What Makes One Righteous?

[David Ben Yosef]

(Deu 6:20-25 Judaica Press Complete Tanakh)
If your son asks you in time to come, saying, "What are the testimonies, the statutes, and the ordinances, which the Lord our God has commanded you?" (21) You shall say to your son, "We were slaves to Pharaoh in Egypt, and the Lord took us out of Egypt with a strong hand. (22) And the Lord gave signs and wonders, great and terrible, upon Egypt, upon Pharaoh, and upon all his household, before our eyes. (23) And he brought us out of there, in order that He might bring us and give us the land which He swore to our fathers. (24) And the Lord commanded us to perform all these statutes, to fear the Lord, our God, for our good all the days, to keep us alive, as of this day. (25) And it will be for our righteousness that we keep to observe all these commandments before the Lord, our God, as He has commanded us."

Okay Contra, I started the thread. I think the above quote speaks for itself. Keeping mitzvot as commanded by HaShem does indeed contribute to ones righteousness. However, I do think this particular doctrine contains a dichotomy. What are your thoughts my friend?

 

[David Ben Yosef]

I have heard some suggest that observing the mitzvot is not a "salvation issue." Yeshua disagrees with that notion.

(Matthew 19:16-17 ~ Complete Jewish Bible)
A man approached Yeshua and said, "Rabbi, what good thing should I do in order to have eternal life?" He said to him, "Why are you asking me about good? There is One who is good! But if you want to obtain eternal life, observe the mitzvot."

Straight from Mashiakh himself. Can it be any clearer than that?

 

[Gottservant]

Can you have a favourite mitzvot law?

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Can you have a favourite mitzvot law?

Sure. Mine is Shabbat. I anticipate it each and every week, it is such a joy!

 

[visionary]

His robe of righteousness on our shoulders.

 

[ContraMundum]

I think we have to define what we mean by righteousness first- as I have said before, there seems to be many levels and usages of the word. I mean in the JPS version alone it is found in 198 verses, often in varying ways.

Examples:

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.

Lev 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment; thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor favour the person of the mighty; but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

Deu 9:6 Know therefore that it is not for thy righteousness that the LORD thy God giveth thee this good land to possess it; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Deu 33:19 They shall call peoples unto the mountain; there shall they offer sacrifices of righteousness; for they shall suck the abundance of the seas, and the hidden treasures of the sand.

Deu 33:21 And he chose a first part for himself, for there a portion of a ruler was reserved; and there came the heads of the people, he executed the righteousness of the LORD, and His ordinances with Israel.

2Sa. 8:15 And David reigned over all Israel; and David executed justice and righteousness unto all his people.

Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed itself with me; my justice was as a robe and a diadem.

Job 33:26 He prayeth unto God, and He is favourable unto him; so that he seeth His face with joy; and He restoreth unto man his righteousness.

Then there's the word "righteous" and derivatives like Melchizedek.


So, here's my spin. We have no righteousness of our own. Over and over again the scriptures speak of The righteousness of God. "This is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord our Righteousness"—Jeremiah 23:6.

God's righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith. Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.

So, righteousness is imputed, but it must also be imparted to us, as all our good works and mitzvahs done in faith assist us to grow in righteousness, which ultimately only comes from and originates in God and His grace and will.

The issue to me is simple- if we can attain righteousness through our own works, then we certainly never needed sacrifices, let alone the Cross. Not just that, you can never know how much you need or even have (and what you need it for) if you take righteousness out of the context of sin.

This is the NT (all of it!) makes it crystal clear. The NT authors harmonized it all quite well.

So, I hate to say it on this forum, but the later Reformers got the interpretation of the NT right (on this point anyway). Outside of faith, all attempts at righteousness are done in an impure heart filled with and ruled by sin. Sin in not erased or paid for in works or going through the motions of the commandments. The Spirit does not fall on those merely outwardly keeping the commandments. In faith, with God joined with man by God's own grace, we get a changed heart and a new desire seek after righteousness, the commandments are done in joy, and, increasing our righteousness as we are in Him.

I realize here some people think that keeping the commandments is all that makes you righteous. But it still begs the question- when do you know you have done enough to be accounted righteous? Can one keep the commandments truly outside of faith first? Can one have true faith without a changed heart?

I think it all works together. You must be born again.

 

[ContraMundum]

Can you have a favourite mitzvot law?

Teffilin.

......Which according to the mere human opinion of some (not all) on the E. Orthodox forum means I am accursed.

 

[ContraMundum]

I have heard some suggest that observing the mitzvot is not a "salvation issue." Yeshua disagrees with that notion.

(Matthew 19:16-17 ~ Complete Jewish Bible)
A man approached Yeshua and said, "Rabbi, what good thing should I do in order to have eternal life?" He said to him, "Why are you asking me about good? There is One who is good! But if you want to obtain eternal life, observe the mitzvot."

Straight from Mashiakh himself. Can it be any clearer than that?

Harmonizes nicely with:

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

...but it must come out of faith. Yeshua always preached the Law to those in the Covenant- those who (should) know and have faith in God. The man who approached Him approached in with faith, wanting to obtain eternal life. In theological parlance, you would call this the (third) use of the Law to bring the believer back in line with holiness (and therefore righteousness)

 

[David Ben Yosef]

I think we have to define what we mean by righteousness first...

Absolutely. That's a perfect place to start.

So, righteousness is imputed, but it must also be imparted to us, as all our good works and mitzvahs done in faith assist us to grow in righteousness, which ultimately only comes from and originates in God and His grace and will.

Exactly! Well, the bold part anyway. That is the other portion of the dichotomy I referred to in the OP. So, does our righteousness come from G-d alone, or can we do something to contribute to it? I believe it is both...at the same time. Of course, this needs a great deal of explaining. I'll do that this evening. Good post by the way, you have given us lots of good stuff to work with. I don't think we are as far off as I had originally thought.

 

[ContraMundum]

Absolutely. That's a perfect place to start.

Exactly! Well, the bold part anyway. That is the other portion of the dichotomy I referred to in the OP. So, does our righteousness come from G-d alone, or can we do something to contribute to it? I believe it is both...at the same time.

Me too.

Of course, this needs a great deal of explaining. I'll do that this evening. Good post by the way, you have given us lots of good stuff to work with. I don't think we are as far off as I had originally thought.

I agree.

 

[Netzari777]

Interesting discussion.

I would add this:

You are saved by faith. However, you are not saved until the end. The notion of salvation being accomplished while we are still alive is a bit of a misnomer. Until I die, I can always turn away from the Lord in the same fashion that I turned toward him. There are warnings about 'losing salvation' in the epistles. I am also not 'born again' until I wake at the resurrection.

I don't mean to diminish the shadows of those things in our lives. However, I also don't think, like many, that the 'born again experience' is irrevocable.

Salvation is by faith alone.

My walk is the daily demonstration of that faith. I am either walking daily like I believe my God is the Creator, or I am not. If I love Him, I will keep His Commandments. I do it because it pleases Him. I do it because that is where He reveals Himself.

My daily walk should be letting him reveal more and more of His character to me.

If you already know everything you need to know about Yeshua, the Torah may not help you. But He said it was where His story was revealed. Luke 24:44

I don't want to barely make in. I want a backstage pass.

Salvation is by faith. Reward is by merit.

 

[visionary]

Interesting discussion.

I would add this:

You are saved by faith. However, you are not saved until the end. The notion of salvation being accomplished while we are still alive is a bit of a misnomer. Until I die, I can always turn away from the Lord in the same fashion that I turned toward him. There are warnings about 'losing salvation' in the epistles. I am also not 'born again' until I wake at the resurrection.

I don't mean to diminish the shadows of those things in our lives. However, I also don't think, like many, that the 'born again experience' is irrevocable.

Salvation is by faith alone.

My walk is the daily demonstration of that faith. I am either walking daily like I believe my God is the Creator, or I am not. If I love Him, I will keep His Commandments. I do it because it pleases Him. I do it because that is where He reveals Himself.

My daily walk should be letting him reveal more and more of His character to me.

If you already know everything you need to know about Yeshua, the Torah may not help you. But He said it was where His story was revealed. Luke 24:44

I don't want to barely make in. I want a backstage pass.

Salvation is by faith. Reward is by merit.

You are discounting the experience of many in scripture who are stated to be righteous, righteously living, and are named righteous by their behavior and reason for this behavior which is called faith.

 

[Netzari777]

How?

 

[David Ben Yosef]

You are saved by faith. However, you are not saved until the end. The notion of salvation being accomplished while we are still alive is a bit of a misnomer. Until I die, I can always turn away from the Lord in the same fashion that I turned toward him. There are warnings about 'losing salvation' in the epistles. I am also not 'born again' until I wake at the resurrection.

That is a great topic, but I believe it is outside the pale of this threads subject/topic of discussion, don't you? Contra and I are trying to participate in a thread that doesn't get derailed [like most do at CF]. Perhaps a new thread is warranted? Just a suggestion, I don't run this place.

 

[Netzari777]

I thought the discussion was regarding righteousness.

I thought I contributed to the discussion.

I am reminded yet again why I don't bother getting on these forums.

It was fun while it lasted.

I won't be back.

 

[Pete Rambo]

As you two discuss, I'd love to hear thoughts on 2 Sam. 22:21-25/Psalm 18:20-24.

David says,

“The Lord has rewarded me according to my righteousness;
According to the cleanness of my hands He has recompensed me.
22 “For I have kept the ways of the Lord,
And have not acted wickedly against my God.
23 “For all His ordinances were before me,
And as for His statutes, I did not depart from them.
24 “I was also blameless toward Him,
And I kept myself from my iniquity.
25 “Therefore the Lord has recompensed me according to my righteousness,
According to my cleanness before His eyes.

Certainly, I agree that salvation is by faith, not works, but the Hebrew understanding of 'faith' as an action is decidedly different than Western (Greek) thought of easy believism.

Until recently, I always saw two types of righteousness: 1. The righteousness of Yeshua, and 2. self-righteousness.

I'm beginning to see three: 1. The righteousness of Yeshua, 2. the righteousness that comes from obedience from the heart, and 3. self-righteousness.

So, faith in Messiah opens the door and keeps us/enables us, but we are to DO the works of righteousness that evidence our standing and lead to reward. And, Scripture does call it, 'our/my righteousness.'

Deuteronomy 6:25 says, 'It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the Lord our God, just as He commanded us.'

Thoughts?

 

[Lulav]

Is this just between you boys or can anyone play?

If so I have a question, specifically to CM. Since this seems to be the basis of Christian and some Messianic understanding of righteousness...

God's righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith. Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.

Now how can we be sure that it means this:

And he believed in the L-RD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.

And not this?

And he believed in the L-RD; and he counted it to Him for righteousness.

 

[visionary]

And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.
And he believed in the L-RD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.
And he believed in the L-RD; and he counted it to Him for righteousness.

What is the difference

 

[aniello]

I do hope this discussion doesn't get derailed, please.

CM and/or DBY, would you kindly define "impute" and "impart" for the purpose of this discussion and what distinguishes the one from the other, please? Thank you.

 

[Lulav]

I do hope this discussion doesn't get derailed, please.

CM and/or DBY, would you kindly define "impute" and "impart" for the purpose of this discussion and what distinguishes the one from the other, please? Thank you.

Excuse me.


Bowing out.