What it means to believe.

[justbyfaith]

Romans 8:13, For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

John 11:26-27, And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord, I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

By comparing theses scriptures we determine that 1) whosoever lives and believes in Jesus shall never die. 2) If we live according to the flesh, we will die; but if we mortify the deeds of the body in the power of the Spirit, we will live.

I conclude that whoever lives and believes in Christ will not live after the flesh but will through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body; because he shall never die: and of course those who live after the flesh will die. And of course also the condition for living is that we mortify the deeds of the body in the power of the Spirit.

Therefore because I believe in Him I will not live after the flesh but will mortify the deeds of the body in the power of the Spirit; and as a result I will live, and not die.

Therefore, believing in Christ has intertwined within its meaning a walk of not obeying the dictates of the flesh.

****related links****
The Iffiness of a deathbed conversion.

sanctification.

A sure foundation.
****related links****

 

[bcbsr]

Romans 8:13, For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

John 11:26-27, And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord, I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

By comparing theses scriptures we determine that 1) whosoever lives and believes in Jesus shall never die. 2) If we live according to the flesh, we will die; but if we mortify the deeds of the body in the power of the Spirit, we will live.

I conclude that whoever lives and believes in Christ will not live after the flesh but will through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body; because he shall never die: and of course those who live after the flesh will die. And of course also the condition for living is that we mortify the deeds of the body in the power of the Spirit.

Therefore because I believe in Him I will not live after the flesh but will mortify the deeds of the body in the power of the Spirit; and as a result I will live, and not die.

Therefore, believing in Christ has intertwined within its meaning a walk of not obeying the dictates of the flesh.

****related links****
The Iffiness of a deathbed conversion.

sanctification.

A sure foundation.
****related links****

Yep. I think John speaks to your point more succinctly, speaking in a lifestyle sense he says, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

 

[DeaconDean]

Romans 8:13, For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

John 11:26-27, And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord, I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

By comparing theses scriptures we determine that 1) whosoever lives and believes in Jesus shall never die. 2) If we live according to the flesh, we will die; but if we mortify the deeds of the body in the power of the Spirit, we will live.

I conclude that whoever lives and believes in Christ will not live after the flesh but will through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body; because he shall never die: and of course those who live after the flesh will die. And of course also the condition for living is that we mortify the deeds of the body in the power of the Spirit.

Therefore because I believe in Him I will not live after the flesh but will mortify the deeds of the body in the power of the Spirit; and as a result I will live, and not die.

Therefore, believing in Christ has intertwined within its meaning a walk of not obeying the dictates of the flesh.

****related links****
The Iffiness of a deathbed conversion.

sanctification.

A sure foundation.
****related links****

But the biggest question of all:

Have you so "mortified" the deeds of the flesh that you cannot sin?

Have you been so sanctified by the Holy Spirit that you cannot/will not sin?

There is a difference in coming to church, making a confession, being baptized, and after church running straight to the bar, and trying your best, with the Holy Spirits help not to sin.

Had Peter or Paul so "mortified the deeds of the flesh" that they lived a sin-free life?

I think not.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[justbyfaith]

Had Peter or Paul so "mortified the deeds of the flesh" that they lived a sin-free life?

I think not.

Then they did not practice what they preached; and were hypocrites.

 

[justbyfaith]

But the biggest question of all:

Have you so "mortified" the deeds of the flesh that you cannot sin?

Have you been so sanctified by the Holy Spirit that you cannot/will not sin?

I'm not going to say that I am never any more tempted; however in Galatians 5:17 I believe it does declare that, if you compare it to 1 John 3:9, though I desire to sin because my flesh is still a factor; I cannot do so because the Holy Spirit restrains me from doing so.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is a difference in coming to church, making a confession, being baptized, and after church running straight to the bar, and trying your best, with the Holy Spirits help not to sin.

If you're running to a situation where you know you're going to be tempted you've lost more than half of the battle. Don't even take the first step toward doing what you used to do before you repented, is my advice. You take that first step and it will practically take a miracle of God for you not to take all of the remaining steps towards committing that sin that used to hold you captive..

 

[DeaconDean]

Then they did not practice what they preached; and were hypocrites.

I love it.

You are saying Paul and Peter were hypocrites.

And of course, Peter was guilty according to Gal 2 of just that.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I'm not going to say that I am never any more tempted; however in Galatians 5:17 I believe it does declare that, if you compare it to 1 John 3:9, though I desire to sin because my flesh is still a factor; I cannot do so because the Holy Spirit restrains me from doing so.

Since when is being tempted a sin?

I see nowhere in the scriptures or from history where anybody, irregardless of who, ever lived a sin free life, even after salvation.

In fact, there has been one and only One who has EVER done that!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

If you're running to a situation where you know you're going to be tempted you've lost more than half of the battle. Don't even take the first step toward doing what you used to do before you repented, is my advice. You take that first step and it will practically take a miracle of God for you not to take all of the remaining steps towards committing that sin that used to hold you captive..

That's funny.

No where in my post did I infer going to a bar after salvation would be the norm.

If you confess, get baptized, and as soon as church is over and you go to a bar and start drinking like you did formally, your not saved.

Where would it be wrong to go to a bar to witness?

All you are trying to do it preach "sin-less" perfection theory.

This is how many threads you have started with the same theme?

Ay ya ya.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[justbyfaith]

I love it.

You are saying Paul and Peter were hypocrites.

And of course, Peter was guilty according to Gal 2 of just that.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Nope, they weren't. I can say pretty confidently that they lived holy, righteous, and blameless lives. Look at 1 Thessalonians 2:10, for example.

In Galatians 2, Paul's beef with Peter was that he was compromising the gospel message to the Gentiles; and I don't think that Peter realized this until Paul pointed it out. In fact, Peter was being obedient to the principles in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8. His only sin was that he was catering to the Jews in this at the end, and this gave the wrong message to Gentile believers. But in fact Peter was being obedient to the principles of scripture (Romans 14:15, 1 Corinthians 8:9-10) concerning the consciences of his Jewish brethren. And again, the problem with this was that in doing this in front of Gentiles, the effect was that he was compelling the Gentiles to live as Jews. It was a catch-22. In being obedient he ended up sinning against the truth of the gospel without even realizing it until Paul pointed out the effect it was having.

Therefore Peter did not sin, but was being obedient; and this obedience somehow the devil sought to use to bring about a negative result, of compromising the truth of the gospel. So in rebuking Peter Paul was not calling out Peter for sin, but was rather dealing with a problem that would arise out of Peter's obedience to these principles. It just goes to show how wily the devil really is.

And yes, Paul called it dissimulation; because Peter was indeed acting differently now that the Jews were present in the situation. But in this case their (as Barnabas and others were also included in this behaviour) dissimulation was not a sin but a sensitivity to the consciences of the Jewish people who had come on the scene. If Peter sinned at all it was in that he ate with the Gentiles in the first place.

 

[justbyfaith]

Since when is being tempted a sin?

I see nowhere in the scriptures or from history where anybody, irregardless of who, ever lived a sin free life, even after salvation.

In fact, there has been one and only One who has EVER done that!

God Bless

Till all are one.

The Bible promises that we can live a sin-free life (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:5-9, 1 John 5:18, 1 John 2:17 w/ 1 John 3:6, 1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6, Ezekiel 36:25-27, 2 Corinthians 5:17, and many more).

And yes, Paul and his companions were living sin-free in their dealings with the Thessalonicans (1 Thessalonians 2:10).

 

[justbyfaith]

Where would it be wrong to go to a bar to witness?

If alcohol is your weakness it's simply not a good idea; and if you end up drinking in that bar you are doing more harm to the gospel message than if you didn't go there at all.

 

[justbyfaith]

God Bless

Till all are one.

You'll probably only get your wish after the rapture of the church occurs, and all that are left in the world are ungodly people. Then the world will be unified in ungodliness. Until then, there is a war going on between righteousness and sin; and there will never be any unification by the righteous compromising and giving ourselves over to sin so that we would become like the rest of the world in our nature, character, and behaviour.

Therefore it would be better for you to say, Till the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the unbelieving world is left behind and becomes immediately one, being unified by ungodliness.

 

[DeaconDean]

You'll probably only get your wish after the rapture of the church occurs, and all that are left in the world are ungodly people. Then the world will be unified in ungodliness. Until then, there is a war going on between righteousness and sin; and there will never be any unification by the righteous compromising and giving ourselves over to sin so that we would become like the rest of the world in our nature, character, and behaviour.

Therefore it would be better for you to say, Till the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the unbelieving world is left behind and becomes immediately one, being unified by ungodliness.

I will challenge you on that statement.

Show me one post, in my history here where I have advocated Christians "giving ourselves over to sin"?

Sin will be as much a part of our nature after salvation as before.

All one has to do is read Paul's epistle to the Romans.

You cannot show me one single verse in the scriptures that say after the point of salvation, you will never sin again.

Example: if I'm traveling down the road, and a person pulls out in front of me and I collide with them totaling my car. And I call them a (***), I have sinned. Yes, I admit, it was out of anger, frustration, etc, and there is no excuse. But I have sinned.

Now if we take another one of the verses you have used in similar threads:

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." -1 Jn. 3:6 (KJV)

This verse is a double-edged sword.

1. You either live a "sin free" life, meaning you abide in Christ or
2. If you sin, willing or unwillingly, you are not saved, neither have you seen Him, or had an encounter with Christ.

So, according to your previous post, we must, must conclude that Peter was never saved, never knew Christ because he was guilty of disobeying God 3 times as recorded in the book of Acts, and was guilty of "hypocrisy" according to Paul in Galatians 2.

And lets not forget Paul. The same applies to him. Unless I'm mistaken, was it Paul who said to the Jews I become a Jew that I might gain the Jews?

Who besides Jesus knew the "law" better than Paul? Paul admits he sinned when he "reviled" the high priest which was against the OT Law.

And was not Paul also guilty of sinning in disobeying the Holy Spirit (God) when told not to go to Jerusalem? (Acts 21)

Sorry, your wrong.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Just to remind folks here:

Do not teach or promote sinless perfectionism.

Link

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Benjamin B. Warfield wrote:

"Entire Sanctification, 1 Thess. 5:23-24"

And now, let us observe, thirdly, the period to which the Apostle assigns the accomplishment of this great hope. It is at once evident that he is not dealing with this perfection as a thing already in the possession of his readers. It is not a matter of congratulation to them—as some Christian graces were, for the presence of which in their hearts he thanks God,—but a matter of prayer to God for them. It is a thing not yet in possession but in petition. It is yet to come to them. He does not permit us to suppose, then, that the Thessalonians had already attained—or should already have attained—it. He thanks God, indeed, for their rescue from the state in which they were by nature. He thanks God for their great attainments in Christian living. But he does not suggest they had already reached the goal. On the contrary, a great part of the letter is taken up with exhortation to Christian duties not yet overtaken, graces of Christian living still to be cultivated. His readers are treated distinctly and emphatically as viatores, not yet as comprehensores. Not in and of them, but in and of God, is the perfection which he prays for. What we see is not hoped for, what we pray for is not already attained. Moreover the very pledge he gives of the attainment of this perfection bears in it an implication that it is yet a matter of hope, not of possession. He pledges the faithfulness of God, the Caller. Accordingly, the perfection longed for and promised is not given in the call itself; it is not the invariable possession of the Christian soul. He that is called looks yet for it; it is sought still; and at the hands of the Caller whose faithfulness assures the performance. The performance, therefore, still lags.

It is clear, therefore, that Paul, though promising this perfection as the certain heritage of every Christian man, presents it as a matter of hope, not yet seen; not as a matter of experience, already enjoyed. That it belongs to us as Christians we can be assured only by the faithfulness of God, the Performer as well as the Caller. Can we learn from Paul when we can hope for it? Assuredly, he has not left us in ignorance here. He openly declares, indeed, the term of our imperfection—the point of entrance into our perfection. "May the God of peace," he prays, "sanctify you wholly and may there be preserved blamelessly perfect your spirit and soul and body, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" You see it is on the second advent of Christ—and that is the end of the world, and the judgment day—that the Apostle has his eyes set. There is the point of time to which he refers the completeness of our perfecting.

And if you will stop and consider a moment, you will perceive that it must be so, for the entire perfecting, at least, of which the Apostle speaks. For you will bear in mind that the perfecting includes the perfecting of the body also. It is the perfecting of the whole man that he prays for, and this expressly includes the body as well as the soul and spirit. Now the perfected body is given to man only at the resurrection, at the last day, which is the day of the second coming of Christ. Until then the body is mouldering in the grave. Whether spiritual perfection may be attained before then, he does not in this passage say. But the analogy of the body will apparently go so far as this, at all events—it raises a suspicion that the perfecting of the soul and spirit also will be gradual, the result of a process, and will be completed only in a crisis, a cataclysmic moment, when the Spirit of God produces in them the fitness to live with God. This suspicion is entirely borne out by Paul's dabbing with the whole matter of sanctification in this context, and in this whole epistle: as a matter of effort, long-continued and strenuous, building up slowly the structure to the end. There is no promise of its completion in this life; there is no hint that it may be completed in this life. There is only everywhere strong exhortations to ceaseless effort; and strong encouragements by promises of its completion in the end—against "that day." "That day" of judgment, that is, when God shall take account of all men and of all that is in man.

What is thus fairly implied here is openly taught elsewhere. Men here are not comprehensores but viatores; we are fighting the good fight; we are running the race. The prize is yonder. And not until the body of this death is laid aside shall the soul be fitted to enter naked into the presence of its Lord, there expecting until the body shall be restored to it—no longer a body of death but of glory. Meanwhile the gradual process of sanctification goes on in soul and body —until the crisis comes when the "Spiritus Creator" shall powerfully intervene with the final acts of renewal."

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[justbyfaith]

Since it is now forbidden by the rules for me to respond in such a way as to promote the concept of entire sanctification, you are going to have to deal with the Holy Spirit and not me concerning the issue. I may even be leaving these boards permanently because of this new rule. Suffice it to say that the devil does not want for it to be preached for a reason.

 

[DeaconDean]

Since it is now forbidden by the rules for me to respond in such a way as to promote the concept of entire sanctification, you are going to have to deal with the Holy Spirit and not me concerning the issue. I may even be leaving these boards permanently because of this new rule. Suffice it to say that the devil does not want for it to be preached for a reason.

It's not a "new rule".

Its your job to be aware of the rules.

"Christian Forums reserves the right in its sole discretion, to modify these rules without notice or warning. It is your responsibility to review these rules regularly and ensure your compliance with them."

Link

"By using this website, you acknowledge your acceptance and understanding of these rules."

Ibid

A lot of people, when they are newbies, including me, just think they can go to any area, and spout their individual denominations dogmas. I can't relate how many times RCC followers did this in my groups area, and I'm also sure some of my group did the same in their area.

But, as they say, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse".

At the top of each area is a "Statement of Purpose". IT IS YOUR DUTY TO READ IT BEFORE POSTING.

The S.o.P. for the "General Theology section says PLAINLY:

"Do not teach or promote sinless perfectionism."

Link

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but...fact is, you have at least 2 threads that I know of in "Soteriology" that deal with this topic. One thread in the "Hamartiology" area, and this thread here.

Other than Wesleyan and your own "group" Mainstream Christianity does not accept that notion of "Sinless Perfection" or "Entire Sanctification".

Now I invite you to discuss this topic to your hearts content in your area. I encourage you in that.

But, mainstream Christianity and General Theology does not accept it.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Even the most controversial Theologian of the 19th century, disagreed with that position, "Charles G. Finney".

"Charles Finney differs slightly on this issue in that he doesn't excuse sins of ignorance. And he furthermore has taken the stand that one loses their salvation every time they sin. Thus under Finney's theology one not only cannot claim to have achieved sinless perfection, for how would they know they've overcome the sins they are ignorant of, but also no one could ever claim that they are even saved, since how would they know whether they hadn't lost their salvation through a sin of ignorance?"

Source

I would be more than glad to discuss nearly any topic other than that with you here.

As far as your remark: "you are going to have to deal with the Holy Spirit..."

I am under no conviction from God about that. According to what I have been taught (Sunday school, Church, Seminary), according to what I read in the scriptures, God has never convicted me that I was wrong.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[1213]

...
Therefore because I believe in Him I will not live after the flesh but will mortify the deeds of the body in the power of the Spirit; and as a result I will live, and not die.

Therefore, believing in Christ has intertwined within its meaning a walk of not obeying the dictates of the flesh.

I think believing Jesus means that we believe what he said and act accordingly.

Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and don't do the things which I say?
Luke 6:46

 

[justbyfaith]

I am under no conviction from God about that. According to what I have been taught (Sunday school, Church, Seminary), according to what I read in the scriptures, God has never convicted me that I was wrong.

That is indeed a sad thing for me to hear. Because it indicates to me that you don't understand the scriptures; and also that your relationship with the Holy Spirit is severely lacking.