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Featured What period of time are we presently living in?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DavidPT, Jun 30, 2020.

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  1. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


    There are clearly 3 periods of time in view.

    1) was

    2) is not

    3) shall ascend out of the bottomless pit


    Currently which period of time are we living in? Anyone that might choose 3) needs to provide evidence of some kind as to when this time initially began, and not just claim it is so without bothering to prove how it is. Anyone can do that. That's called having an opinion, and not actually proving something instead. As to 2), that was apparently the period of time they were living in when John received the visions. This tells us that martyrs, such as Stephen, were living during the time of 2), therefore one cannot also apply the time of 3) to him as well. That means, even though he was martyred, it had zero to do with being martyred for not worshiping the beast, nor it's image, etc. Those things are not even possible until we enter this time first, that being 3).

    This also brings up another important point.....I saw the souls of them...which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Rev 20:4)..that this particular form of martyrdom is not even possible until we enter the period of 3). But don't some, or maybe even all Amils for all I know, claim there are already martyrs currently reigning in heaven with Christ who have already been martyred during the period of 3)? And does not the period pertaining to 3) involve the 42 month reign of the beast? Would the 42 month reign of the beast be paralleling the thousand years? Of course not.

    The 42 month reign of the beast occurs when satan is not in the pit, and that Revelation 20:4 clearly indicates the 42 month reign of the beast has already come and gone before satan is even released from the pit after the thousand years. So why are none of these things significant, according to Amils? How can Amil be the correct position when the 42 month reign of the beast can't and doesn't fit after the thousand years, but fits prior to them instead? And if Amils place the beginning of the thousand years around the time of the cross, that pushes the time for the 42 month reign back even further, before the time of the cross, though that period of time clearly fits in the end of this age instead.
     
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  2. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli ~□~

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    The age of Aquarius.
     
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  3. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Apparently, you are still living in the 60s and 70s, then. The best years of my life were during the 60s and 70s, but it's 2020 now, and that either we are still in the time of 2), or already in the time of 3).
     
  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    It is not possible to know from Revelation alone.

    We are living in time period 3) because of the parable of the fig tree indicates we are living in the time of Jesus's return.

    And when Jesus returns, He destroys, casts alive that beast in Revelation 17:8 into the lake of fire in Revelation 19.
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    We are right 0n the edge of dramatic events.
    Watch the Middle East get stirred up over Israel annexing the West Bank.

    But I think that will be settled and then they will say: All is peaceful, all secure, THEN........ 1 Thessalonians 5:3

    I do not see any great significance in Revelation 17:8, at this time.
     
  6. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

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    When John wrote revelation Israel "once was" meaning it existed before he wrote it.
    At the time he wrote revelation it "was not" meaning Israel did not exist at that time. He wrote that it "yet will come" meaning Israel would exist once more.

    Revelation 17:8 NIV: The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

    I'd say we are very close to the end of the beast. About 4-5 years away
    After the beast is destroyed I expect a new Israel. One that earns the right to be called Israel.
    One that has overcome.
     
  7. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    One thing I'm trying to get to the bottom of in this thread is this. and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)

    The claim by many Amils is this---there are already, as we speak, martyrs, which had not worshiped the beast, reigning in heaven with Christ a thousand years. In order for that to even be true, we already have to be living in the period of 3) on the list. So when was it that the beast ascended from the pit? What was the date when this initially came to pass? Or if not the date, what event or events prove this has already come to pass? But not only does a beast have to ascend out of the sea(bottomless pit), another one has to rise out of the earth then have the people on earth make an image to the beast with a deadly wound, before there can even be any martyrs in Revelation 20:4 who did not worship the beast's image, thus were killed because of it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  8. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I'm not seeing how Israel is the beast if Israel did exist before John received these vision, but did not exist when John received the visions, but will exist again. The part that doesn't seem to fit is the part that Israel did not exist when John received the visions. What exactly are you meaning by Israel here? Israel means different things to different people. In what way did Israel not exist when John received the visions? Are you meaning as in a nation geographically located, the fact 70 AD caused many of them to be exiled, and many of them to be killed?
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I don't agree with the Amil pov. But your question did not say "has ascended out of the bottomless pit."

    What you have asked, does not presume that if period 3, that the beast has already ascended out of the bottomless pit - but if we are living in the period when it will happen.

    __________________________________________________

    There are clearly 3 periods of time in view.

    1) was

    2) is not

    3) shall ascend out of the bottomless pit


    Currently which period of time are we living in? Anyone that might choose 3) needs to provide evidence of some kind as to when this time initially began, and not just claim it is so without bothering to prove how it is. Anyone can do that.
    _________________________________________________

    The beast has not yet ascended out of the bottomless pit - but because we are living in the parable of the fig tree generation, we are living in that period when it will happen.

    A person could equally say we are living in the period of "is not", and not be wrong either.
     
  10. shilohsfoal

    shilohsfoal Newbie

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    The country/kingdom
    When John wrote revelation, there was Palestine.
     
  11. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    This makes the point I'm trying to make. If that is the period of time we are still in, which means the beast hasn't even ascended out of this pit yet, this alone would prove Amils are wrong to claim that there are already martyrs reigning a thousand years in heaven with Christ, who have been martyred for refusing to worship the beast. Even though you and I don't agree with the Amil pov, obviously Amils do agree with it, and that some reading these threads, who haven't made up their minds one way or the other yet, could maybe find Amils' arguments more convincing, even though their arguments are not even logical when examining them in light of the texts involved.
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The Amil view is so baseless, I don't spend any of my time arguing it down. When people get into the Amil mode, they are not going to change. I don't think that are many, if any, fence sitters reading the posts presented on this forum. I could be wrong.
     
  13. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    In the OP I also brought up the following, which is directtly connected to the 3 periods of time. Since there is a period of time called 'is not', this could actually maybe prove the thousand years that Amil claim have been underway for the past 2000 years. But where the problem lies is with Revelation 20:4, the fact that verse already has saints martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast before satan is loosed from the pit. Amils therefore can't logically place the 42 month reign after the thousand years if they have already been martyred during the 42 months before satan is loosed. Amil can't even work unless the 42 month reign of the beast is after the thousand years. Anyway, below is what I also brought up in the OP, which is directtly connected to the 3 periods of time.


     
  14. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Maybe that's what I need to learn how to do as well. Sounds like good advice, except I can't seem to help arguing with Amils about these things for some reason. Maybe because in some regards Amil appears to make better sense than Premil? I guess I try to leave room for an open mind in the event Amils could be right about some of these things rather than Premil being right about some of these things.
     
  15. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Dave, it is too complicated for most people to follow that logic and will not read. Too much work, too hard, to read through. imo.

    You need to break up the above with space lines - like I did with this sentence and the one above it.
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Just let it go. I don't argue with preterists about preteristism for the same reason. You will be less stressed out. Focus on what you believe. Not on proving their belief system wrong. People can believe whatever they want.

    My allegiance is to God, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  17. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    The "Mystery of Babylon" is actually very simple to understand...
    within the Biblical CONTEXT of Daniel's Four Kingdoms.



    The Apostle John saw a 7-Headed Beast that "was, and is not,
    and shall ascend out of the Bottomless Pit, and go into Perdition
    ".


    His prophecy was showing the state of the "Kingdom of God"
    while it was still within the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven".


    In this passage, John does not reveal anything about the
    "Season and Time" on earth after the Revelation Beasts
    are destroyed.


    John describes "Mystery of Babylon" at the time of the vision...
    before Satan is loosened to "ascend out of the Bottomless Pit".


    Rev:17:8
    The Beast that thou saw was, and is not; and shall ascend
    out of the Bottomless Pit, and go into Perdition: and they
    [the Foolish Virgins of the 4th Beast] that dwell on the earth
    [during the Great tribulation] shall wonder, whose name were
    not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world,
    when they behold the Beast that was, and is not, and yet is
    [when the Revelations Beast arises].


    The Beast (Kingdom) that John saw "was" because Satan's
    spiritual Kingdom "was" ruling before being "bound" at the Cross.
    The Beast "is not" because Satan's Kingdom had been "bound" in
    the Bottomless Pit during the time John was seeing the vision.


    The same Beast (the same Kingdom) will "ascend out of the
    Bottomless Pit
    " at the sound of the 5th Trumpet
    (also the "1st Woe").


    The same Kingdom of Satan (the same 7-Headed Beast)
    will "go into Perdition" at the end of the "2nd Woe"
    as Satan's Kingdom (represented by the Revelation Beast)
    is "cast alive" into the "Burning Flame" [Dan 7:12] and/or
    into the "Lake-of-Fire" [Rev 19:20].


    The Beast that "was" represents the Kingdom of Satan
    during Daniel's (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom and (2nd) Jewish
    Kingdom. The Beast that "is not" represents the Kingdom
    of Satan during Daniel's (3rd) Christian Kingdom - while
    Satan was "bound" in the Bottomless Pit. The Beast
    "ascending" out of the Bottomless Pit represents the
    Kingdom of Satan during the "1st Woe".


    And the Beast that "goes into Perdition" is the Kingdom
    of Satan as it's destroyed after the "2nd Woe", when
    the Fourth Beast, the "Kingdom of Babylon", is Judged
    by God and then "cast alive" into eternal torment of the
    "Burning Flame" [Dan 7:12] or "Lake-of-Fire". [Rev 19:20]


    Rev 17:9
    And here is the mind which hath wisdom, The SEVEN HEADS
    are seven Mountains [seven Kings/Kingdoms] on which the
    Woman [Babylon] sitteth [rules over]. 10 And there are
    Seven Kings; FIVE ARE FALLEN, AND ONE IS, and the
    other [the Seventh King] is not yet come: [is still a future
    event after John's vision]
    and when he comes he must
    continue for a SHORT SPACE [aka, during Satan's
    "Little Season"].



    The SEVEN HEADS on the Revelations Beast (ruled by
    the "whore" Babylon) represent seven "Kings" and/or
    "Mountains". These Kings are also shown as the
    SEVEN HEADS of Daniel's four Kingdoms. They include
    one head/king from Daniel's (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom (Lion),
    another head/king from Daniel's (2nd) Jewish Kingdom (Bear).
    It includes four heads/kings from Daniel's (3rd) Christian
    Kingdom (Leopard) and the last head/king is from Daniel's
    (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom... namely, the Anti-Christ
    ("Little Horn" or "False Prophet"), for a total of seven "Heads",
    seven "Kings", seven "Mountains".


    Five Kings "are fallen" because (when the Apostle John saw
    the vision) the head/king from Daniel's (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
    and the head/king from Daniel's (2nd) Jewish Kingdom were both
    "fallen". In addition, three (out of the four) heads/kings from
    Daniel's (3rd) Christian Kingdom were also "fallen"... for a total
    of FIVE FALLEN KINGS. The last remaining head/king of the
    New Testament Kingdom had not yet "fallen" because the last
    head/king in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom was also the author
    of the Book of Revelation, the Apostle John.


    When John had the vision, the "King" of the (1st) Pre-Flood
    Kingdom and the "King" of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom were both
    "fallen". In addition, three (out of the four) "Kings" in the (3rd)
    Christian Kingdom had also already "fallen"... for a total of
    FIVE FALLEN KINGS.


    The one King that "is not yet come" [Rev 17:10] is the
    "Little Horn" or "False Prophet" of the (4th) Great Tribulation
    Kingdom. This is the Seventh "King" that arises after the
    "testimony" of the Two Witnesses was "finished"
    (after the Great Commission), when Satan is "loosened"
    from the Bottomless Pit and given spiritual "dominion" over
    the "Wise Virgins" during the "1st Woe".


    It's the Seventh King that led the "Ten Virgins" out of the
    (3rd) Christian Kingdom, as we "went forth" into the Fourth
    Kingdom. It's the Seventh King that "overcomes" and then
    "kills" the Saints during the Reign of the First Revelation "Beast".


    However, the Seventh King only "continues a short space"
    [Rev 17:10]. The Seventh King suffers an apparently fatal wound
    at the END of the "1st Woe". But later he's resurrected as the
    EIGHTH "King"... during the "2nd Woe", the Second Beast.


    Rev 17:11
    And the Beast that was, and is not, even he is THE EIGHTH,
    and is OF THE SEVEN, and [the Eighth Head/King] goeth
    into Perdition.


    The EIGHTH King of the Revelations Beast is "of the seven"
    because that King is the same "False Prophet" (the 7th King)
    after he has been 'resurrected' from his near fatal "wound",
    suffered at the end of the "1st Woe". The Eighth King is
    the same False Prophet ruling over the "image" of the
    First Revelations Beast. This shows the Fourth Kingdom
    during the 6th Trumpet (the "2nd Woe").


    It is this Eighth King that made everyone (in the 4th Kingdom)
    worship the "image" of the First Beast. It was this Eighth King
    that caused everyone (in the 4th Beast) to take the "Mark of
    the Beast
    ". It was this Eighth King that was cast alive into the
    "Burning Flame" or "Lake-of-Fire" at the end of the 4th Kingdom
    - as the Eighth King "goeth into Perdition".


    The "Mystery of Babylon" is a New Testament Commentary
    on Daniel's Four Kingdoms... from the standpoint of the Apostle
    John, living before the Great Commission was finished - and
    before Satan was "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit and given
    "dominion" to rule (through his chief emissary the Anti-Christ)
    during the Great Tribulation Kingdom.


    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  18. grafted branch

    grafted branch Member Supporter

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    Something to consider with Revelation 17:8 is that the KJV has the last phrase as “the beast that was, and is not, and yet is”. NIV has “because he once was, now is not, and yet will come”; NIV has added “will come” to make it match the first part of the verse. I always look at YLT when something is in question.

    YLT Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.

    I think “will come” was not in the original text for a reason. So from Johns perspective the beast was, is not, and is about to come. From a person who is not in the book of life, their perspective is the beast was, and is not, although it is.

    Also from verse 7 John wondered <2296> with great admiration when he saw her (the woman on the beast); in verse 8 the people not written in the book of life will wonder <2296> when they behold the beast. So again it appears there are two different perspectives here; John wonders at the woman, the unsaved wonder at the beast.

    One other thing to note in verse 15 is the waters where the whore sitteth are peoples, multitudes, and nations, and tongues. If the waters and the beast are the same thing then peoples, multitudes, and nations, and tongues also have to be “was, is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss” and “was, is not, although it is”. Back in verse 8 we would have those who are not written in the book of life wonder when they behold peoples, multitudes, and nations, and tongues (the beast). This doesn’t seem to make sense.

    So I don’t think the beast is the water where the whore sits, but he is acting through the waters.

    I’m not trying to promote any position here, just wondering if you have any other thoughts on this.
     
  19. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Rev:17:8
    The Beast that thou saw was, and is not; and shall ascend
    out of the Bottomless Pit, and go into Perdition: and they
    [the Foolish Virgins of the 4th Beast] that dwell on the earth
    [during the Great tribulation] shall wonder, whose name were
    not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world,
    when they behold the Beast that was, and is not, and yet is
    [when the Revelations Beast arises].


    The Beast (Kingdom) that John saw "was" because Satan's
    spiritual Kingdom "was" ruling before being "bound" at the Cross.
    The Beast "is not" because Satan's Kingdom had been "bound" in
    the Bottomless Pit during the time John was seeing the vision.


    The same Beast (the same Kingdom) will "ascend out of the
    Bottomless Pit
    " at the sound of the 5th Trumpet
    (also the "1st Woe").


    The same Kingdom of Satan (the same 7-Headed Beast)
    will "go into Perdition" at the end of the "2nd Woe"
    as Satan's Kingdom (represented by the Revelation Beast)
    is "cast alive" into the "Burning Flame" [Dan 7:12] and/or
    into the "Lake-of-Fire" [Rev 19:20].


    The Beast that "was" represents the Kingdom of Satan
    during Daniel's (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom and (2nd) Jewish
    Kingdom. The Beast that "is not" represents the Kingdom
    of Satan during Daniel's (3rd) Christian Kingdom - while
    Satan was "bound" in the Bottomless Pit. The Beast
    "ascending" out of the Bottomless Pit represents the
    Kingdom of Satan during the "1st Woe".


    And the Beast that "goes into Perdition" is the Kingdom
    of Satan as it's destroyed after the "2nd Woe", when
    the Fourth Beast, the "Kingdom of Babylon", is Judged
    by God and then "cast alive" into eternal torment of the
    "Burning Flame" [Dan 7:12] or "Lake-of-Fire". [Rev 19:20]


    Rev 17:9
    And here is the mind which hath wisdom, The SEVEN HEADS
    are seven Mountains [seven Kings/Kingdoms] on which the
    Woman [Babylon] sitteth [rules over]. 10 And there are
    Seven Kings; FIVE ARE FALLEN, AND ONE IS, and the
    other [the Seventh King] is not yet come: [is still a future
    event after John's vision] and when he comes he must
    continue for a SHORT SPACE [aka, during Satan's
    "Little Season"].


    The SEVEN HEADS on the Revelations Beast (ruled by
    the "whore" Babylon) represent seven "Kings" and/or
    "Mountains". These Kings are also shown as the
    SEVEN HEADS of Daniel's four Kingdoms. They include
    one head/king from Daniel's (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom (Lion),
    another head/king from Daniel's (2nd) Jewish Kingdom (Bear).
    It includes four heads/kings from Daniel's (3rd) Christian
    Kingdom (Leopard) and the last head/king is from Daniel's
    (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom... namely, the Anti-Christ
    ("Little Horn" or "False Prophet"), for a total of seven "Heads",
    seven "Kings", seven "Mountains".


    Five Kings "are fallen" because (when the Apostle John saw
    the vision) the head/king from Daniel's (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
    and the head/king from Daniel's (2nd) Jewish Kingdom were both
    "fallen". In addition, three (out of the four) heads/kings from
    Daniel's (3rd) Christian Kingdom were also "fallen"... for a total
    of FIVE FALLEN KINGS. The last remaining head/king of the
    New Testament Kingdom had not yet "fallen" because the last
    head/king in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom was also the author
    of the Book of Revelation, the Apostle John.


    When John had the vision, the "King" of the (1st) Pre-Flood
    Kingdom and the "King" of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom were both
    "fallen". In addition, three (out of the four) "Kings" in the (3rd)
    Christian Kingdom had also already "fallen"... for a total of
    FIVE FALLEN KINGS.


    The one King that "is not yet come" [Rev 17:10] is the
    "Little Horn" or "False Prophet" of the (4th) Great Tribulation
    Kingdom. This is the Seventh "King" that arises after the
    "testimony" of the Two Witnesses was "finished"
    (after the Great Commission), when Satan is "loosened"
    from the Bottomless Pit and given spiritual "dominion" over
    the "Wise Virgins" during the "1st Woe".


    It's the Seventh King that led the "Ten Virgins" out of the
    (3rd) Christian Kingdom, as we "went forth" into the Fourth
    Kingdom. It's the Seventh King that "overcomes" and then
    "kills" the Saints during the Reign of the First Revelation "Beast".


    However, the Seventh King only "continues a short space"
    [Rev 17:10]. The Seventh King suffers an apparently fatal wound
    at the END of the "1st Woe". But later he's resurrected as the
    EIGHTH "King"... during the "2nd Woe", the Second Beast.


    Rev 17:11
    And the Beast that was, and is not, even he is THE EIGHTH,
    and is OF THE SEVEN, and [the Eighth Head/King] goeth
    into Perdition.


    The EIGHTH King of the Revelations Beast is "of the seven"
    because that King is the same "False Prophet" (the 7th King)
    after he has been 'resurrected' from his near fatal "wound",
    suffered at the end of the "1st Woe". The Eighth King is
    the same False Prophet ruling over the "image" of the
    First Revelations Beast. This shows the Fourth Kingdom
    during the 6th Trumpet (the "2nd Woe").


    It is this Eighth King that made everyone (in the 4th Kingdom)
    worship the "image" of the First Beast. It was this Eighth King
    that caused everyone (in the 4th Beast) to take the "Mark of
    the Beast". It was this Eighth King that was cast alive into the
    "Burning Flame" or "Lake-of-Fire" at the end of the 4th Kingdom
    - as the Eighth King "goeth into Perdition".


    The "Mystery of Babylon" is a New Testament Commentary
    on Daniel's Four Kingdoms... from the standpoint of the Apostle
    John, living before the Great Commission was finished - and
    before Satan was "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit and given
    "dominion" to rule (through his chief emissary the Anti-Christ)
    during the Great Tribulation Kingdom.


    .
     
  20. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    The fate of Satan, the beast (spirit of antichrist / mystery of iniquity) and the fallen angels (demons) are all knit together in Scripture. They all come under the same spiritual subjugation at the exact same time. When Satan was banished from the Garden then all evil was. When Satan was banished from heaven, so where they all (1/3 of the angels went with him). When Christ bound Satan’s kingdom through His life, death and resurrection then all were bound. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. Satan has already fell from heaven (John 12:31 & Revelation 12:7-9) and is now present in the Abyss (Revelation 9:1-11& Revelation 20:3). The abyss is a spiritual place of restraint for spirits now. When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

    Just like Satan’s power and influence were curtailed through the life, death and first resurrection of Christ, so too was the beast’s. The fate of the two mirror each other. The reason is, the beast is dependent upon the power of Satan to do his evil. The beast is his envoy or enforcer. At the end Satan will be released from his restraint to empower the beast to subjugate the Church, curtail the Gospel expanse and deceive the nations again.
     
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