kind and generous to all!)
    and do not turn away from him (a believer) who wants to borrow from you.

    "Neither a borrower nor a lender be" is from Shakespeare's Hamlet. Ben Franklin would say?

    43 “You have heard that it was said,
    ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
    44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
    45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven;
    for He causes His sun to rise on the evil (unjust) and the good (just),
    and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
    46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?
    Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
    47 If you greet only your brothers,(saved brethren) what more are you doing than others?
    Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
    48 Therefore [aq]you are to (TRY to) be perfect,
    as your heavenly Father is (ABSOLUTELY) perfect.
     
  4. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    Response TO POST #181"

    Q: ...“You shall not murder" or "You shall not kill" is the same
    ?..."

    A: NO! False Logic!!

    Matthew 7(NASB)...end of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount to crowds: THE GOLDEN RULE: for living Man-to-Man
    12 “In EVERYTHING (MATTHEW, CHAPTERS 5 AND 6 AND 7), therefore,
    treat people the same way you want them to treat you,
    for this is (a short human) summary of the (spirit of the) (Mosiac) Law and the Prophets.

    Luke 24:44...COMPARE: post resurrection Jesus to His closest 11...
    Now He said to them,
    “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you,
    that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

    A rule did not fulfill / complete...Jesus did!

    Q2: ..."The letters attributed to Paul say that we are subject to the authorities, without distinguishing between good and bad authorities:...?

    God did not NEED to. Paul did not NEED to!!

    Romans 13 (NASB)....ALL BELIEVERS: Be Subject to Government...a command!
    13 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities.
    >>>For there is no authority except from God,<<<
    and >>>those which exist (GOOD OR BAD! are established by God.<<<
    2 THEREFORE whoever RESISTS authority has opposed the ordinance of God;
    and they who have OPPOSED will receive condemnation upon themselves.
    3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil.
    Do you want to have no fear of authority?
    Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
    4 >>>for it (authority) is a minister of God to you for good.<<<
    But if you do what is evil, be afraid;
    for it does not bear the sword (power to kill / divide!) for nothing;
    >>>for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.<<<
    5 THEREFORE it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.
    6 For because of this you also pay taxes,
    for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
    7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

    Mark 12:17
    And Jesus said to them,
    “Render to Caesar (authority) the THINGS that are Caesar’s (authority's),
    and to God the THINGS that are God’s.” And they were amazed at Him.

     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  5. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    Response to #182:
    Q: ..."the True Judge is Jesus Christ, and the true Judgment is to keep and apply the commandments that Jesus taught,...?

    A: False doctrine (RCC?)

    Ultimate SPIRITUAL JUDGMENTS are made BY God of ALL of Man's IMMORTAL SPIRITS
    as to spiritual POSITION and PRACTICE.
    Christ-followers are not JUDGED as to spiritual POSITION, only spiritual "WORKS"...in or out of the "will of God".
    "JUDGMENT of the Believers' Works"
    1 Corinthians 3: 10-15 ; 2 Corinthians 5 : 6-10
    SENTENCING of UNbelievers....The GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT...Revelation 20: 11-15 (NASB)

    A perfectly JUST God renders perfect JUDGMENTS!

    John 5:22
    For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

    John 3:17-18
    For God did not send the Son into the world to JUDGE the world, (cosmos)
    but that the world might be saved through Him.
    He who believes in Him is NOT judged; (as to spiritual position, only WORKS!)
    he who does not believe has been judged already,
    because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 5:24
    “Truly, truly, I say to you,
    he who hears My word,
    and believes Him who sent Me,
    has eternal life, and
    does not come into JUDGMENT, (as to spiritual position, only WORKS!)
    but has passed out of death into (eternal) life

    Matthew 16:27
    For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels,
    and will then repay (reward / loss) every man according to his DEEDS.(WORKS)

    Hebrews 10:30
    For we know Him who said,
    “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.”
    And again,
    “The Lord will judge His people.”

    James 4:12
    There is only one Lawgiver and Judge,
    the One who is able to save and to destroy;
    but who are you who JUDGE your NEIGHBOR?
    (Command #2: "Love your NEIGHBOR as your SELF")

    Matthew 25:32,46 ...Jesus: His JUDGMENT of the NATIONS (ethnos) who accept / reject Him
    ..."punishment: = SEPARATION SPIRITUALLY for eternity
    All the NATIONS will be gathered before Him;
    and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the
    sheep (believers) from the goats (unbelievers);
    46 These (goat NATIONS / unbelievers) will go away into "eternal (spiritual) punishment", (separation!)
    but the righteous (sheep NATIONS / believers) into "eternal (spiritual) life".”

    1. Define by reference to the Bible WHICH JUDGMENT(S) is/are being referred to:??

    a. JUDGMENT of the NATIONS ...("ethnos=PEOPLES=societies = sheep/goats) ...Psalm 9:19 ; Matthew 25: 31-36 f

    b. JUDGMENT of the Believers' Works...1 Corinthians 3: 10-15 ; 2 Corinthians 5 : 6-10

    c. The GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT...sentencing of unbelievers...Revelation 20: 11-15 (NASB)

    d. BELIEVING SURVIVORS of the GREAT TRIBULATION...Revelation 7:9-17

    e. JUDGMENT of Fallen Spirits: Revelation 20:1-10

    f. JUDGMENT of the NATION Israel....the Major Prophets + Matthew 19:27-30 (NASB)

    John 5:24
    “Truly, truly, I say to you,
    he who hears My word,
    and believes Him who sent Me,
    has eternal life, and
    does not come into JUDGMENT,
    but has passed out of death into life.

    John 3
    18 He who believes in Him is NOT judged;
    he who does not believe has been judged already,
    because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
     
  6. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    Sorry, I don’t think that is a commandment. It seems to be only saying what is just.

    Good, if you obey those commandments. :)
     
  7. Porque77

    Porque77 Newbie

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    You must faithfully write what the scriptures say and do not add things that are not written and that are your interpretation.

    I said you that it's the same: "You shall not murder" or "You shall not kill" because the true God's Law command men not kill and not hurt people, in because Jesús said that the Law and Prophets is this:

    "All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you , do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." ( Matthew 7:12 )

    Therefore, you should not hurt people in any case.


    That is not what Jesus teach us:

    "Jesus called them and said to them," You know that the rulers of the nations tyrannize them and that the great oppress them with their might. Among you it should not be so, but if one of you wants to be great, be your servant; and whoever wants to be first among you, let him be the servant of all; in the same way that the son of man has not come to be served, but to serve and give his life in the redemption of many. "(Matthew 20: 25-28.)

     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
  8. Porque77

    Porque77 Newbie

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    It is not a false doctrine, because the commandments of Jesus are the true commandments of God. And the commandments of the Old Testament that ordered men to apply death sentences, make wars and slavery, were not given by God

    You must not forget that Jesus quoted from the Old Testament certain commands, such as "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", to abolish them because they were only precepts of men, since Jesus did not come to abolish the Law of God.

    "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also....." (Matthew 5:...)
     
  9. Porque77

    Porque77 Newbie

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    It is a commandment, and it is not just, because it was abolished by Jesus, therefore it was a commandment of men, because Jesus did not abolish the true Law of God. Everything that Jesus abolished from the Old Testament were only precepts of men.

    Yes, it's so, it's correct.
     
  10. Porque77

    Porque77 Newbie

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    About slavery, in the "ten commandments" of Exodus, there are commandments that allow men to have slaves. Jesus did not teach the commandments that are written in the ten commandments of the Old Testament that allow to have slaves.

    The Ten Commandments of the Old Testament are not equal to the commandments that teach us in the gospel, there are big differences. I'll give an example: The Old Testament tells us:

    "Keep the Sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee. Six days thou shalt labor, and shalt do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: thou shalt not do any work therein, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maid, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, neither any of thy cattle, nor the stranger that is within thy gates: that thy manservant and thy maid may rest as well as thou". (Deut. 5: 12-15).

    On the contrary, the Gospel tells us:

    "Jesus said unto him, Rise: take up thy bed, and walk. And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and the same day was the Sabbath. The Jews therefore said to him that was made whole, It is the Sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed. He answered them, He that made me whole he said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk" (John 5: 8-11)

    "And therefore the Jews did persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the Sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, My father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him: not only because he had broken the Sabbath: but said also that God was his Father, and made himself equal with God"(John 5: 16-18)


    Jesus did not respected and not fulfilled those laws about the Sabbath written in the Ten Commandments the Old Testament, and it is because Jesus Christ was God and those Old Testament laws were not God's law.

    Commanded God that men were slaves of other men?

    The 10 Commandments of the Old Testament's laws, about slaves, also say:

    "Thou shalt not desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field or his manslave or his maidslave, his ox, or his ass , or any thing that is thy neighbour's" (Deutoro. 5: 21).

    This commandment is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Gospel. Jesus Christ said to a man who had great wealth:

    "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go, sell that thou hast, and give it to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven, and come, and follow me" (Matthew 19: 16-22)

    According to the Old Testament commandment, I should not desire anything from my neighbor although I do not have anything, and my neighbor can wish all things what have their neighbors, and even their lives, taking them as slaves ... This commandment is a contradiction in itself and completely contradicts what Jesus says in the Gospel: "You will love your neighbor as yourself".


    Is not equal say to those living in poverty they not should desire anything from those with great wealth than tell those who have great wealth sell all what they have and give all what they have to the poor. And this is the great difference between the commandments of the Old Testament and the commandments of the Gospel.

    If I should not desire anything that belongs to my neighbor (as says the tenth commandment of Jewish law), then my neighbor should not wish to have his neighbor as slave, BECAUSE HE WANT TO REMOVE THE FREEDOM TO HIM... And freedom is a treasure that belongs to every man, then we remove a great treasure that belongs to him (freedom).
     
  11. Porque77

    Porque77 Newbie

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    Did you understand this?:

     
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