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What Takes Place When A Soul Dies?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by CHRISTgospel, Jul 18, 2002.

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  1. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    Ask any believer of Jesus Christ this question and the standard response will be "you go to heaven or hell." This popular idea that good men go immediately upon death to heaven and bad men to "the other place" is founded on the Hellenic doctrine that man has an immortal soul, which cannot by definition be subject to death.1

    The Bible does not teach that souls are immortal --- only God is immortal.2 Neither does the Bible teach that upon death the souls that die in Christ go to heaven as their reward (or paradise if the soul died before Christ resurrected. R.B. Thieme, Jr. in his booklet Victorious Proclamation, pg 23, states that paradise was the section where the souls of all believers of the Old Testament resided after death [sounds like the sorting of the wheat and the tares even before Jesus has the chance to do this when he comes again and / or judging even before the judgment day comes]. No human being ever went to heaven until Christ entered into the presence of the Father and was accepted as a man). I have problems with this statement because I read in Isaiah 53:9 that Christ made his grave with the wicked and the rich. So that to me means no separation of good and bad souls when they die. I also read in the Bible that no one has ascended into heaven except Jesus, not even king David ascended to heaven. This is touched on later in the paper.

    Jesus, His disciples, and the prophets of old never spoke of the blessed hope being that of disembodied souls going to paradise/heaven for their reward. On the contrary, the Bible teaches that the blessed hope is that of resurrection into our spiritually immortal bodies when Christ comes again. 3
    Let us look to the Bible to find the condition of those who have died and await the bodily resurrection of the dead. We will begin in the Old Testament where we are told that death is a sleep.

    "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers….." 4

    "And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him." 5

    Notice that Isaac breathed his last breath, died, and was buried. Moses does not tell us that Isaac's disembodied soul is now in paradise.
    We find the LORD instructing Nathan, the prophet, to speak these words to David: "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers,……" 6

    We find the prophet Daniel telling us that some souls sleeping will change into their immortal bodies others not. "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 7

    Job tells us what happens when a soul dies. So man lieth down [death], and riseth not: TILL the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 8

    Here is what the apostle Paul teaches on what takes place when a soul dies: "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption 9

    And here is what Peter had to say regarding David. "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 10 Do read again what Peter said, he said, "let me freely speak unto you….." Why did Peter not tell us that David's disembodied soul is now in Heaven with the Lord? Jesus had already ascended to Heaven when Peter spoke these words to the crowd - so why is David not in Heaven at this present time looking down on us as many well meaning pastors tell their flock when loved ones have died? Peter did not freely tell us this because he knows the Hebrew Bible; he knows when we rise again as did Martha in speaking to Jesus about Lazarus that died four days prior to Jesus coming to them. Here is what Martha said to Jesus. Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." 11

    This is what Jesus had to say to His disciples when speaking about Lazarus: After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him." 12
    We should see clearly with the verses above that when a soul dies that soul will sleep in the ground until his resurrection takes place. "For since by man came death, by man came also the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; AFTERWARD they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING." 13

    When reading this verse, I can see in my mind a schoolteacher standing over his students and saying: "now boys and girls we just read when Christ will make us alive - someone please tell me -when do we become conscious again to receive our immortal bodies?" Eager hands wave in the air and one child can't wait for the teacher to pick him and so he shouts, "I know…I know! We come alive and receive our immortal bodies when Christ returns!"

    One steeped in man's tradition that the soul is immortal, which is the mindset of the Greek philosopher Plato which infiltrated the early church, might say, "but what about Paul's statements in 2 Corinthians 5:8 and Phillipians 1:23?" To which my reply is, stop believing the serpent's lie given to Eve "thou shalt not die" and realize that we need to keep in context what it means to be "with the Lord." When did Paul tell us we would be "with the Lord?" Did he not tell us those in Christ would be "with the Lord" at His second coming? 14 And we just read that the dead would be resurrected and gathered to Christ at His coming. Do consider what Paul told the Corinthians. "In a moment in the twinkling an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 15

    The prophet Isaiah is yet another witness to the fact that we receive immortality at the appointed time. But your dead will live; their bodies [the whole conscious man] will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. 16

    Oh, how I long for this day when all those in Christ Jesus will either rise from the dead or in a twinkling be changed into their immortal bodies. The Apostle Paul longs for this day as well.

    In closing, listen well to what Paul said to the Romans: Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 17 Did Paul say that we groaned for our disembodied soul to go to Heaven when we die? No, of course not! Paul knows that when a soul dies; that soul knows nothing - the soul's conscious is no longer alive thinking. Please read Ecclesiastes 9:5 and 9:10. For when a soul dies the spirit [in Hebrew "Ruwach" - the very breath of God that He breathed into man to make him a living soul] returns to God and we cease to exist until our appointed time. His breath [Ruwach] goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. 18 There is no thought of time in the grave; you close your eyes and, yes indeed, the next event that dead souls will see is his resurrection. I pray you too will take part in the first resurrection.
    ______________________________
    FOOTNOTES:

    What Happens When We Die, by Anthony Buzzard, pg. 9
    1 Timothy 6:16
    Titus 2:13, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16
    Deuteronomy 31:16
    Genesis 35:29
    2 Samuel 7:12
    Daniel 12:2-3
    Job 14:12-14
    Acts 12:36-37
    Acts 2:29
    John 11:24
    John 11:11-15
    I Corinthians 15:21-23
    I Thessalonians 4:16
    I Corinthians 15:5-53
    Isaiah 26:19
    Romans 8:23-24
    Psalm 146:4
     
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  2. fakemind

    fakemind in love with God

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    not to get too in depth about this, because im at work, but i did my own personal study on "what happens after we die", and we do immediately go straight to heaven/hell. now, we are not just one item, we have a spiritual self, our soul, and a physical self, our body. our body does indeed die, and goes to the dust in the ground. upon Jesus's return, the people who have already died and are in heaven, their body is resurrected anew. the people who are still living get immediately transformed into their new body. so although our physical self, our body, may indeed die, our spiritual self, our soul, does indeed go straight to heaven or hell.

    id be more than happy to share my study with anybody who's interested, send me a PM or email me, (im not sure i'll remember to check back here) :)

    much Christian love!
     
  3. Gerry

    Gerry Jesus Paid It All

    +9
    Good! A very good beginning point Fakemind.
     
  4. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

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    You speak of the soul as if it were immortal. That is clearly not shown in Scripture. We need to under stand what the word "soul" is speaking of.

    The word "soul" is used in Scripture to denote the vital principal in animal bodies, and also the living creatures themselves, particularly, man. Psalms 40:14; Isaiah 53:10-12; 1 Samuel 18:1-3. It is practically synonymous with the word "life" (Matthew 16:26). Although occurring hundreds of times in the Old and New Testaments, in no case is it ever associated with the words "immortal", "immortality", "eternal", "undying", "incorruptible", and like terms implying life without end.
    On the contrary, its nature is characteristically temporal.

    It dies (Ezek. 18:4-20; Psalms 22:29; 33:19; 56:13; 78:50; 116:8; James 5:20; Revelation 16:3)

    It can be killed or cut off (Exodus 12:15-19; 31:14; Lev. 7:25-27; 19:8; 22:3; Numbers 9:13; 15:30-31; 19:13-20)

    It goes to the grave (Job 33:18-22; Psalms 49:8-15)

    And it can be utterly destroyed (Lev. 23:30; Josh. 10:28-39; 11:11).

    Not only that, but when we die, we have no knowledge of anything.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
     
  5. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    SO VERY TRUE DRMMJR!

    I used to believe that the soul was immortal and went on to heaven or hell but then I understood the truth.

    and what is that passage that man is like the beast? they go to the same grave and return to dust from whence they came? oh yes

    Eccl 3:19For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

    if what befalleth man befalleth beasts - then the mean pitbulls and rockweilers are in "hell" and the sweet loving collies are in "heaven" hmmmm
     
  6. fakemind

    fakemind in love with God

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    im writing a devotion on what happens after we die, dealing with what happens to our body after we die, and what happens to our soul after we die. however, in the meantime, im curious as to how somebody who believes that we simply "sleep" (do not go directly to heaven or hell) after death, and must wait until Jesus's second coming before we actually goto heaven or hell, feels about the following passage:

    Luke 23:39-43 (nkjv)
    Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

    where Jesus says today you will be with Me in Paradise.

    much Christian love!
    (ps. as always, lets discuss this with love and attempting to keep unity in the body! :) )
     
  7. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    Fakemind...you have a wonderful spirit about you - thank you! Consider this, okay and then give thoughts"Then he said, ‘Jesus, remember me in your kingdom.’ He replied to him, ‘Amen, I say to you today you will be with me in paradise."
    This verse will take two entirely different meanings depending on where you put the comma. In Greek there are no commas, so when the Bible is translated into English the translator puts the comma where he thinks it should go. But if the translator believes in Greek type spirits that leave your body at death, he is going to put the comma after "you" before "today." The other place it can go, the correct place is after "today."
    There are many examples of people saying "I tell you something today (right now)." It was a common way of speaking. In my files I have a list of 49 examples of this way of speaking. Here are seven of them:
    "Take to heart these words which I enjoin on you today" (Deuteronomy 6:6).
    "If you obey the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I enjoin on you today, loving him..." (Deuteronomy 30:16).
    "I tell you now that you will certainly perish" (Deuteronomy 30:18).
    "I call heaven and earth today to witness against you" Deuteronomy 30:19).
    "The statues and the decrees which I enjoin on you today" (Deuteronomy 7:11).
    "Besides setting up on Mount Ebal these stones concerning which I commanded you today" (Deuteronomy 27:4).
    "Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all men" (Acts 20:26).
    All these are excellent examples, but the best is Paul’s statement, "I declare to you today." It is identical to Jesus’ statement.
    I say to you today = I declare to you today
    Jesus and Paul are saying. "I am telling you this moment, right now."
    I have in my files 44 more examples like the ones above
    Let’s see the consequences of both. If we use the first interpretation that the thief was in paradise with Jesus that day, then we run into the same problems that we had with the spirit of Jesus going to the Father. Jesus tells us three days after his burial that he has not yet been to the Father (John 20:17). He also tells us that he has been in the earth, not in paradise (John 12:32). If Jesus has not been to the Father, then how can we expect the thief to be in paradise with Jesus that very same day? Notice also that the thief asks Jesus to remember him when he comes into his kingdom.
    The kingdom of God = Paradise
    The kingdom of God has obviously not come yet. After Jesus resurrected, he appeared to the Apostles and instructed them on the kingdom of God for forty days (Acts 1:3). They then asked him:
    "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).
    Even after the resurrection, the kingdom of God had still not come – Jesus is not here on the earth. So how could the thief have been in the kingdom on that very same day?
    If we use the other way of interpreting this verse, it means that the thief asked Jesus to remember him when his kingdom comes. Jesus replies to him at that moment, that on that day, you will be with. With this interpretation there are no contradictions and we do not have to throw away 20 to 30 verses on death that will also contradict the previous interpretation.
     
  8. fakemind

    fakemind in love with God

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    CHRISTgospel,
    heres my thoughts. :)

    ive heard the "comma doctrine" before myself, but i find it an ignorant argument. it would be similar to me saying: "the greek does not have the type of words that we have, like "the", "a", and "an". Jesus said 'I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life', but since greek doesnt have the word 'the' Jesus might have said, 'I am A way, A truth, and A life' couldnt he?" -- and i think thats simply an argument with only half knowledge, if that, about greek - and a wrong argument.

    I believe the translators were correct in their comma usage. If we dont agree with the commas in the Bible, im sure i could rearrange commas in other verses to make them say lots of different things!

    As to John 12:32 and John 20:17 ... I dont see how 12:32 says Jesus has been in earth and not paradise, or how John 20:17 says He has never been with His Father, only that He has not yet ascended to His Father. perhaps you could elaborate more?

    However ... What about the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)? What about Enoch, who didnt die but was taken to heaven (Gen 5:22-24). What about Elijah that was taken to heaven in a firey chariot (2 Kings 2:11)?

    much Christian love! :)
     
  9. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    The problem with Enoch is two-fold Fakemind.
    The first is in Genesis 5:24, it states: "Then Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here, for God took him."

    In order to understand this verse you will have to read all of chapter five. People claim that since of everyone else it is said, "then he died" and of Enoch it is not, but instead it says that he "walked with God, for God took him," then that means that Enoch went to heaven with God. If you read the paragraph that talks about Enoch without this preconceived idea, you will come to the conclusion that Enoch died.
    It says in verse 23:"That the whole lifetime of Enoch was three hundred and sixty-five years."

    To me that implies that Enoch’s whole lifetime was three hundred and sixty-five years and then he died. I do not see any hint that Enoch did not die. It says that "Enoch walked with God," but so did Noah in Genesis 6:10:
    "Noah, a good man and blameless in that age, for he walked with God."
    "Walked with God," means that the person follows God’s will. "God took him," means that God took his breath of life and that person died. We still use this saying today, we commonly say that God took a family member or a friend when we mean that someone died. The word translated as "took" is the Hebrew word laqah. It means:
    laqah – of removal by death (The Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon).

    An excellent example of the usage of this word is in Ezekiel 33:6:
    "But if the watchman sees the sword coming and fails to blow the warning trumpet, so that the sword comes and takes (laqah) anyone, I will hold the watchman responsible for that person’s death, even though that person is taken (laqah) because of their own sin."

    Notice how it is used, the sword comes and takes someone, in other words, kills someone. This is why the watchman will be held responsible for that person’s death.

    So why is there a difference between the phrases of all the other people mentioned and Enoch? There is no clear-cut answer, but my opinion is that something happened to Enoch that cut his life short. Either an accident or illness, but something that prevented him from dying of old age like the others. Everyone mentioned lived to over nine hundred years old, except Lamech who lived to almost eight hundred years old. However, Enoch only lived to be three hundred and sixty-five years old. Something happened to Enoch that cut his life short; this is why it is said, "God took him."

    HEAR: The second verse is in Hebrews 11:5 where Paul is speaking about the faith of the ancients. It says:
    "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was found no more because God had taken him."

    The problem that we arrive at if we say that because of this verse Enoch did not die, is that the same author in the same chapter in verse 13 says that all the ancients that he was talking about (which Enoch was one of) have died:
    "ALLTHESE DIED IN FAITH." So Abraham and Noah and Enoch and all the others mentioned died. So how do we explain verse 5? The clue is in knowing what the author meant when he said "That he should not see death." Obviously he does not mean that he did not die because he writes a few verses later that he did die.
    In John 8:51 Jesus says:
    "I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death."
    This is identical to Hebrews 11:5. I do not think that Jesus meant that whoever keeps his word will be taken to heaven without ever experiencing death. It is more likely that Jesus means that whoever keeps his word will not experience eternal death. That they will be resurrected on the last day. Hebrews 11:5 meaning is probably along these lines.
    For me, I am convinced that Enoch did die. I cannot let one verse that I cannot explain fully counter all the evidence in the massive amount of verses that are very specific on death.
    Paul who wrote Hebrews says in Romans 5:12:
    "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned."
    Death came to all men, that includes Enoch. This statement of Paul also strengthens the position of Hebrews 11:13 "They all died in faith."
    If we isolate Enoch from all the evidence on death, the preponderance of the evidence is about 75% in favor that Enoch died, and 25% that he did not see death. If we do not isolate Enoch from all the other Scriptures on death Enoch is really not a factor.
    If Enoch went to heaven, then again, we have to assume that Jesus was wrong in John 3:13:
    "No one has gone up to heaven...."
     
  10. fakemind

    fakemind in love with God

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    CHRISTgospel,

    first off let me say that im glad that we are discussing this calmly and without spite or anything else bad. :D

    now onto the discussion...

    i think we're getting into the abiguity of "death". death can mean that a person is no longer here on earth, they are either in heaven or hell. or theres the actual physical act of "dying". and then theres "eternal death", or hell, eternal seperation from God. in Hebrews 11:5, it does say Enoch did not see death, but as you pointed out, later on it says they all "died in faith". to me, "died in faith" when you look at in context, means that they died (no longer in this world death, not actual act of dying death) without receiving their promises; like Abraham who died without seeing the fullness of what God was going to do. they died in faith, but this statement doesnt mean that enoch actually died, meaning physical act of death dying.

    the "comma" doctrine still is unconvincing to me, and i still feel that when Jesus says on the cross, "today you will be with me in Paradise", the translators knew greek well enough to understand the sentence structure and what He was saying, and to put it into english correctly. i dont doubt other places in the Bible things have been said like, "i tell you today, blah blah" and not "i tell you, today blah". however, thats because those verses in greek say it that way. i would hate to think somebody thinks the people who translated the Bible simply guessed where to put commas. its much more in depth than that, and translating the Bible isnt a guessing game.

    besides all this, you failed to discuss Elijah, where it very plainly says:
    2 Kings 2:11 (nkjv)
    Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and seperated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

    (ps. i simply *hate* to debate. but i love when i get to discuss things like this in a calm and loving manner. :) )
     
  11. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Veteran

    +179
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    .....and those of us that aren't organized and well-written enough to carry on a good and in-depth discussion love it too. ;) Thank you. :D
     
  12. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

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    Fakemind - never apologize for debating the Holy Writ with others - it is how we sharpen our beliefs, yes? We should always be like the Bereans of Acts 17:11

    They all died, Fakemind, (dead as a doorknob as my kids state) - and it means just that...that they died a physical death and Enoch is included as died in the flesh

    now for Elijah - please consider this - This verse has of course been taken to mean that Elijah went to heaven and then so will we when we die. The Jewish word that is translated as heaven literally means, "sky." I will explain this verse by saying that what happened to Elijah was not that he was taken up to heaven where God dwells, but that he was translated to another location on earth. This explanation is very easy to prove. Read 1 Kings 18:7-16 where Elijah is speaking to Obadiah, King Ahab’s vizier. We see in verse 8 that Elijah asks Obadiah to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here. Obadiah replies that there is no nation or kingdom that Ahab has not searched for Elijah in, and that they could not find him. In verse12 Obadiah says to Elijah that he is afraid to go and tell Ahab that Elijah is here because when he leaves, the Spirit of the LORD will carry him off somewhere that he does not know, and Ahab will have him killed.
    "After I leave you, the Spirit of the LORD will carry you to some place I do not know, and when I go to inform Ahab and he does not find you, he will have me killed."

    Being translated is not too common in the Bible but it does happen. Philip was translated in Acts 8:39:
    "When they came out of the water, The Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away and the eunuch saw him no more."
    *****Another excellent verse to show that Elijah is still on earth after the event on the chariot of fire is that he writes a letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chronicles 21:10-13 telling him that the LORD will strike his people with a great plague. Verse 12 is worth quoting:
    "He (Jehoram) received a letter from the prophet Elijah with this message."
    The crucial point in these verses is that Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram who was the son of King Jehoshaphat. Elijah was transported during the reign of King Jehoshaphat. Jehoram came after Jehoshaphat, and it was Jehoram that received a letter from Elijah. The obvious conclusion is that Elijah is still alive here on earth. *****

    If Elijah did go to heaven, then how could we explain Jesus’ statement in John 3:13: "No one has gone up to heaven."

    Is Jesus wrong? Or is it that man’s interpretation of this verse is wrong?
     
  13. fakemind

    fakemind in love with God

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    heya!

    im going to continue this discussion, but im probably not gonna be able to post until like monday (busy weekend).

    have a good weekend! :)

    much Christian love!
     
  14. fakemind

    fakemind in love with God

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    ok, yes, im late, but better late than never. ;-)

    heres yet *another* Biblical example showing we dont go into some "slumber" until Jesus comes back.

    if you look in Luke 16:19-31, you'll notice the rich man went to hades (hell). now, if you read in Revelation 20:14, it talks about in the end times death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire, and this is the second death. now, why would there be any need for a "hades" if nobody went to heaven/hell until Jesus came back. because it seems that when Jesus comes back, those in hades get cast into the lake of fire, and those that are unsaved when Jesus come back seems like they get directly cast into the lake of fire, and those who have already been dead and unsaved, who are in hades, get thrown into the lake of fire also. if nobody went to heaven/hell until Jesus comes back, it would seem a waste for God to create a hades thats not going to ever get used.

    (continuing the discussion...) :)

    - jeremiah
     
  15. fakemind

    fakemind in love with God

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    oh, one more thing about elijah - simply because there was a letter from elijah sent to a king does not mean anything that elijah was still on earth. they didnt have fed ex back then to ship letters overnight. and if you read about the last days of elijah, they were not easy-going days - he could have very well written it before he went to heaven, and the letter reached the king at a later date.

    - jeremiah
     
  16. fakemind

    fakemind in love with God

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    ok, if you read in *first* kings 22:50, it states that "When Jehoshaphat died, he was buried with his ancestors in the City of David. Then his son Jehoram became the next king." - and then in *second* kings 2:11 it mentions that elijah is taken away. it seems to me that the timeline presented by CHRISTgospel might not be accurate afterall.

    ill hafta post more tonite, i *really* need to geto work. ;)

    - jeremiah
     
  17. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

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    You have to look at where the translated word "hell" came from to understand it's meaning. It is derived from the Anglo-Saxon word "helan" which means "to cover" or "to hide out of sight". The word is was used by translators for the Hebrew word "sheol" which means grave, and of the Greek word "hades" which also means grave.

    What is a grave? It's where someone is buried, covered, or hid out of sight. So if someone is in sheol, they are in the grave, or "hell". Years ago, after the crops had been harvested, farmers would "hell" their potatoes for the winter. What they did was to dig a hole, put the potatoes in it, and then cover them up. When they needed a potatoe, they would go out and dig one up.

    As you have noted, in Revelation it speaks of death and hell.

    Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


    But notice that death and hell delivered up the dead that were in them for judgement. And then after that death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. But the dead will have to go through judgement before either entering into the kingdom or thrown into the lake of fire.
     
  18. fakemind

    fakemind in love with God

    168
    +0
    Christian
    drmmjr,
    please forgive me if i sound rude, thats not my intent at all, but i dont see how your last post defended the "you dont goto heaven/hell after you die" doctrine.

    if you read in Luke 16:19-31, the rich man was very much in hades (hell), and in anguish and agony ~aka~ pain. he was not slumbering until Jesus came back, but already in hell. it says in Revelation that everybody in hades will be cast into the lake of fire.

    if you want to discuss the word "hades" thats fine, but in Luke 16:19-31 the place where the rich man was at is discribed as "hades"...

    Luke 16:23 (nkjv)
    And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    im not going to debate the definition of "hades", because its very clear the place of torments where the rich man went was called "hades".

    - jeremiah
     
  19. hokus

    hokus New Member

    3
    +0
    I apologize for the intrusion but i just had to drop a couple of my thought down if thats ok
    well ive been reading what you "Christ gospel" wrote and I disagree on what you said about what happens after death.

    Deutreronomy 34:1 ; Joshua 1:2
    in these scriptures the Lord tells us "Moses my servant is dead."
    well in Matthew 17:3 it tells us that Mose was there with Jesus conversating with him, after his death. would that require life and intelligent? did the Lord lie when he said Moses was dead? for Moses was not yet resurrected and that Jesus was the firstfruits of the resurrection. 1Cor. 15:20 ; Col 1:18 ; Acts 26:23
    well ive got more i can share and some explanations on the scriptures you brought up but my time is up. ill try next time when im on.
    peace
    God bless
     
  20. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    But you need to remember that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable that Jesus is using to explaing to the Pharisees that whenever a prophet was sent to tell them (the Jewish people) what they needed to do, they wouldn't listen to the prophet. And that they wouldn't listen to him either. Even though he would die and be raised from the dead. And because that they wouldn't listen to the prophets or Jesus, they would lose out on eternal life.

    It's a story. If it were depicting a real event, then rich people go to "hades", while poor people go to "Abraham's bosom". If you will note, the rich man died and was buried.

    As I mentioned before, to understand how "hell' and "hades" are used, you need to know where the words came from, and what they are translating.
     
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