What offers the best hope for depression?

[doubtingmerle]

It is estimated that over 3% of the population suffers from depression at any one time. Where can the troubled soul turn for hope? Is the Bible an authority on this subject? Or would we be better off turning to science? Or is it a case where both say the same thing, and thus, we can use both sources to complement each other?

I will mention one caveat regarding psychological science. There is much good research on human psychology, but the field is also littered with pseudoscience. It is a difficult field to study and is one in which many have heavy preconceived biases. These biases often adversely affect those who choose the field of psychology. So, though I choose science, I do not agree with everything in this field that claims to be science.

But behind it all, there really is a science of mental health that can provide real help to the troubled soul.

So, what is my answer? B, science. But I guess you already knew that, huh?

 

[Tinker Grey]

A number of years ago I was using testosterone cream. One of the side effects was depression. Well, it happened to me. It felt like an elephant sitting on my chest. I immediately stopped using it. My doctors got me an antidepressant. I might have been on it for, I want to say, 18 months. (This was a decade ago).

I don't know if the antidepressants worked or whether it was just time. But, the problem was physical and the solution was physical.

For chronic depression, for a non-neurotypical brain, meditation and other spiritual practice might be effective coping mechanisms.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

I didn't answer your poll because none of the answers really convey it properly, but I would say "it depends." Both, but not because they say the same thing. I'm an atheist. I don't believe Jesus, if he existed as presented in the Bible, was in any way God or some supernatural being. I also believe that there are some people in this world who actually do need Jesus. People who need something bigger than themselves to live by because they are not capable of coping "on their own."

 

[doubtingmerle]

A number of years ago I was using testosterone cream. One of the side effects was depression. Well, it happened to me. It felt like an elephant sitting on my chest. I immediately stopped using it. My doctors got me an antidepressant. I might have been on it for, I want to say, 18 months. (This was a decade ago).

I don't know if the antidepressants worked or whether it was just time. But, the problem was physical and the solution was physical.

For chronic depression, for a non-neurotypical brain, meditation and other spiritual practice might be effective coping mechanisms.

Depression can have both physical and mental causes. The really bad cases have physical problems that trouble the mind, and mental issues that stress the physical. And that can lead to a downward spiral where physical issues trouble the mind, which trouble the physical, which trouble the mind, etc. And like the chicken in the egg, its' sometimes hard to say which came first.

I'm glad you found help. Sadly, many find an ancient book to be the only source of help, and this can make if hard to deal with the problem.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I didn't answer your poll because none of the answers really convey it properly, but I would say "it depends." Both, but not because they say the same thing. I'm an atheist. I don't believe Jesus, if he existed as presented in the Bible, was in any way God or some supernatural being. I also believe that there are some people in this world who actually do need Jesus. People who need something bigger than themselves to live by because they are not capable of coping "on their own."

I understand the desire of many to rely on both. The problem I have with using the scriptures as a psychology resource is that that Bible is often at odds with science. See, for instance, The Bible and Self-Esteem - The Mind Set Free

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

I understand the desire of many to rely on both. The problem I have with using the scriptures as a psychology resource is that that Bible is often at odds with science. See, for instance, The Bible and Self-Esteem - The Mind Set Free

Oh, for sure.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Sometimes mere sadness is called depression. I'm going to assume for the purposes of this discussion that is not what the OP is referring to. I had never heard of any other use of the term while I was growing up, and have had relatively little 1st hand experience with the more severe phenomenon.

Among the many causes of and reliefs from depression, is the worldview or mindset of the person. Not being privy to that scene, I can't say much about the more severe causes in one's upbringing that bring about a habit of depressed thinking, or the see-saw of temporary excessive delights with the depths of depression, but it seems to me there is one relief that applies to all of it, though perhaps not to totally relieve it during this life.* Let's just say, this will lighten the load of the person who learns to think the way I will attempt to describe below.

According to what I have read, most depression is caused by or related to one's self-image, and the usual path into relieving depression is by changing one's self-image. The usual mode is by doing what is considered "improving" one's self-image. Unfortunately, there are many who attempt to instill a false self-image, to counteract the poor self-image. I have been accused of both, in this: We are creatures made by God for his purposes. Our worth is not ours to assess; it has become a joy for many of us to know that we are what God has in mind, and not what even we ourselves think of us, and certainly not what others have to say about us. It is a joy, an ongoing, deep down inside joy, that sees that our creator is pleased with what he is going to do with us. It is a glory, to put it perhaps a little sappily, that delights in HIM and his success, in which we are used in whatever way HE sees fit. The focus on ourselves fades away.

This life is about God, not about us. I think we are not even complete beings until we see him as he is.

*There are many depressed believers who may well be depressed their whole lives. I am not one of those who preach that God will get them out of it, or even that it is dependent on their faithfulness/obedience whether they get out of it or not. God uses all types of people and takes everyone through whatever he does, purposing to bring about his own ends —not ours (as such). One example is Alexander Cruden, who apparently went mad at one point, over a case of unrequited love, and either checked himself into an asylum or was committed, if I remember right. Anyhow, he apparently found it therapeutic to assemble his "Cruden's Concordance", with the cold logic and the plodding, pedantic, work involved. His concordance is enormously respected and has been maybe my favorite concordance, eminently useful.

 

[doubtingmerle]

According to what I have read, most depression is caused by or related to one's self-image, and the usual path into relieving depression is by changing one's self-image.

I agree that a low self-image is often a key cause of depression. But the causes of depression can involve many things, including physical issues and overwhelming circumstances.

The usual mode is by doing what is considered "improving" one's self-image. Unfortunately, there are many who attempt to instill a false self-image, to counteract the poor self-image.

What caused the low self-image? I contend that, for many, their problems with self-image come from things like the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity. That doctrine can destroy a healthy self-esteem. See Total Depravity and Self-Esteem .

We are creatures made by God for his purposes. Our worth is not ours to assess; it has become a joy for many of us to know that we are what God has in mind, and not what even we ourselves think of us, and certainly not what others have to say about us.

I see myself as a creature that is alive and is able to make my own worth in life. I see that a great reason to feel good about myself.

But if you are made by someone else for his purposes, how is that better than being a slave?

Slaves were deliberately bred to make more slaves. How does that give hope to the child that is born because he was made for somebody else's purposes?

Luke 17:10 says we are to say, "We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.” Do you consider that uplifting?

It is a glory, to put it perhaps a little sappily, that delights in HIM and his success, in which we are used in whatever way HE sees fit. The focus on ourselves fades away.

This life is about God, not about us. I think we are not even complete beings until we see him as he is.

I'll let Bruce Gerencser respond to this, because he does it so well:

Imagine every good thing ever done by you being credited to another person. I suspect most of us would not be happy about other people getting credit for our good works. We did the work, so we should receive the credit. But for Evangelicals, they do all the work and God gets all the credit. Why? Because they are worthless, hopeless, helpless sinners whom Jesus, through his blood and mighty power, saved from their sins. After being graciously saved by God, Evangelicals are expected, out of a heart of gratitude, to spend the rest of their lives giving God credit for everything they do. And I mean EVERYTHING!
-- Humans Are But a Speck of Worthless Dirt in the Eyes of God
​

I don't see how we can have a healthy self-esteem that way.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What caused the low self-image? I contend that, for many, their problems with self-image come from things like the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity. That doctrine can destroy a healthy self-esteem. See Total Depravity and Self-Esteem .

As a Christian, can you support both the doctrine of Total Depravity, and an approach to life that seeks to build your self-esteem? Or must you choose one or the other?

Here is an example of what I read about Total Depravity from a Christian site:

The doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18). (Source)
Does sin corrupt every part of your mind and emotions? Does it penetrate to the very core of your being? Are you a bad tree that bears bad fruit? If so, how can you have a meaningful positive self-esteem?

I see myself as a creature that is alive and is able to make my own worth in life. I see that a great reason to feel good about myself.

But if you are made by someone else for his purposes, how is that better than being a slave?

I see myself as a creature that is alive and is able to make my own worth in life. I see that a great reason to feel good about myself.

But if you are made by someone else for his purposes, how is that better than being a slave?

Slaves were deliberately bred to make more slaves. How does that give hope to the child that is born because he was made for somebody else's purposes?

Luke 17:10 says we are to say, "We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.” Do you consider that uplifting?

I will try to parallel this with another phenomenon —the notion that my salvation depends on myself, and not on God. When I thought the quality of my confession of faith was obviously, as indicated by the quality of my obedience, lacking sincerity in some way, I sincerely doubted my salvation. So it is with this outlook on life, of being made by God for his purposes: It takes me out of the equation of self-esteem —I am altogether at his mercy. And that is a GREAT thing. He will do all that is in his mind to accomplish, and he even lets me watch!

But I must object to your characterization. God is not just "someone else". He is not, as Gerencser puts it below, just "another person". But his construction is wrong in other ways.

I'll let Bruce Gerencser respond to this, because he does it so well:

Imagine every good thing ever done by you being credited to another person. I suspect most of us would not be happy about other people getting credit for our good works. We did the work, so we should receive the credit. But for Evangelicals, they do all the work and God gets all the credit. Why? Because they are worthless, hopeless, helpless sinners whom Jesus, through his blood and mighty power, saved from their sins. After being graciously saved by God, Evangelicals are expected, out of a heart of gratitude, to spend the rest of their lives giving God credit for everything they do. And I mean EVERYTHING!
-- Humans Are But a Speck of Worthless Dirt in the Eyes of God

You can well believe that I sympathize with the notion of "someone else" getting the credit for my work. For one example (and there are plenty more), I have a real problem with the Government taking my money that I worked for and giving it to someone I have not chosen to help out.

But, as I said above, God is not just "another person".

Gerencser could be taken to contradict himself here: He says that Evangelicals do all the work and God gets all the credit.* Then, he implies that we credit God with the work. Well, the latter is true. We do, as we in and of ourselves can do nothing, apart from Christ. There's no use in saying that God does not do the work. It is as false as the temporal is long.

I don't see how we can have a healthy self-esteem that way.

Once I came to see that this life is about Christ, and not about me, I see his inclusion of me as secondary to the pleasure of seeing him happy about his creation. My self-esteem is built on him, and not on myself.

*(I happen to be of the notion that in Heaven we will work so hard that if God is not our very sustenance we would vaporize into oblivion, yet there I expect it to be pure joy to work so, and to hear his pleasure in us, and this activity being what we are made for will be our rest. I fully expect to hear often, "Well done, good and faithful servant".)

 

[returntosender]

God and medicine.

 

[doubtingmerle]

So it is with this outlook on life, of being made by God for his purposes: It takes me out of the equation of self-esteem —I am altogether at his mercy. And that is a GREAT thing. He will do all that is in his mind to accomplish, and he even lets me watch!

And, you would say, that, for some people, God chose to make them mass murders, yes?

Was Jeffrey Dahmer made to turn out the way he turned out for God's purposes? And was that a GREAT thing? Did God through Dahmer do all that was in God's mind to accomplish? And did he even let Dahmer watch himself do those great things God selected for him to do? What kind of a God would do that?

Gerencser could be taken to contradict himself here: He says that Evangelicals do all the work and God gets all the credit.* Then, he implies that we credit God with the work. Well, the latter is true. We do, as we in and of ourselves can do nothing, apart from Christ. There's no use in saying that God does not do the work. It is as false as the temporal is long.

No contradiction. Both statements say the same thing. The Evangelical works, and God gets the credit.

You try to downplay the effort of the Christian. Rather, just as Gerencser states it, the Christian does things and God get all the credit. One becomes simply a machine programmed by God to do whatever God chooses. And God gets all the credit.

I'm sorry, but I find such views devastating to one's self-esteem.

 

[doubtingmerle]

God and medicine.

Do God and science give the same advice, or contradicting advice, to the depressed soul?

 

[Tigger45]

I think both can be beneficial for depression but I didn’t vote for that choice feeling I wasn’t completely happy with the wording of it.

 

[rturner76]

I have found that when treating my own chronic severe depression a mix of both has been the most effective. The pills can help but they don't cure depression. They CAN make it so your mind is more available or able to work on your spiritual condition.

Honestly, I thin before there was a profession of psychotherapy, what we had was confession. In confession, you spoke about the behaviors you wanted to change and you would get counseling. Now we get our counseling through the mental health system but without any spiritual foundation, people in the mental health system only can still feel a sense of emptiness. For many, that emptiness of depression is salved by their relationship with their higher power.

I think it's both working together that gets the best results.

 

[Mark Quayle]

And, you would say, that, for some people, God chose to make them mass murders, yes?

Was Jeffrey Dahmer made to turn out the way he turned out for God's purposes? And was that a GREAT thing? Did God through Dahmer do all that was in God's mind to accomplish? And did he even let Dahmer watch himself do those great things God selected for him to do? What kind of a God would do that?

No. There is a huge difference between God (1) planning for someone to become a mass murderer, and even causing it to come to pass through 'secondary' causes, and God (2) "making someone a mass murderer". First and foremost of those 'secondary' causes is that person's own will —the ability to choose according to their own inclinations.

No contradiction. Both statements say the same thing. The Evangelical works, and God gets the credit.

You try to downplay the effort of the Christian. Rather, just as Gerencser states it, the Christian does things and God get all the credit. One becomes simply a machine programmed by God to do whatever God chooses. And God gets all the credit.

Seems a point-of-view thing, then. Since you (and Gerencser) don't see God, and you do see Christians straining and suffering, you assume they are doing the work, and not God.

I find it a bit odd that you would allude to the 'programmed', notion. If indeed they are programmed, what difference does it make about the work? Does a computer get the credit, or does his programmer? (But that whole construction/narrative is off base. We all freely choose according to our inclinations.)

I'm sorry, but I find such views devastating to one's self-esteem.

Yes, I imagine it would seem that way from your POV. I myself find it immensely satisfying and freeing, that I can not accomplish what it takes for security and lasting happiness, and so I am entirely dependent on the omnipotent creator and sustainer of all that exists for my well-being. I am in his hands, not my weak, foolish, immature, ignorant hands.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It is estimated that over 3% of the population suffers from depression at any one time. Where can the troubled soul turn for hope? Is the Bible an authority on this subject? Or would we be better off turning to science? Or is it a case where both say the same thing, and thus, we can use both sources to complement each other?

I will mention one caveat regarding psychological science. There is much good research on human psychology, but the field is also littered with pseudoscience. It is a difficult field to study and is one in which many have heavy preconceived biases. These biases often adversely affect those who choose the field of psychology. So, though I choose science, I do not agree with everything in this field that claims to be science.

But behind it all, there really is a science of mental health that can provide real help to the troubled soul.

So, what is my answer? B, science. But I guess you already knew that, huh?

From my own sole experience, neither science nor the Bible does that much where mental complications are concerned.

... still, the Bible does offer a certain kind of spiritualized 'hope' that may affect some nuances of a person's outlook that Xanax, Lithium, Prozac and other medications --or shock treatments-- can't address or successfully treat.

Depression. It is what it is. Until it isn't anymore.

 

[AV1611VET]

Depression. It is what it is. Until it isn't anymore.

This too shall pass.

As my pastor is fond of pointing out, the Bible says over and over, "And it came to pass."

 

[doubtingmerle]

First and foremost of those 'secondary' causes is that person's own will —the ability to choose according to their own inclinations.

Ah, so if you have the ability to choose not to do what God wants, then it is not true that, "He will do all that is in his mind to accomplish". If God has it in his mind for you to do something, and you say "no", then it won't happen.

Seems a point-of-view thing, then. Since you (and Gerencser) don't see God, and you do see Christians straining and suffering, you assume they are doing the work, and not God.

Whether God exists and should get credit is irrelevant to Gerencser's assertion. If both God and the Christian worked, then both should get credit.

Gerencser's assertion was that Christians work and think God gets all the credit for what they do.

I find it a bit odd that you would allude to the 'programmed', notion. If indeed they are programmed, what difference does it make about the work? Does a computer get the credit, or does his programmer?

Yes, both the computer and the programmer should get credit.

I am the sum total of my physical makeup and all the influences from my environment. This "I" that I admire is the sum total of that, and can do great things (like type this sentence). This "I" should get the credit for what it does.

I myself find it immensely satisfying and freeing, that I can not accomplish what it takes for security and lasting happiness, and so I am entirely dependent on the omnipotent creator and sustainer of all that exists for my well-being.

Sounds like something a child would say. It make no sense to me that a grown man would find that state of entire dependency to be fulfilling.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ah, so if you have the ability to choose not to do what God wants, then it is not true that, "He will do all that is in his mind to accomplish". If God has it in his mind for you to do something, and you say "no", then it won't happen.

Define what you mean by "what God wants". Do you mean what he commands, and how he would like things to be? Or do you mean what he has decreed, or determined to accomplish? If God has it in his mind for me to do something that he will indeed accomplish, I will do it, either by obedience or by disobedience, or totally unwittingly, even. And so will you, and everybody else, including the devil.

Whether God exists and should get credit is irrelevant to Gerencser's assertion. If both God and the Christian worked, then both should get credit.

Gerencser's assertion was that Christians work and think God gets all the credit for what they do.

WHY should both get the credit? But no worries; he will happily say, "Well done, good and faithful servant."

Yes, both the computer and the programmer should get credit.

I am the sum total of my physical makeup and all the influences from my environment. This "I" that I admire is the sum total of that, and can do great things (like type this sentence). This "I" should get the credit for what it does.

Yet you have no control over your own existence, and you may find out, if God is willing to show you, that you have no ability to do anything at all, without his say-so.

Sounds like something a child would say. It make no sense to me that a grown man would find that state of entire dependency to be fulfilling.

I suppose that I had hoped that intellectually you could see the value in it. A child of God is a pretty good way to put it. We are on no equal footing with him.

But oh well. I guess you have to know God yourself to "get it".

 

[returntosender]

From my own sole experience, neither science nor the Bible does that much where mental complications are concerned.

... still, the Bible does offer a certain kind of spiritualized 'hope' that may affect some nuances of a person's outlook that Xanax, Lithium, Prozac and other medications --or shock treatments-- can't address or successfully treat.

Depression. It is what it is. Until it isn't anymore.

COLD!