What must I do to be saved?

[BNR32FAN]

"Remove" and "take away" maybe, but no mention of "cutting" as you originally said.

According 1st century Jewish agricultural laws a vine dresser was only allowed to remove dead branches, not living branches from a vine. Mishnah Sheviitt 2.3: "Trees may be pruned [of dry branches], thinned, and dry twigs may be clipped until Rosh HaShanah" - https://www.emishnah.com/PDFs/Shevi'it02.pdf

So in John 15 the branch is dead and, although it appears to be connected to the vine, it is separate - sap is not flowing through it to produce fruit.

1 John 3:6 "No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

When Jesus spoke this parable he was just about to be betrayed by Judas, so that should be forefront of our understanding of this analogy. We know that Judas was unregenerate (John 6:70) even though he was part of Jesus inner circle and therefore apparently "in the vine". Jesus reiterated this just a few verses earlier (13:10-11).

In his epistle, John goes on to describes people who were part "of us" but later found out to be imposters and says they were never really part of us in the first place. (1 John 2:19)

See the problem here is you can’t accept what Jesus actually said. Jesus says these branches are in Him and you say they’re not really in Him, even tho I pointed out a parable by Jesus that shows that not everyone immediately bears fruit so God is patient with them for a while. But if that person doesn’t begin to bear fruit then God WILL cut him off.

In Romans 11:17-23 Paul says that those who are grafted into the olive tree (God’s covenant) can be broken off for being conceited.

 

[swordsman1]

Paul would disagree

“Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:25-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

At no time have we lost our ability to rebel against God even after receiving the Holy Spirit.

Nothing in your quote disagrees with me. Especially seeing as I backed up my statement with scripture.

I never said a Christian would completely cease from sin. 1 John 3:6 makes it clear that it is REPEATED sin that is a sure sign of an unregenerate person.

1 John 3:6 “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”​

True believers however are given a new heart that is committed to obeying and pleasing God rather than self:

2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

Romans 8:5–6 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit​

A life that bears fruit is evidence of a life indelt by the Spirit.

 

[swordsman1]

Again Paul would disagree with you.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

There’s a perfectly good reason the doctrines of faith alone and eternal security were not established until the 16th century and have been refuted by every single church established by the apostles, because they were never taught in the church.

There is nothing in that passage that says love is a requirement for salvation.

The doctrine of faith alone was not invented in the 16th century, the doctrine is clearly stated in scripture. I've already quoted about 30 verses. If you think they teach something different then you need to offer an alternative interpretation for each of those verses.

I can quote dozens of early church fathers that affirm the doctrine if you wish.

 

[swordsman1]

This is completely irrelevant because Judas is not present and Jesus is speaking directly to His 11 faithful apostles. Why would Jesus tell His faithful 11 apostles to remain in Him if they are incapable of failing to remain in Him?

It is totally relevant. A few minutes earlier Jesus had dismissed Judas from the supper to go about his evil deed. He is the obvious example of someone who was apparently "in the Vine" but who turned out to be unregenerate.

 

[swordsman1]

See the problem here is you can’t accept what Jesus actually said. Jesus says these branches are in Him and you say they’re not really in Him, even tho I pointed out a parable by Jesus that shows that not everyone immediately bears fruit so God is patient with them for a while. But if that person doesn’t begin to bear fruit then God WILL cut him off.

In Romans 11:17-23 Paul says that those who are grafted into the olive tree (God’s covenant) can be broken off for being conceited.

You did not address my points.

As I mentioned before if your understanding is correct then it creates a contradiction. You say that true believers who are abiding in Christ can stop producing fruit and be cut off. But verse 5 says that if someone is abiding in Christ they WILL produce fruit. So your interpretation is far from convincing, especially as we are dealing with an analogy here and analogies are notoriously easy to misinterpret. A rule of hermeneutics is to allow clearer passages shed light on more difficult passages and there are a number of other scriptures that clearly indicate salvation cannot be lost. But I am not going to quote them here because this topic is not about losing salvation, it is about gaining salvation and we have deviated enough. Maybe you should start a new topic and there have a go at answering some of my points that you have so far failed to address.

 

[klutedavid]

I don’t believe it’s the works themselves that play a role but the motivation behind the works, the love that leads to works. Both love for God and love for others.

Always grace first, then faith, love should follow at some future stage.

 

[klutedavid]

Mark.16

1. [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
2. 
   the thief on the cross who was destined to be with Christ in paradise the very day of Christ’s crucifixion was saved. A man cannot immerse you in water thus conveying salvation. Salvation comes through faith by The Grace of God The Father of our Lord and Savior Jesus The Christ. The promise that if one seeks they will find is very encouraging. God The Father doesn’t want anyone to parish. It is difficult to see how anything that God The Father wants could resist his Will.

I would not base a doctrine on one verse as that would be most unwise.

 

[klutedavid]

This is completely irrelevant because Judas is not present and Jesus is speaking directly to His 11 faithful apostles. Why would Jesus tell His faithful 11 apostles to remain in Him if they are incapable of failing to remain in Him?

Remaining in Jesus has nothing to do with becoming a Christian. Paul told us (1 Corinthians 15) what the basis of salvation consisted of.

Whether or not a branch is severed later on for not bearing fruit, is outside the scope of the OP.

 

[fhansen]

There is nothing in that passage that says love is a requirement for salvation.

The doctrine of faith alone was not invented in the 16th century, the doctrine is clearly stated in scripture. I've already quoted about 30 verses. If you think they teach something different then you need to offer an alternative interpretation for each of those verses.

I can quote dozens of early church fathers that affirm the doctrine if you wish.

Well, the church has historically continuously understood that love is required. No love, no real justice/righteousness; no love, no authentic fulfillment of the law/commandments as Jesus said we must to inherit eternal life. No love, no works done for "the least of these" as in Matt 25. Love is New Testament motivation properly understood, not at all in conflict with Scripture and, like I said, the classical understanding. Love is what faith is meant to lead to by establishing communion with God, the only One who can produce that love in us, 'placing His law in our minds and writing them on our hearts'. Jer 31.

As Augustine put it, "Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13

 

[pasifika]

Well, the church has historically continuously understood that love is required. No love, no real justice/righteousness; no love, no authentic fulfillment of the law/commandments as Jesus said we must to inherit eternal life. No love, no works done for "the least of these" as in Matt 25. Love is New Testament motivation properly understood, not at all in conflict with Scripture and, like I said, the classical understanding. Love is what faith is meant to lead to by establishing communion with God, the only One who can produce that love in us, 'placing His law in our minds and writing them on our hearts'. Jer 31.

As Augustine put it, "Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13

Love is the fruit of genuine faith

 

[fhansen]

Love is the fruit of genuine faith

Should be. But Paul lists the virtues separately: faith, hope, and love-and identifies love as the most important. Demons may believe, but they don't love, at least not God and neighbor anyway. Either way I believe we should understand love to be both a believers greatest gift (the very definition of righteousness for man)-and his greatest obligation, the goal to be desired and striven for in any case.

 

[pasifika]

Should be. But Paul lists the virtues separately: faith, hope, and love-and identifies love as the most important. Demons may believe, but they don't love, at least not God and neighbor anyway. Either way I believe we should understand love to be both a believers greatest gift (the very definition of righteousness for man)-and his greatest obligation, the goal to be desired and striven for in any case.

Faith, hope and Love are not separate virtues, but Faith and hope lead to Love... Love is where all good things ends.

 

[fhansen]

Faith, hope and Love are not separate virtues, but Faith and hope lead to Love... Love is where all good things ends.

Ok? I'm not sure how you know they're not separate, and it sort of seems that they must be separate if any can lead to any other but... either way the Church has historically taught that while faith and hope may exist without love, love includes and encompasses the rest. IOW, we can forfeit or lose our love while still knowing that God exists.

In any case love is the heart of our faith-and something that is not so easy to cultivate in ourselves. To love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves is a tall order-while an incomparably good and worthy goal. It's the reason that Jesus came and did what He did and He wants it to be our reason; it's the very nature of God that He wants to transform us into; it's the essence of the light that He sheds and wants to enlighten us with. He wants us to know and live in that same love.

 

[swordsman1]

As Augustine put it, "Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13

"Faith" in 1 Cor 13:2 is not saving faith, but rather the spiritual gift of faith (1 Cor 12:9). The context of that passage is spiritual gifts. I'm sure Augustine realised that.

This is what Augustine wrote about saving faith, together with a small selection of other church fathers' writings on the matter (there are many more):

"And by this I am persuaded that exemption from fasting on the seventh day is more suitable, not indeed to obtain, but to foreshadow, that eternal rest in which the true Sabbath is realized, and which is obtained only by faith," - Augustine - NPNF1: Vol. 1, Letter 36, 25.

“Similarly we also, who by His will have been called in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, or our own wisdom or understanding or godliness, nor by such deeds as we have done in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which Almighty God has justified all men since the beginning of time. Glory be to Him, forever and ever, Amen.”- St. Clement of Rome (? – ~101 AD) (Letter to the Corinthians, par. 32)

“Human beings can be saved from the ancient wound of the serpent in no other way than by believing in him who, when he was raised up from the earth on the tree of martyrdom in the likeness of sinful flesh, drew all things to himself and gave life to the dead.”- St. Irenaeus (130 – 202 AD) (Against the Heresies, IV, 2, 7)

“Indeed, this is the perfect and complete glorification of God, when one does not exult in his own righteousness, but recognizing oneself as lacking true righteousness to be justified by faith alone in Christ.”- St. Basil the Great (330 – 379 AD) (Homily on Humility, PG 31.532; TFoTC vol. 9, p. 479)

“But we all escape the condemnation for our sins referred to above, if we believe in the grace of God through His Only-begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, who said: ‘This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto the remission of sins.”- St. Basil the Great (330 – 379 AD) (Concerning Baptism, TfoTC vol. 9, p. 344)

“To this end has His Grace and Goodness been formed upon us in Christ Jesus, that being dead according to works, redeemed through faith and saved by grace, we might receive the gift of this great deliverance.” Ambrose (337-397 AD), Letter 76 to Irenaeus, a layman​

 

[pasifika]

Ok? I'm not sure how you know they're not separate, and it sort of seems that they must be separate if any can lead to any other but... either way the Church has historically taught that while faith and hope may exist without love, love includes and encompasses the rest. IOW, we can forfeit or lose our love while still knowing that God exists.

In any case love is the heart of our faith-and something that is not so easy to cultivate in ourselves. To love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves is a tall order-while an incomparably good and worthy goal. It's the reason that Jesus came and did what He did and He wants it to be our reason; it's the very nature of God that He wants to transform us into; it's the essence of the light that He sheds and wants to enlighten us with. He wants us to know and love in that same love.

God is Love and whom everything flows from...Faith, hope grows or develop over time through our knowledge of Christ...

 

[fhansen]

God is Love and whom everything flows from...Faith, hope grows or develop over time through our knowledge of Christ...

It should, and can-we're the wildcard in it all. Either way man is obligated to love. The New Testament, the gospel, the entire bible points us to that one goal: "Thou Shall love", in a nutshell. And when we really do love, we obey willingly, of our own accord without reference to the command.

 

[pasifika]

It should, and can-we're the wildcard in it all. Either way man is obligated to love. The New Testament, the gospel, the entire bible points us to that one goal: "Thou Shall love", in a nutshell. And when we really do love, we obey willingly, of our own accord without reference to the command.

There is a difference in the love we have in our fallen nature and the love of God that the Bible emphasise...so it's very important when we talk about the love in the bible were are talking about the love that is from God....

 

[Zachm531]

Why did he need to be baptized?

Can you show the part in Acts 16:30-33 where it says he NEEDED to be baptized?

 

[fhansen]

There is a difference in the love we have in our fallen nature and the love of God that the Bible emphasise...so it's very important when we talk about the love in the bible were are talking about the love that is from God....

I agree-and have made it a point to do so in some of my posts.

 

[fhansen]

"Faith" in 1 Cor 13:2 is not saving faith, but rather the spiritual gift of faith (1 Cor 12:9). The context of that passage is spiritual gifts. I'm sure Augustine realised that.

Faith is faith and I'm sure that neither Paul nor Augustine distinguished it as you have-they knew what they were saying. The "spiritual gift of faith", aka one of the three "theological virtues", is the faith that they we're concerned with here.

This is what Augustine wrote about saving faith, together with a small selection of other church fathers' writings on the matter (there are many more):

"And by this I am persuaded that exemption from fasting on the seventh day is more suitable, not indeed to obtain, but to foreshadow, that eternal rest in which the true Sabbath is realized, and which is obtained only by faith," - Augustine - NPNF1: Vol. 1, Letter 36, 25.

“Similarly we also, who by His will have been called in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, or our own wisdom or understanding or godliness, nor by such deeds as we have done in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which Almighty God has justified all men since the beginning of time. Glory be to Him, forever and ever, Amen.”- St. Clement of Rome (? – ~101 AD) (Letter to the Corinthians, par. 32)

“Human beings can be saved from the ancient wound of the serpent in no other way than by believing in him who, when he was raised up from the earth on the tree of martyrdom in the likeness of sinful flesh, drew all things to himself and gave life to the dead.”- St. Irenaeus (130 – 202 AD) (Against the Heresies, IV, 2, 7)

“Indeed, this is the perfect and complete glorification of God, when one does not exult in his own righteousness, but recognizing oneself as lacking true righteousness to be justified by faith alone in Christ.”- St. Basil the Great (330 – 379 AD) (Homily on Humility, PG 31.532; TFoTC vol. 9, p. 479)

“But we all escape the condemnation for our sins referred to above, if we believe in the grace of God through His Only-begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, who said: ‘This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto the remission of sins.”- St. Basil the Great (330 – 379 AD) (Concerning Baptism, TfoTC vol. 9, p. 344)

“To this end has His Grace and Goodness been formed upon us in Christ Jesus, that being dead according to works, redeemed through faith and saved by grace, we might receive the gift of this great deliverance.” Ambrose (337-397 AD), Letter 76 to Irenaeus, a layman

All church fathers understood the vital role of faith, as it is man’s first response to God’s overtures-to His grace. It is the establishment of relationship with God, ‘apart from whom we can do nothing’, as opposed to legalism whereupon fallen man, still apart from God, endeavors to prove or demonstrate his righteousness by his own efforts. But the righteousness or justice that man needs to satisfy God is not encompassed within faith as if that’s all He wants of us; rather faith is the means or vehicle to that righteousness simply because it is the means or vehicle to God and the life of grace/the Spirit that results. Man was made for communion with God. Adam essentially thought otherwise. We’re here to learn how wrong he was.

Faith is the effect of reconciliation, so of course we’re redeemed by faith; faith is that reconciled state of being for man. We’re forgiven, washed, cleansed, made new creations. But faith by itself doesn’t guarantee that I'll walk uprightly or act in obedience; only love can do that. And that’s why Paul and Augustine do separate the two from each other. And so the Church can rightfully teach, quoting in this case a 16th century believer, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.” That, properly understood, sums up the gospel quite concisely. That’s where the journey that begins with faith is meant to lead to.

“Apart from Me you can do nothing.” With Me you can love as you should, and the law, which you’ll be judged upon even though it cannot justify you, is finally fulfilled, My way. Believe in Me; come to Me; I, alone, can justify you. I, alone, can make you who you were created to be. That’s how it’s always been.