What should the punishment be for enjoying gore?

lawtonfogle · Mar 30, 2011

By enjoying, I mean purposeful watching for enjoyment.

Being that gore involves either the death of extreme mutilation of an individual anyone who gains any enjoyment from it (sadistic, sexual, or what have you) and thus enjoys (purposefully watches for entertainment) gore creates a demand for such. Shouldn't they be charged with a crime similar to mutilating/murdering a person?

Aradia · Mar 30, 2011

lawtonfogle said:
Being that gore involves either the death of extreme mutilation of an individual

Or special effects. Next!

Skavau · Mar 30, 2011

lawtonfogle · Mar 30, 2011

Aradia said:
Or special effects. Next!

I'm talking about the real stuff. One may make an argument that fake stuff still encourages the viewing of it, but I don't think that holds enough integrity to use.

Skavau · Mar 30, 2011

Some Liveleak videos have uncut clips of gore. The ones I can remember from the top of my head is a South Asian guy who was literally torn into two pieces after being hit by a truck (he did survive actually) and another was an Indian grabbing hold of a high voltage wires. Why do you imagine people might view them? Purely for purposes of sadism or some fetish?

Aradia · Mar 30, 2011

lawtonfogle said:
I'm talking about the real stuff. One may make an argument that fake stuff still encourages the viewing of it, but I don't think that holds enough integrity to use.

You never specified. Choose your words more carefully. Would you like to start over?

wanderingone · Mar 30, 2011

lawtonfogle said:
By enjoying, I mean purposeful watching for enjoyment.

Being that gore involves either the death of extreme mutilation of an individual anyone who gains any enjoyment from it (sadistic, sexual, or what have you) and thus enjoys (purposefully watches for entertainment) gore creates a demand for such. Shouldn't they be charged with a crime similar to mutilating/murdering a person?

Watching actual events where images are ... say the evidence of crimes committed or acts of war etc...? Watching simulated events? Watching films that include criminal acts such as sexual/physical torture that are created expressly for an audience to watch as entertainment?

Actual events that are leaked, - probably the crime should be whatever currently exists for accessing confidential documents, I believe that such evidence should have limited access to protect victims, but I also don't believe that persons viewing such documents are guilty of anything more (or less) than what they would be charged with if the contents were not blood and guts.

Simulated acts- no crime, just questionable taste no punishment.

Actual acts of a criminal nature created specifically for the enjoyment of those who like to watch others suffer;, they contribute by purchasing access to the criminal act and should be charged in some way- much like someone who enables any criminal act to proceed.

rjc34 · Mar 31, 2011

lawtonfogle said:
By enjoying, I mean purposeful watching for enjoyment.

Being that gore involves either the death of extreme mutilation of an individual anyone who gains any enjoyment from it (sadistic, sexual, or what have you) and thus enjoys (purposefully watches for entertainment) gore creates a demand for such. Shouldn't they be charged with a crime similar to mutilating/murdering a person?

Thoughtcrime has no business being punished by anyone other than the person's own conscience. There are a bunch of sites around the web dedicated to collecting and hosting videos and pictures of extreme gore.

Should a man be convicted of adultery for gazing lustfully at pornography? Or *gasp* even masturbating to it?!

As a case in point of something very similar: in countries where (graphically drawn) child pornography is legalized, the rates of child abuse go down significantly. Do you think this is wrong or should be punishable?

SithDoughnut · Mar 31, 2011

lawtonfogle said:
By enjoying, I mean purposeful watching for enjoyment.

Being that gore involves either the death of extreme mutilation of an individual anyone who gains any enjoyment from it (sadistic, sexual, or what have you) and thus enjoys (purposefully watches for entertainment) gore creates a demand for such. Shouldn't they be charged with a crime similar to mutilating/murdering a person?

Why should they be punished for something they didn't do? Should people who buy guns be punished for murder?

lawtonfogle · Mar 31, 2011

SithDoughnut said:
Why should they be punished for something they didn't do? Should people who buy guns be punished for murder?

Same reason we punish people who 'enjoy' child pornography?

Especially when you consider that even the fake stuff, created using special effects/photoshop/ect. is illegal. Even just plain drawings are illegal.

I know in the US we have a major double standard between sex and violence. If I show a kid SAW, people will raise an eyebrow at most. But I'm just wondering if anyone can defend that double standard here.

This is based off a friend of mine who recently mentioned he has come across NSFL (not safe for life) videos before, which includes things like real decapitations. He mentioned he doesn't seek them out, but by his admission it was clear he watches the entire thing even though he knows what it is. The way people reacted to him saying this, and these were seniors and grad students at college, so people who are on average at least a standard deviation above average, was as if this was perfectly normal. Had he admitted that sometimes he comes across child pornography, not that he seeks it out, but that he still watches the entire thing once he finds it, I'm not sure he would have had any friends left.

lawtonfogle · Mar 31, 2011

rjc34 said:
Thoughtcrime has no business being punished by anyone other than the person's own conscience. There are a bunch of sites around the web dedicated to collecting and hosting videos and pictures of extreme gore.

Should a man be convicted of adultery for gazing lustfully at pornography? Or *gasp* even masturbating to it?!

As a case in point of something very similar: in countries where (graphically drawn) child pornography is legalized, the rates of child abuse go down significantly. Do you think this is wrong or should be punishable?

What about special effect generated child pornography which is indistinguishable from the real stuff (by any normal person)... much like on CSI or SAW or any number of movies, you can't tell the real gore from the fake? Yet that is clearly illegal?

Skavau · Mar 31, 2011

lawtonfogle said:
Same reason we punish people who 'enjoy' child pornography?

And that, I don't necessarily approve of. Better to go after people who actually try to film child pornography, not viewers. Would you contend, in an ideal world that all artistic representation of child pornography and gore should be illegal?

Had he admitted that sometimes he comes across child pornography, not that he seeks it out, but that he still watches the entire thing once he finds it, I'm not sure he would have had any friends left.

Yes, that is because viewing child pornography is considered worse than the viewing of gore. There is no taboo against being a horror movie and thriller movie buff (some gory) but there is against child pornography. This is in part because those who view child pornography are literally mandating its continuation. When you're viewing gore, it isn't necessarily due to a desire to see people decapitated, or their guts spilled across the floor. It is mostly curious and for shock value.

Archer93 · Mar 31, 2011

lawtonfogle said:
By enjoying, I mean purposeful watching for enjoyment.

Being that gore involves either the death of extreme mutilation of an individual anyone who gains any enjoyment from it (sadistic, sexual, or what have you) and thus enjoys (purposefully watches for entertainment) gore creates a demand for such. Shouldn't they be charged with a crime similar to mutilating/murdering a person?

My handful of cents-
If someone deliberatly seeks out and/or purchases material that shows a real person being deliberatly killed and/or mutilated in order to create the material, they should be treated as an accessory to the crime.
In the same way, someone who deliberatly seeks out and/or purchases material that shows real children be molested should be charged as an accessory.

Stumbling across NSFL videos taken from newsreels or CCTV, or however else footage of real but not planned gore is obtained- there isn't a child porn equivalent.
Horrific car crashes happen by accident. Child abuse- not so much.

Sidebar- not all enjoyment of gory fictional films is sadistic. I've a pet theory about the relationship between Greek tragedies and horror films based on the concept of catharsis- the purging of emotions through pity and terror.

lawtonfogle · Mar 31, 2011

Skavau said:
And that, I don't necessarily approve of. Better to go after people who actually try to film child pornography, not viewers. Would you contend, in an ideal world that all artistic representation of child pornography and gore should be illegal?

In an ideal world, it wouldn't exist (except perhaps for special effects produced stuff, and I agree special effects produce stuff involving no actual harm should be legal).

Yes, that is because viewing child pornography is considered worse than the viewing of gore. There is no taboo against being a horror movie and thriller movie buff (some gory) but there is against child pornography. This is in part because those who view child pornography are literally mandating its continuation. When you're viewing gore, it isn't necessarily due to a desire to see people decapitated, or their guts spilled across the floor. It is mostly curious and for shock value.

Likely a result of not having an industry producing fake pornography. Most gore Americans watches is fake, produced by the entertainment industry. If the only gore out there was the real stuff, I would bet there would be a much greater stigma.

lawtonfogle · Mar 31, 2011

Archer93 said:
My handful of cents-
If someone deliberatly seeks out and/or purchases material that shows a real person being deliberatly killed and/or mutilated in order to create the material, they should be treated as an accessory to the crime.
In the same way, someone who deliberatly seeks out and/or purchases material that shows real children be molested should be charged as an accessory.

Would you support an industry attempting to create fake stuff?

All in all, I find you views far more consistent than the average.

Stumbling across NSFL videos taken from newsreels or CCTV, or however else footage of real but not planned gore is obtained- there isn't a child porn equivalent.
Horrific car crashes happen by accident. Child abuse- not so much.

But they are sometimes caught on camera by accident, albeit rarely.

Sidebar- not all enjoyment of gory fictional films is sadistic. I've a pet theory about the relationship between Greek tragedies and horror films based on the concept of catharsis- the purging of emotions through pity and terror.

So is this just releasing 'built-up' emotion? What would the use of that be?

yasic · Mar 31, 2011

Archer93 said:
Stumbling across NSFL videos taken from newsreels or CCTV, or however else footage of real but not planned gore is obtained- there isn't a child porn equivalent.
Horrific car crashes happen by accident. Child abuse- not so much.

What about random videos that happen to catch a naked child (for instance a video someone was taking on a beach where the naked child of another family was caught in the view)? Do you believe it should be illegal to view those, why or why not?

yasic · Mar 31, 2011

My beliefs are similar to Archers:

If you watch or buy videos depicting real gore or abuse of any (non-consensual) kind, you should be charged as a lesser accessory.

If you watch or buy videos of fake or (consenting) acting, then there is nothing wrong and no crime should be charged.

Archer93 · Mar 31, 2011

lawtonfogle said:
Would you support an industry attempting to create fake stuff??
All in all, I find you views far more consistent than the average.

For clarity, by 'child' I mean 'prepubescent' as opposed to underage teenagers.

I already support an industry that produces fake gore.
As for child pornography- well, better fake than real. I wouldn't personaly support it, as my interests don't lie in that direction. Ideologically- if the availability of illustrated child pornography reduces the incidence of real life child molestation, as has been suggested in this thread, then yes, I would support it.

But they are sometimes caught on camera by accident, albeit rarely.

Child abuse? True. In that case, the footage would be of a crime and would, I think, already be covered. I think that buying or selling evidence in a criminal case is already illegal, but I don't know for sure.
The viewer didn't commission the crime, but they are benefiting from it, and i think that's already covered by law.

A lot of 'I think's there. I am not a lawyer.

So is this just releasing 'built-up' emotion? What would the use of that be?

Um. This might be one of those 'If you have to ask the question....' moments...
Basically- stress release. Different people have different ways of relieving stress.

Archer93 · Mar 31, 2011

yasic said:
What about random videos that happen to catch a naked child (for instance a video someone was taking on a beach where the naked child of another family was caught in the view)? Do you believe it should be illegal to view those, why or why not?

Um. Interesting question.
Even assuming the viewer is viewing it as a means of sexual gratification, it's not intended to be porn, and no harm is done to the child.
If it works as a release for the unfortunate whose inclinations lie in that direction, preventing them from acting out in real life, it would be counterproductive to make it illegal.

Of course, if there's no sexual intent, there's no problem.

lawtonfogle · Mar 31, 2011

Archer93 said:
Um. This might be one of those 'If you have to ask the question....' moments...

Depends if I'm being facetious or not.

Basically- stress release. Different people have different ways of relieving stress.

Including sexual stress/tension/desire, no? Thus I really question the wisdom of making fake porn images illegal. I'm wondering what do you think the reaction would be if we didn't allow the catharsis of gore/violence related emotions?

Either way, I learned a new word.

What should the punishment be for enjoying gore?

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