What Serena Williams's scary childbirth story says about medical treatment of black women

[Almost there]

1) Chronology does not make a stronger argument.

I was making the point that my post was more than "is not". It was, rather, arguing that we both posted sources. You just didn't like mine.

 

[Albion]

The statistics have been posted in this very thread, including more information in the articles, so even if you anecdotally have seen something, the bigger picture is that African Americans are receiving worse treatment.

So, that must mean that EVERY African-American receives worse care because, well, everyone's a racist. No, I don't think that can be sustained.

 

[RDKirk]

So, that must mean that EVERY African-American receives worse care because, well, everyone's a racist. No, I don't think that can be sustained.

No, that's not what it "must" mean.

 

[Albion]

No, that's not what it "must" mean.

But you are not the one who said it ("so even if you anecdotally have seen something, the bigger picture is that African Americans are receiving worse treatment.").

 

[RDKirk]

But you are not the one who said it ("so even if you anecdotally have seen something, the bigger picture is that African Americans are receiving worse treatment.").

When I was a young intel analyst in a particular unit in the 70s, it was discovered and verified that the First Sergeant and the commander were consistently and deliberately following a task assignment practice that was materially detrimental to the black clerk-typists in the unit.

That practice did not apply to us "secret squirrels" behind the Green Door. It did not affect me because the circumstances in which I worked physically prevented their discriminatory assignment practices. As well, behind the Green Door, the First Sergeant and commander did not have direct task assignment ability--they would have had to relay the assignments through others in the chain of command who would immediately detect the trend.

The fact that their practice did not affect every black troop in the unit did not mean the practices were not racist. They were racist where they thought they could get away with being racist.

 

[Albion]

I thought we were discussing medical care.

 

[Almost there]

I thought we were discussing medical care.

I think the main argument being made by the op is that Black women are dying because of institutional racism. People are arguing the idea that this exists.

 

[Albion]

That's not how the part I questioned was worded. Yes, it's true that threads start with a certain premise but drift into something that's related to it but not right in step with it.

 

[rambot]

The stats above are about the home with a father. I'm talking about the rate of fatherless homes.

False. See second column. And if you are talking about REALLY fatherless (like dead), well, I'm not sure you can be an absent father if you're dead.

This reminds me of the WHO stats on health care and how low the US rates because of the way they skew information and results. Simple example: If some in the US get amazing health care and some get poor health care, the US scores LOWER than what Trump would call a "****hole" country, where EVERYBODY gets poor health care. The reason? Everyone is treated more equal in the latter.

The US doesn't rate poor across teh board. They rate poor in SOME rubrics though, you are right. That said, I think your understanding may be a bit of skewed. It's not because of "more equal" treatment. It's because the mean standard of treatment CREATES BETTER OUTCOMES. So then yes, care WOULD be better in the poor country. That's a fact that you don't have to like but rankings are based on HEALTH OUTCOMES not some namby pamby whatever. IT's as simple as an outcome.

It's the old phrase, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Statistics are fine, but when they seem to defy reality, you may want to check the raw data on which they are based.

But here's the problem Almost there: You are working backwards and not allowing your stats to show reality. MY stats show that black men are AS involved in their kids' lives as kids from other races in similar living conditions.
You suggest that my statistics "defy reality" when IN reality, you are living with an uninformed bias that my research proves. So really, it's not about "defying reality", it's about "defying how I understand reality".
I LOVE stats and research that run counter to what I believe but I can assure you that yes, I DO check them vigourously if they seem REALLY out there. If a good case is made, I'll change my mind.

 

[rambot]

I was making the point that my post was more than "is not". It was, rather, arguing that we both posted sources. You just didn't like mine.

Oh! Oh! That may be a BIT too flippant. It's not that I don't "LIKE" yours: I outlined why I think your source made a poor argument. And you have not rebutted my argument; you remain convinced I'm just in ad hominem mode.

 

[Rion]

Getting back on topic... it seems like they're grasping at straws why she wasn't listened to, rather than the obvious "You're not a doctor, I am" answer. Despite the fact that she's far richer than almost anyone here will ever be, she's somehow oppressed because doctors don't listen to self-diagnosis. Ookay.

 

[SummerMadness]

Getting back on topic... it seems like they're grasping at straws why she wasn't listened to, rather than the obvious "You're not a doctor, I am" answer. Despite the fact that she's far richer than almost anyone here will ever be, she's somehow oppressed because doctors don't listen to self-diagnosis. Ookay.

Yes, even if I am treated differently due to my skin color and that leads to more negative outcomes, that is not a problem because I have money. Yeah, even of the statistics demonstrate that my income doesn't matter in receiving less optimal care, let's ignore those facts to claim that you have a lot of money, so your sub-optimal care should be acceptable.

 

[Rion]

Yes, even if I am treated differently due to my skin color and that leads to more negative outcomes, that is not a problem because I have money. Yeah, even of the statistics demonstrate that my income doesn't matter in receiving less optimal care, let's ignore those facts to claim that you have a lot of money, so your sub-optimal care should be acceptable.

You sound like those rich kids at Dartmouth, etc. who were claiming that they were far more oppressed than their poor white peers, just because of their skin color. It's often been pointed out, but I'll do so again: Intersectional Social Justice types love to talk about everything except class, and that's because they're usually upper-middle class or upper-class people, and so they have to force the narrative that money and standing mean nothing, otherwise they cannot claim to be oppressed.

 

[Almost there]

But here's the problem Almost there: You are working backwards and not allowing your stats to show reality. MY stats show that black men are AS involved in their kids' lives as kids from other races in similar living conditions.

Yes. My point is that, "statistically", a MUCH greater percentage of black kids live in fatherless homes. I'm focusing not on "how fathers relate in fatherless homes", but that fatherless homes don't have a lot of father presence (duh) and a much higher percentage of black children come from fatherless homes.

And coming from a fatherless home has a lot more impact than the color of your skin on your chances of having a successful life.

 

[Almost there]

You sound like those rich kids at Dartmouth, etc. who were claiming that they were far more oppressed than their poor white peers, just because of their skin color. It's often been pointed out, but I'll do so again: Intersectional Social Justice types love to talk about everything except class, and that's because they're usually upper-middle class or upper-class people, and so they have to force the narrative that money and standing mean nothing, otherwise they cannot claim to be oppressed.

There is a reason people aspire to money and standing.

 

[rambot]

Yes. My point is that, "statistically", a MUCH greater percentage of black kids live in fatherless homes.

I think I'm confused about exactly what you mean when you say fatherless?
You mean dead dads? Incarcerated?

Because simply being divorced/seperated is not a "fatherless family". And, as indicated, families where the parents are seperated tend to have good black dad involvement compared to other groups.

 

[rambot]

You sound like those rich kids at Dartmouth, etc. who were claiming that they were far more oppressed than their poor white peers, just because of their skin color. It's often been pointed out, but I'll do so again: Intersectional Social Justice types love to talk about everything except class, and that's because they're usually upper-middle class or upper-class people, and so they have to force the narrative that money and standing mean nothing, otherwise they cannot claim to be oppressed.

So the experience of upper middle and upper class blacks who ALSO get harassed by cops means......

 

[Almost there]

I think I'm confused about exactly what you mean when you say fatherless?
You mean dead dads? Incarcerated?

Because simply being divorced/seperated is not a "fatherless family". And, as indicated, families where the parents are seperated tend to have good black dad involvement compared to other groups.

I believe most of these are "they don't know who their father is" type situations.

And this gets to a core problem with statistics. There is "fatherless" and there is "Fatherless". My wife of twenty years decided one day she didn't want to be married. When she divorced me my daughters were 10, 13 and 16. They became "fatherless". But it happened late and I was still quite involved. There are others where the divorce happens at a very young age. And there are those where the mother never got married and had multiple kids by different dads. My aunt had seven kids, ALL by different fathers. She never even so much as lived with any of the fathers.

But statistics lump all of those together.

That said, check out what portion of the prison population comes from "fatherless" homes. You'll quickly discover that the one common thread going through the prison population is that. It's not about race, income level, etc. It is about coming from a fatherless home.

 

[Hank77]

I think you're right, even though when a patient is so very specific about tests and regimen, you'd think a smart person would stop to listen for a moment and at least check it out or ask more question.

I'd say the recourse, then, is always to have your own doctor on speed dial to back you up.

Obviously they did listen. They got a doctor right away who immediately started verifying what she was saying.

 

[Hank77]

I am sorry you had to go through that, I hope that we can improve things moving forward, if people would simply stop denying the reality of this problem, we can start to see changes because there is no reason for a black woman in America to receive substandard healthcare due to the color of her skin.

Sounds like you need more black women doctors.
Seeing this is such a huge problem what are you and other black women doing about it? What constructive plan have you put together? A charitable foundation that will fund the education of young black women would be helpful. Organize a team in each major city to seek out high school and college age black women to put through school.
The first two women I would seek out would be Oprah and Michelle Obama, not for donations but for wisdom. Oprah knows how to organize successful educational foundations for women and Michelle is an attorney and an organizer. You have a PhD, so you are obviously intelligent enough to do this.