What Need I of Grace?

[HARK!]

1 John 3:4

Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9

Whosoever is born of YHWH does not commit sin; for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of YHWH.

Matthew 5:20

For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Some say the we no longer have to be obedient to YHWH and his word. That was true from the beginning, even with Adam; but there are consequences for disobedience.

Mt 13:41
The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,

Matthew 7:23

But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who work lawlessness.

Despite what scripture, or even our messiah says, some will say that we have no obligation to keep the law; that our salvation is dependent solely on grace; and that the law was abolished.

Now let's work through this logically:

If sin is transgression of the law; and the law has been abolished; then there is no law.

If there is no law; then there is no sin.

If there is no sin; then what need have I of grace?

 

[GaveMeJoy]

Lol that’s not a poll

 

[Charlie24]

1 John 3:4

Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9

Whosoever is born of YHWH does not commit sin; for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of YHWH.

Matthew 5:20

For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Some say the we no longer have to be obedient to YHWH and his word. That was true from the beginning, even with Adam; but there are consequences for disobedience.

Mt 13:41
The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,

Matthew 7:23

But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who work lawlessness.

Despite what scripture, or even our messiah says, some will say that we have no obligation to keep the law; that our salvation is dependent solely on grace; and that the law was abolished.

Now let's work through this logically:

If sin is transgression of the law; and the law has been abolished; then there is no law.

If there is no law; then there is no sin.

If there is no sin; then what need have I of grace?

Gal. 5:4-5
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."

Christ is the only One who has ever kept the Law. He fulfilled the Law for us, that by faith we can fulfill the Law through Him. There is no other way!

Christ taught the Law in His ministry, but when He died on the cross fulfilling the Law, the Law was nailed to the cross.

Col. 2:14
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"

John tells us how we keep the Law in the New Covenant.

Notice how John condenses all the commandments of Christ into 2 commandments.

1John 3:22-24
"And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."

 

[HARK!]

Lol that’s not a poll

You only have 2 options.

Jn 14:23
Yahsua answered and said to him, "If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and We shall be coming to him and making an abode with him.

Jn 14:24
He who is not loving Me, is not keeping My words. And the word which you are hearing is not Mine, but the Father's Who sends Me.

 

[HARK!]

Gal. 5:4-5
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."

Here is another quote from Paul:

Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Christ is the only One who has ever kept the Law.

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

He fulfilled the Law for us, that by faith we can fulfill the Law through Him. There is no other way!

That means following him. He sets the example in obedience to his Father's law.

1 John 3:9

Whosoever is born of YHWH does not commit sin; for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of YHWH.

Christ taught the Law in His ministry, but when He died on the cross fulfilling the Law, the Law was nailed to the cross.

The penalties of the law were nailed to the pale, not the commands.



(CLV) Mt 5:17
"You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.

Col. 2:14
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"

Right, the ordinances, not the commands.

John tells us how we keep the Law in the New Covenant.

Notice how John condenses all the commandments of Christ into 2 commandments.

1John 3:22-24
"And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."

(CLV) 1Jn 3:22
and whatsoever we may be requesting, we are obtaining from Him, for we are keeping His precepts (plural) and are doing what is pleasing in His sight.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:23
And this is His precept, (singular) that we should be believing in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and may be loving one another according as He gives us a precept.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:24
And he who is keeping His precepts (plural) is remaining in Him, and He in him. And in this we |know that He is remaining in us, by the spirit which He gives us.

Her is another verse from that same chapter:

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

Sin is transgression of the law.

You didn't answer my question. What need I of grace; if the law has been abolished?

 

[Charlie24]

Here is another quote from Paul:

Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.



(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.



That means following him. He sets the example in obedience to his Father's law.

1 John 3:9

Whosoever is born of YHWH does not commit sin; for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of YHWH.



The penalties of the law were nailed to the pale, not the commands.



(CLV) Mt 5:17
"You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.



Right, the ordinances, not the commands.




(CLV) 1Jn 3:22
and whatsoever we may be requesting, we are obtaining from Him, for we are keeping His precepts (plural) and are doing what is pleasing in His sight.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:23
And this is His precept, (singular) that we should be believing in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and may be loving one another according as He gives us a precept.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:24
And he who is keeping His precepts (plural) is remaining in Him, and He in him. And in this we |know that He is remaining in us, by the spirit which He gives us.

Her is another verse from that same chapter:

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

Sin is transgression of the law.

You didn't answer my question. What need I of grace; if the law has been abolished?

He who lives by the law will be judged by the law.

You will keep falling short in the law until you are judged.

And since the law is God's standard of righteousness, well, it's a losing deal.

But if that's what you want, so be it!

 

[HARK!]

He who lives by the law will be judged by the law.

(CLV) Ro 2:12
for whoever sinned without law, without law also shall perish, and whoever sinned in law, through law will be judged.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

 

[HARK!]

Some seem to believe that YHWH didn't extend grace before Yahshua was executed.

(CLV) Gn 6:8
Yet Noah, he found grace in the eyes of Yahweh.

(CLV) Ex 33:12
Moses said to Yahweh: See! You are saying to me: Bring up this people, but You have not let me know whom You shall send with me. Yet You have said: I know you by name, and moreover you have found grace in My eyes.

(CLV) Ex 33:16
Whereby shall it be known, indeed, that I find grace in Your eyes, I and Your people? Is it not by Your going with us that we may be distinguished, I and Your people, from all the peoples who are on the surface of the ground?

(CLV) Pr 3:34
If as to mockers, He Himself mocks, So as to the humble, He gives grace.

(CLV) Jer 31:2
Thus says Yahweh: The people, survivors of the sword, found grace in the wilderness; When Israel journeyed to find his respite.

 

[Cribstyl]

1 John 3:4

Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9

Whosoever is born of YHWH does not commit sin; for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of YHWH.

Matthew 5:20

For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Some say the we no longer have to be obedient to YHWH and his word. That was true from the beginning, even with Adam; but there are consequences for disobedience.

Mt 13:41
The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,

Matthew 7:23

But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who work lawlessness.

Despite what scripture, or even our messiah says, some will say that we have no obligation to keep the law; that our salvation is dependent solely on grace; and that the law was abolished.

Now let's work through this logically:

If sin is transgression of the law; and the law has been abolished; then there is no law.

If there is no law; then there is no sin.

If there is no sin; then what need have I of grace?

It's not hard to debunk your theological errors. First you established that sin is transgression of the law. You then hold that statement as a premise of; if there is no law, there is no sin or no sin no law.

If scripture say and prove that; sin was in the world before the law your premise is debunked.
Where the doctrine of sin is taught by Paul, he references, Adam as the man who first sinned. He explained until the law came, sin's penalty of death reigned down to Moses .

Rom 5:12 ¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

"Sin was not imputed" means that no one was listing specific acts of sin or keeping count when there was no law. (from Adam to Moses)
When we read why God sent the flood, we see no law listed,but we see the sin listed.

 

[solid_core]

The Law of Moses was given to ancient Israel only till Christ came.

 

[HARK!]

It's not hard to debunk your theological errors.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,

LOL!

(CLV) Ro 4:15
for the law is producing indignation. Now where not law is, neither is there transgression

READ YOUR BIBLE!

 

[HARK!]

The Law of Moses was given to ancient Israel only till Christ came.

(CLV) Lk 16:16
"The law and the prophets are unto John; thenceforth, the evangel of the kingdom of God is being brought, and everyone is violently forcing into it, and the violent are snatching it.

Johns father was of the rightful priesthood, therefore John too. Why was Zechariah hiding John? Why did Herod kill Zechariah for not revealing John's whereabouts to him? I suspect that John was practicing as High Priest in the wilderness; and that is why people flocked to the wilderness, in droves, to see him. He too was violently snatched; but not before he immersed Yahshua in a Mikvah ritual. John announced our anointed, everlasting, High Priest, Yahshua.

Here is another parallel verse:


(CLV) Ac 3:24
Now all the prophets also, from Samuel, and consecutively, whoever speak, also announce these days.

Well let us see what some of the prophets have to announce!

(CLV) Isa 2:2
And it will come to pass in the latter days, The Mount of the House of YHWH shall be established on the summit of the mountains, And it shall be lifted up above the hills, And all the nations will stream unto it.

(CLV) Isa 2:3
Many peoples will come and say: Come, and let us ascend to the Mount of YHWH, To the house of the Elohim of Jacob; And He shall direct us out of His ways, So that we may indeed walk in His paths. For from Zion shall go forth the Torah, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.

Wow! That doesn't sound like the Torah was abolished!

(CLV) Mic 4:1
And it will come to pass in the latter days, The Mount of the House of YHWH shall be established ion the summit of the mountains, And it shall be lifted up above the hills. And all the peoples will stream unto it.

(CLV) Mic 4:2
Many nations will come and say: Come, and let us ascend to the Mount of Yahweh, And to the house of the Elohim of Jacob, And He shall direct us out of His ways, So that we may indeed walk in His paths. For from Zion shall go forth the Torah, And the word of YHWH from Jerusalem.

Cool! A second witness!

Messiah kept the Torah; and so did his disciples.

 

[public hermit]

What this thread needs are some proof texts.

 

[Cribstyl]

LOL!

(CLV) Ro 4:15
for the law is producing indignation. Now where not law is, neither is there transgression

READ YOUR BIBLE!

What Paul is teaching here in this context went over your head Hark. Notice that grammatically Rom 4:13,14 and 15 is 1 sentence with commas. Technically "Because" or "For" is part of the previous sentence

Rom 4:13 - For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.
Rom 4:15- For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 - That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

In this context Rom 14:13-15 is saying: (13).....God's promise to Abraham, (In thy seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed) would not come by the law, it would come through faith, (14) because if it would come through the law, then faith would be conditioned on the law, and that would make faith a false promise, because the law brings only death, but if the law don't apply there is nothing to break. (16)That's why it only depends on the righteousness of faith. That why God's promise is guaranteed to all, and not only those who keep the law, but also to those who have faith.

 

[HARK!]

(13)........God's promise to Abraham, (In thy seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed) would not come by the law, it would come through faith,

No. You changed what the scripture says to promote lawlessness.

Rom 4:13 - For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

What is righteousness?

It's obedience to YHWH's law.

righteous adjective
righ·teous | \ ˈrī-chəs
Definition of righteous
1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS


You should review the opening statements of Paul's letter to the Romans:

Romans Chapter 1

 

[Cribstyl]

Double bubble

 

[Cribstyl]

No. You changed what the scripture says to promote lawlessness.

Rom 4:13 - For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

What is righteousness?

It's obedience to YHWH's law.

righteous adjective
righ·teous | \ ˈrī-chəs
Definition of righteous
1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS


You should review the opening statements of Paul's letter to the Romans:

Romans Chapter 1

Your definition of righteousness is a big problem. What bible dictionary are you using?
Righteousness is simply doing right, doing the right thing or doing whatever God requires.
The scriptures tells us that because Abraham believed God, God counted his faith as righteousness. (Gen 15:6 )

Yes Hark, God did establish the law as righteousness for the Children of Israel
Deu 6:25And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

But you reject the righteousness of the New Covenant.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

What part of righteousness without the law don't you understand?

 

[HARK!]

The scriptures tells is that because Abraham believed God, God counted his faith as righteousness. (Gen 15:6 )

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

But you reject the righteousness of the New Covenant.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

What part of righteousness without the law don't you understand?

Do you understand that this verse speaks of the righteousness of YHWH himself? What I don't understand is how you can equate the righteousness of Abraham, with the righteousness of YHWH.

Did you read to the end of the chapter? Or did you just run to a lawyer, who speaks in complicated terms; so that you could, cherry pick one verse, to ease your conscience, for dismissing YHWH's law?

Romans 3:31 Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law."

There's the final word on this chapter.

Did you even understand this chapter?

 

[Cribstyl]

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

I don't expect you to explain how the law came 430yrs after the promise (in thy seed all nations shall be blessed)
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Do you understand that this verse speaks of the righteousness of YHWH himself? What I don't understand is how you can equate the righteousness of Abraham, with the righteousness of YHWH.

Did you read to the end of the chapter? Or did you just run to a lawyer, who speaks in complicated terms; so that you could, cherry pick one verse, to ease your conscience, for dismissing YHWH's law?

Romans 3:31 Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law."

There's the final word on this chapter.

Did you even understand this chapter?

Actually, I don't have a clue what the heavens you're talking about. Do you?

 

[HARK!]

I don't expect you to explain how the law came 430yrs after the promise (in thy seed all nations shall be blessed)
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

I won't ask you to explain how Abraham kept YHWH's charge, YHWH's instructions, YHWH's statutes and YHWH's laws, 430 years before they were given. You might have to ask Paul on that one.