What offers the best hope for depression?

Between the bible and science, which offers the best hope for depression?

  • The Bible. Science can take a hike.

    Votes: 3 15.8%
  • Science. It is a better source.

    Votes: 9 47.4%
  • Both. They both essentially say the same thing.

    Votes: 3 15.8%
  • None of the above.

    Votes: 4 21.1%

  • Total voters
    19

The happy Objectivist

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It is estimated that over 3% of the population suffers from depression at any one time. Where can the troubled soul turn for hope? Is the Bible an authority on this subject? Or would we be better off turning to science? Or is it a case where both say the same thing, and thus, we can use both sources to complement each other?

I will mention one caveat regarding psychological science. There is much good research on human psychology, but the field is also littered with pseudoscience. It is a difficult field to study and is one in which many have heavy preconceived biases. These biases often adversely affect those who choose the field of psychology. So, though I choose science, I do not agree with everything in this field that claims to be science.

But behind it all, there really is a science of mental health that can provide real help to the troubled soul.

So, what is my answer? B, science. But I guess you already knew that, huh? ;)
I think the best cure for depression and a lot of other ailments is intermittent fasting. I first learned of it from an article by a doctor. A patient was so depressed that he decided to end his life by laying in bed and not eating. After a few days, he felt much better and decided he wanted to live. He got up and he wasn't depressed anymore.

I wasn't depressed but rather had issues with my digestion and I saw a video on youtube that said if you go to bed hungry then you'll cure half your sicknesses. I tried it and it worked amazingly well. I have also found my mood to be drastically improved. I have also lost 50 lbs. in 5 months.
 
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returntosender

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I think the best cure for depression and a lot of other ailments is intermittent fasting. I first learned of it from an article by a doctor. A patient was so depressed that he decided to end his life by laying in bed and not eating. After a few days, he felt much better and decided he wanted to live. He got up and he wasn't depressed anymore.

I wasn't depressed but rather had issues with my digestion and I saw a video on youtube that said if you go to bed hungry then you'll cure half your sicknesses. I tried it and it worked amazingly well. I have also found my mood to be drastically improved. I have also lost 50 lbs. in 5 months.
Lol, sorry,this seems like a funny post.;). Don't be offended. Just my sense of humor I guess;)
 
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timewerx

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As having been a Christian and human being for a long time now and suffered by occasional depression.

I'd say for me, non-profit oriented scientific studies is the best solution. When I mean non-profit scientific study, everyone involved isn't working for pharmaceuticals nor personal profit. They have no agenda but finding solutions that works best.

I haven't look up depression but I have for divorce and the #1 reason for divorce is often directly or indirectly about infidelity and a very close second and sometimes equally strong reason is about money / finances.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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It is estimated that over 3% of the population suffers from depression at any one time. Where can the troubled soul turn for hope? Is the Bible an authority on this subject? Or would we be better off turning to science? Or is it a case where both say the same thing, and thus, we can use both sources to complement each other?

I will mention one caveat regarding psychological science. There is much good research on human psychology, but the field is also littered with pseudoscience. It is a difficult field to study and is one in which many have heavy preconceived biases. These biases often adversely affect those who choose the field of psychology. So, though I choose science, I do not agree with everything in this field that claims to be science.

But behind it all, there really is a science of mental health that can provide real help to the troubled soul.

So, what is my answer? B, science. But I guess you already knew that, huh? ;)
Depression seems to have many different causes and identifying the cause is crucial. In my last few years at work (software development) I started becoming depressed, losing interest in and out of work, lacking motivation, finding no joy in life, etc. The doctor gave me antidepressants, but they didn't help.

Then I retired, rather suddenly & unexpectedly (company takeover, pension changes), and my depression lifted immediately. It was weird; for the first 6 months, I walked around with a big grin on my face for no apparent reason. My mood has remained very positive in the 13 years since. I think that after 20-odd years I'd just had enough of that work and didn't realise because I'd always enjoyed it and was good at it.
 
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stevevw

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It is estimated that over 3% of the population suffers from depression at any one time. Where can the troubled soul turn for hope? Is the Bible an authority on this subject? Or would we be better off turning to science? Or is it a case where both say the same thing, and thus, we can use both sources to complement each other?

I will mention one caveat regarding psychological science. There is much good research on human psychology, but the field is also littered with pseudoscience. It is a difficult field to study and is one in which many have heavy preconceived biases. These biases often adversely affect those who choose the field of psychology. So, though I choose science, I do not agree with everything in this field that claims to be science.

But behind it all, there really is a science of mental health that can provide real help to the troubled soul.

So, what is my answer? B, science. But I guess you already knew that, huh? ;)
I think it depends. There is a neurological basis for depression for some its hard wired and medication is needed. But I think the brain is quite plastic and something like cognitive therapy can help change thinking and thus the brain wiring. That being said I think ultimately its not a physical thing but more in the Minds eye so to speak. I think faith is powerful when it comes to offering hope beyond what the world can offer.

I think basically the materialist view reduces us to naturalistic processes which demean people as nothing but meaningless robots. So maybe that is a big factor in why people feel worthless and get depressed.
 
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rockytopva

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If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. - 1 John 1:5

Unfortunately, though, the light and the darkness interact here on planet Earth...Comparing the light and the darkness, the opposite of E/c2 would be z (absolute zero)/ d (darkness)...

Natural z/d - Nothing, empty space.
Mental z/d - Again nothing but empty space.
Spiritual z/d - z (laziness, coldness, hatred) / d (fear, despair, greed, sorrow)

A correct spiritual E/c2 is an important ally to any faith. Which is why I became a Christian, because I found something of spiritual value. But… Because the mind and the heart are 16” apart… One can understand doctrine and still miss it spiritually…

“It is the heart which perceives God and not the reason. That is what faith is: God perceived by the heart, not by the reason.” - Blaise Pascal

When we feel out of the Spirit (E/c2) and into the flesh (z/d) it is time to make some changes…

In the Spirit - Impossible to depression
In the Flesh - Frequently to depression

“Evangelion” (that we call the gospel) is a Greek word, and signifies good, merry, glad and joyful tidings, that makes a man’s heart glad, and makes him sing, dance and leap for joy. - William Tyndale

It was nice to have attended the Indian Valley Church of God this past Sunday night where there was a wonderful Spirit among the pastor and congregation. Now... I am not Church of God or recommending any kind of denomination. But this pastor was right on the money on his thoughts os saved, sanctified, and being filled with the Holy Spirit! Even speaking in tongues in the delivery! Left the place warmed and enlightened.

 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I think basically the materialist view reduces us to naturalistic processes which demean people as nothing but meaningless robots. So maybe that is a big factor in why people feel worthless and get depressed.
If this was the case, we'd expect the statistics to show materialists having a far higher incidence of depression... they don't. This may be partly because your premise is incorrect - materialism doesn't 'demean people as nothing but meaningless robots'.
 
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stevevw

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If this was the case, we'd expect the statistics to show materialists having a far higher incidence of depression... they don't. This may be partly because your premise is incorrect - materialism doesn't 'demean people as nothing but meaningless robots'.
But actually the research does show that mental illness like depression is increasing due to the demands of modern life.

How the Modern Lifestyle Breeds Depression and Distress
Depression increasing across the United States
Astounding increase in antidepressant use by Americans

While at the same time research shows that having religious belief actually reduces mental illness like depression. In fact research shows as Americans perception of their own mental health dropped significantly those with religious belief increased.

Science Says: Religion Is Good For Your Health
“Most studies have shown that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better health outcomes, including greater longevity, coping skills, and health-related quality of life (even during terminal illness) and less anxiety, depression, and suicide.

CAN RELIGION IMPROVE A PERSON’S MENTAL HEALTH?
The amassed research indicates that higher levels of religious belief and practice (known in social science as “religiosity”) is associated with better mental health. In particular, the research suggests that higher levels of religiosity are associated with lower rates of depression, anxiety, substance use disorder, and suicidal behavior. Religiosity is also associated with better physical health and subjective well-being.

Likewise, research indicates that religiosity can enhance recovery from mental illness, aiding in the healing process. For example, one classic research study shows that recovery from severe mental illnesses such as schizophrenia is better in countries with higher levels of religiosity.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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But actually the research does show that mental illness like depression is increasing due to the demands of modern life.

How the Modern Lifestyle Breeds Depression and Distress
Depression increasing across the United States
Astounding increase in antidepressant use by Americans

While at the same time research shows that having religious belief actually reduces mental illness like depression. In fact research shows as Americans perception of their own mental health dropped significantly those with religious belief increased.

Science Says: Religion Is Good For Your Health
“Most studies have shown that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better health outcomes, including greater longevity, coping skills, and health-related quality of life (even during terminal illness) and less anxiety, depression, and suicide.

CAN RELIGION IMPROVE A PERSON’S MENTAL HEALTH?
The amassed research indicates that higher levels of religious belief and practice (known in social science as “religiosity”) is associated with better mental health. In particular, the research suggests that higher levels of religiosity are associated with lower rates of depression, anxiety, substance use disorder, and suicidal behavior. Religiosity is also associated with better physical health and subjective well-being.

Likewise, research indicates that religiosity can enhance recovery from mental illness, aiding in the healing process. For example, one classic research study shows that recovery from severe mental illnesses such as schizophrenia is better in countries with higher levels of religiosity.
Nevertheless, materialists don't have a far higher incidence of depression. The data indicate that religious belief & practice have beneficial effects (which explains their persistence), which is not the same as materialism having unfavourable effects, and especially not due to your strawman attribution.
 
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stevevw

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Nevertheless, materialists don't have a far higher incidence of depression. The data indicate that religious belief & practice have beneficial effects (which explains their persistence), which is not the same as materialism having unfavorable effects, and especially not due to your strawman attribution.
I guess its depends on what non theist believe. They won't necessarily believe in materialism because they are materialists but I think the majority will as it sort of goes together. We all have a metaphysical belief about the world so the void of belief has to be filled with something. It seems to follow that of you support the idea that fundamental reality is material then you sure ain't going to believe that its immaterial and spiritually based. This would undermine your own position.

If the studies show that being associated with religion and spirituality means less depression and being associated with non-religion and spirituality means increased depression then how is this a strawman.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I guess its depends on what non theist believe. They won't necessarily believe in materialism because they are materialists but I think the majority will as it sort of goes together. We all have a metaphysical belief about the world so the void of belief has to be filled with something. It seems to follow that of you support the idea that fundamental reality is material then you sure ain't going to believe that its immaterial and spiritually based. This would undermine your own position.
It doesn't undermine it in the least. The idea that there's a 'void of belief' if you don't believe in gods (or the supernatural) is naive - atheists have no more of a 'void of belief' than you do because you don't believe in gremlins, witchcraft, Santa Claus, or the tooth fairy (I'm assuming you don't believe in such things, but if you do, substitute some other whimsical fiction).

If the studies show that being associated with religion and spirituality means less depression and being associated with non-religion and spirituality means increased depression then how is this a strawman.
The strawman is, as I said in #29, suggesting that, "the materialist view ... demean(s) people as nothing but meaningless robots".
 
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stevevw

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It doesn't undermine it in the least. The idea that there's a 'void of belief' if you don't believe in gods (or the supernatural) is naive - atheists have no more of a 'void of belief' than you do because you don't believe in gremlins, witchcraft, Santa Claus, or the tooth fairy (I'm assuming you don't believe in such things, but if you do, substitute some other whimsical fiction).
Its not naïve as this is supported by science. Belief is a natural human state of mind. We have to indoctrinate belief out of us rather than it being indoctrinated into us. Its the other way around as commonly assumed. So as it is natural there is a belief void that needs to be filled with some sort of belief whether that's Christian belief, belief in fairies, angles, witchcraft, aliens, mother nature, new age mysticism, humanism or the power of tech and scientific materialism.

There are basic common beliefs about something beyond human ability that has an influence in the world. In fact scientific and naturalistic ideas are harder for our minds to conceive that beliefs in spiritual ideas. We have to work hard at getting belief out of us if we can even do that at all. That's why I say that even scientific materialism is inherently philosophical and involves metaphysical beliefs about the world being material or immaterial. We cannot take the subject or scientists out of the equation.

Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and that’s not a joke
Cognitive scientists are becoming increasingly aware that a metaphysical outlook may be so deeply ingrained in human thought processes that it cannot be expunged. Evidence from several disciplines indicates that what you actually believe is not a decision you make for yourself. Your fundamental beliefs are decided by much deeper levels of consciousness, and some may well be more or less set in stone.

We contend that factors that influence individuals’ belief in counterintuitive natural phenomena are also implicated in their belief in counterintuitive supernatural phenomena, and vice versa; these include individuals’ representational capacities, qualities of the context, qualities of informants, and the intellectual and emotional appeal of the ideas. Thus, perhaps counter to people’s intuitions, there are more similarities than differences in the development of ideas about the natural and the supernatural.
http://journals.sagepub.com.ezproxy.usq.edu.au/doi/full/10.1177/1745691613518078
The strawman is, as I said in #29, suggesting that, "the materialist view ... demean(s) people as nothing but meaningless robots".
I don't think you have supported your claim there is no link between belief and mental health. The simple fact that organized religious belief creates supportive and hopeful environments which address the main reasons for depression, such as loneliness, and no hope shows there must be benefits and the science supported this.

But I was talking more about the materialist model of humans rather than any fallout from those model. Rather the logical implications. It is well acknowledged that the materialist view reduces humans mechanical processes like robots. We are the product of our genes or physical environment and subject to the forces of physics. The subject or observer is taken out of the picture as any influencing factor of the world. We are made to be passive players and thus free will, agency and any teleology is removed from the equation.

How often do we hear the claim there is no free will or agency in evolution and the sciences. That is the way science is designed to remove the subjective element for the measure. Thus reducing and diminishing human minds and consciousness as some secondary and even irrelevant influence in the world. Thus any sense of self, of meaning and control we have is an illusion or even a trick of evolution.


Within the neural and cognitive sciences, the view that humans are no other than meaty robots, our minds but fleshy computers, and free will and consciousness mere illusions, obtain wide currency.
https://owlcation.com/humanities/Is-Materialism-False

Popper observed that, according to physicalistic determinism, mental states are the result of
... a certain physical structure of the holder — perhaps of his brain. Accordingly, we are deceiving ourselves whenever we believe that there are such things as arguments or reasons which make us accept determinism. Purely physical conditions including our physical environment make us say or accept whatever we say or accept. [56]
https://opensciences.org/blogs/open-sciences-blog/232-consciousness-why-materialism-fails

Francis Crick, the discoverer of DNA: claims “You, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules.”

Stephen Hawking “The human race is just a chemical scum on a moderate-sized planet.”

As with evolution in how humans are made out to be passive players in what happens to them. Our behavior is said to be directly or indirectly the result of mechanistic natural processes like genes and NS. Human agency and control is devalued as a cause or evolutionary driver. We also diminish human free will and choice in QM where the observer is treated as a non equation.

Stapp stated in his paper “Attention, Intention, and Will in Quantum Physics,”
It has become now widely appreciated that assimilation by the general public of this ‘scientific’ view, according to which each human is basically a mechanical robot, is likely to have a significant and corrosive impact on the moral fabric of society.” He warned of the “growing tendency of people to exonerate themselves by arguing that it is not ‘I’ who is at fault, but some mechanical process within: ‘my genes made me do it’; or ‘my high blood-sugar content made me do it.’”[51][52] , Stapp shows how hard-core physicalism lets us off the hook by assuming that the world unfolds on its own according to the alleged meaningless laws of nature. We are not active participants in such a process, but are passive observers at best and victims at worst.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Its not naïve as this is supported by science. Belief is a natural human state of mind. We have to indoctrinate belief out of us rather than it being indoctrinated into us. Its the other way around as commonly assumed. So as it is natural there is a belief void that needs to be filled with some sort of belief whether that's Christian belief, belief in fairies, angles, witchcraft, aliens, mother nature, new age mysticism, humanism or the power of tech and scientific materialism.
I think we've been over this before. It's true that babies and young children appear to have a predisposition to believe in non-biological sentient agency - invisible friends, sentient cuddly toys, etc. (I suspect it's early exploration of theory of mind, a preparation or practice for later social interaction). As they develop and encounter more social interaction, these early projections fade, but many (most?) cultures replace them with stories, rituals, and traditions involving superstitious and/or supernatural events and entities.

Chief among these are religious ideas. In religious cultures, it is not surprising that the majority growing up in those cultures adopt those beliefs, but not all do. In non-religious societies, a relic superstition and/or sense of persistence beyond death may be present - again, not surprising given our tendency to interpret the world in terms of agency and the difficulty we have imagining and accepting death as permanent termination.

But none of this means that when you stop believing in some superstitious or supernatural idea that a void is left to be filled. The brain, particularly a developing brain, is a plastic, dynamically reconfiguring learning system - it is not a static peg board where removing a peg leaves a permanent hole. Traumatic loss can leave mental 'scars' that never completely heal, but for the atheists I know personally, most of whom grew up in a Christian environment, it was just another belief that they grew out of, or which never made a personal impression. None of them has any supernatural beliefs. If there was a 'hole' they filled it with everyday interests and activities.

There are basic common beliefs about something beyond human ability that has an influence in the world. In fact scientific and naturalistic ideas are harder for our minds to conceive that beliefs in spiritual ideas. We have to work hard at getting belief out of us if we can even do that at all.
People do tend to use superstitious concepts like luck or fate, and use attributed agency to express how they feel about the world - who can forget Basil Fawlty in Fawlty Towers swearing at his car and beating it with a tree branch when it 'refused to start' (an agent-centric phrase)? But that doesn't mean they believe in luck, fate, coincidence, or karma as supernatural phenomena (though a few do) or that they believe that cars, TVs, or washing machines have sentient agency.

That's why I say that even scientific materialism is inherently philosophical and involves metaphysical beliefs about the world being material or immaterial. We cannot take the subject or scientists out of the equation.
Scientific materialism is a philosophical worldview, but being a scientist doesn't make you a philosopher of science.

Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and that’s not a joke
Cognitive scientists are becoming increasingly aware that a metaphysical outlook may be so deeply ingrained in human thought processes that it cannot be expunged. Evidence from several disciplines indicates that what you actually believe is not a decision you make for yourself. Your fundamental beliefs are decided by much deeper levels of consciousness, and some may well be more or less set in stone.
A 'metaphysical outlook' does not imply a belief in a god or gods. A quote from that paper, "In the United States, 38% of people who identified themselves as atheist or agnostic went on to claim to believe in a God or a Higher Power" suggests (charitably) confusion about the meaning of 'atheist' or 'agnostic'.

I don't think you have supported your claim there is no link between belief and mental health.
That's probably because I made no such claim. It's another straw man - I wish you'd stop doing it, but I understand that you can't seem to help it.

It is well acknowledged that the materialist view reduces humans mechanical processes like robots. We are the product of our genes or physical environment and subject to the forces of physics.
Yes.

The subject or observer is taken out of the picture as any influencing factor of the world. We are made to be passive players and thus free will, agency and any teleology is removed from the equation.
No. Who thinks a subject or observer has no influence in/on the world? How could you study a subject if it had no influence on the world? Have you ever heard of the 'Observer effect'? A major part of scientific methodology is aimed at minimising the undesirable influences of the observer on the process.

Free will is semantically contentious - but compatibilist free will is compatible with materialism, physicalism, or determinism (the clue is in the name).

Teleology is a human concept that we apply to goal-oriented behaviour. Our overly agent-centric worldview often leads us to misinterpret physical processes as goal-oriented and so teleological (e.g. evolution).

The rest is misrepresentations, misinterpretations, and non-sequiturs that have previously been addressed.
 
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GodsGrace101

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It is estimated that over 3% of the population suffers from depression at any one time. Where can the troubled soul turn for hope? Is the Bible an authority on this subject? Or would we be better off turning to science? Or is it a case where both say the same thing, and thus, we can use both sources to complement each other?

I will mention one caveat regarding psychological science. There is much good research on human psychology, but the field is also littered with pseudoscience. It is a difficult field to study and is one in which many have heavy preconceived biases. These biases often adversely affect those who choose the field of psychology. So, though I choose science, I do not agree with everything in this field that claims to be science.

But behind it all, there really is a science of mental health that can provide real help to the troubled soul.

So, what is my answer? B, science. But I guess you already knew that, huh? ;)
Medication is my answer.
But if a person knows God he'll be less likely to fall into a depression, and may need less medication because he understands his condition.
 
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Diamond7

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Was Jeffrey Dahmer made to turn out the way he turned out for God's purposes?
Dahmer was NOT following God's plan and purpose for Him. God gives us all that choice. He writes the book of our life at or before conception. He gives us all gifts, talents, and abilities to use to bring praise, honor, and glory to God. The freedom to choose sets us apart from the Animals.
 
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Bob Crowley

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From personal experience, I'd have to say there's a bit of both, although I wouldn't include the "Bible" as some sort of lucky charm.

I'd be more inclined to refer to science and Christian faith. Faith gives hope, and it means we have something to live for.

On the other hand, science certainly has it's role to play. I took Prozac for some years for "reactive" depression, and it worked. I still get frustrated at times, but I don't get depressed like I used to.

But another factor was that the psycharist who prescribed the Prozac is a practising Catholic Christian, and he believes very much in psychotherapy, which is talking through issues. He thought too many psychiatrists just wanted to throw prescriptions at you. Incidentally he's retired now.

One of the problems is that if someone has been depressed for a long time, their brain chemistry changes and this makes it difficult to "snap out of it". The way the psychiatrist put it was that Prozac very slowly changes the brain chemistry back towards what it should be.

Prozac doesn't work for everybody, but there are other medications. There are different kinds of depression as well, and some are much more severe than others.

I think science has the strongest claim in this area, but I also believe Christian faith helps, along with psychotherapy.

No doubt God could perform a miracle, but He seems to have delegated a lot of these jobs to the human race. As CS Lewis put it, God could fix all these things in the "blink of an eye" but he seems to delegate as much as He can. How else are we going to learn anything?
 
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