What is Your Take On Biblical Prophecies Fullfilled?

[rush1169]

Just doing some reading and came across this:

Biblical Prophecies Fulfilled - it's not a long read, so check it out.

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I am wondering if you consider the examples given to be substantially accurate, true, and factual (ie those predictions were made in advance and were fulfilled) or do you think there is some other explanation? If the latter, what is your explanation?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Just doing some reading and came across this:

Biblical Prophecies Fulfilled - it's not a long read, so check it out.

-----------------

I am wondering if you consider the examples given to be substantially accurate, true, and factual (ie those predictions were made in advance and were fulfilled) or do you think there is some other explanation? If the latter, what is your explanation?

Very simple. The books of the NT and the stories therein were written based on prophecies and "prophecies" in the OT -- at least to some extent. The second item of the prophicies listed in your link is a posterboy example of that. Some of the stories in the NT have Jesus been born in Bethlehem because the OT said so. Similar for the third item listed. Just work something about 30 pieces of silver into the stories somewhere.

A fairly simple, and very plausible explanation which takes care of the bulk of the prophecies offered up in one fell swoop.

 

[rush1169]

Very simple. The books of the NT and the stories therein were written based on prophecies and "prophecies" in the OT -- at least to some extent. The second item of the prophicies listed in your link is a posterboy example of that. Some of the stories in the NT have Jesus been born in Bethlehem because the OT said so. Similar for the third item listed. Just work something about 30 pieces of silver into the stories somewhere.

A fairly simple, and very plausible explanation which takes care of the bulk of the prophecies offered up in one fell swoop.

So, if I may try to understand, you're saying that the 13 examples given were fulfilled because humans wanted to fulfill them? For example, later authors wrote that Jesus was born in Bethlehem just to agree with what someone else had wrote? But maybe he was born somewhere else? The other 12 examples follow more-or-less the same pattern?

[edit] - You seem to say that essentially the predictions made in the OT didn't actually happen, it's just the later authors wanted to make the predictions seem like they happened. Maybe the later authors had a copy of the earlier author's writings and wanted to write something that made the prediction seem like it came true?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

So, if I may try to understand, you're saying that the 13 examples given were fulfilled because humans wanted to fulfill them? For example, later authors wrote that Jesus was born in Bethlehem just to agree with what someone else had wrote? But maybe he was born somewhere else? The other 12 examples follow more-or-less the same pattern?

[edit] - You seem to say that essentially the predictions made in the OT didn't actually happen, it's just the later authors wanted to make the predictions seem like they happened. Maybe the later authors had a copy of the earlier author's writings and wanted to write something that made the prediction seem like it came true?

Sorry, I am not sure I follow you with by later authors and earlier authors.

But roughly, a lot of the material in the Gospels can be attributed in some form to the OT. I have even heard people argue that everything in the NT can be attributed to the OT, with the exception of the crucifixion & ressurrection and that therefore, there might be something special about it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Just doing some reading and came across this:

Biblical Prophecies Fulfilled - it's not a long read, so check it out.

-----------------

I am wondering if you consider the examples given to be substantially accurate, true, and factual (ie those predictions were made in advance and were fulfilled) or do you think there is some other explanation? If the latter, what is your explanation?

Looks good to me!

 

[AV1611VET]

Very simple. The books of the NT and the stories therein were written based on prophecies and "prophecies" in the OT -- at least to some extent. The second item of the prophicies listed in your link is a posterboy example of that. Some of the stories in the NT have Jesus been born in Bethlehem because the OT said so. Similar for the third item listed. Just work something about 30 pieces of silver into the stories somewhere.

A fairly simple, and very plausible explanation which takes care of the bulk of the prophecies offered up in one fell swoop.

This just isn't so.

For example, our first president, George Washington, was born 22 February 1732 in Virginia.

Try writing that he was born in 1730 in West Virginia, and see what happens.

There are facts in the Gospels that no Jew or Gentile would dare write if it wasn't true -- and to even write it when it was true could get them killed.

Yet the Jews wrote about King Herod doing this and that, Pontius Pilate doing this and that, the Sanhedrin doing this and that, and so on and so forth.

Had this stuff not been true, the authors would not have voluntarily gone to their deaths believing a lie they themselves started.

Put another way ... say you wanted to start a rumor that George Washington was born in 1730, instead of 1732.

You get arrested and are ordered to recant.

Unless you have some kind of twisted death-wish, you will recant the lie you started.

You are not going to die for something you know for a fact was a lie.

 

[CabVet]

This just isn't so.

For example, our first president, George Washington, was born 22 February 1732 in Virginia.

Try writing that he was born in 1730 in West Virginia, and see what happens.

There are facts in the Gospels that no Jew or Gentile would dare write if it wasn't true -- and to even write it when it was true could get them killed.

Yet the Jews wrote about King Herod doing this and that, Pontius Pilate doing this and that, the Sanhedrin doing this and that, and so on and so forth.

Are you really comparing record keeping in the 1700's with record keeping 2000 years ago?

Let's compare apples to apples, shall we? Tell me, if record keeping was soooo good 2000 years ago what is the birth date of an important figure from that time? Say Pontius Pilate, when and where was he born? Or maybe someone else even more important. King Herod, when and where was he born?

Had this stuff not been true, the authors would not have voluntarily gone to their deaths believing a lie they themselves started.

Put another way ... say you wanted to start a rumor that George Washington was born in 1730, instead of 1732.

You get arrested and are ordered to recant.

Unless you have some kind of twisted death-wish, you will recant the lie you started.

You are not going to die for something you know for a fact was a lie.

I am going to convert to Islam! It has to be the one true religion, just look at how many people die for it on a daily basis. /sarcasm

Believing in something does not automatically make it true.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

There are facts in the Gospels that no Jew or Gentile would dare write if it wasn't true -- and to even write it when it was true could get them killed.

Yet the Jews wrote about King Herod doing this and that, Pontius Pilate doing this and that, the Sanhedrin doing this and that, and so on and so forth.

Had this stuff not been true, the authors would not have voluntarily gone to their deaths believing a lie they themselves started.

...

Unless you have some kind of twisted death-wish, you will recant the lie you started.

You are not going to die for something you know for a fact was a lie.

Relying on and drawing from older text doesn't necessarily involve deliberate lying. For example:

1. The OT says the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.
2. What the OT says is true.
3. Jesus was the Messiah.
Therefore, Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

If you operate under premises 1-3 then the conclusion follows, and nowhere involves deliberate lying.


But that is just an aside.

Are you familiar with the Infancy Gospel of James, AV? It is not in the KJV. It is a noncanonical Gospel. It does sport Herod, however. It does not speak kindly of him. Is that Gospel true too? It claims to have been written by James in no uncertain way. (Who as you know is a martyr. *wink, wink*) We, nowadays, do not believe any of it. See it as a disproof of principle.

Link for Infancy Gospel of James: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/infancyjames-roberts.html

ETA: And one more thing, in the IGoJ you can easily spot some reflections of Abraham & Sarah in Joachim & Anna.

 

[keith99]

I noticed right away that all those fail to quote the verses, rather they give their interpretation of what the verses say. An interpretation made AFTER, actually well after the prophecy has come true.

I've heard it said that most of the prophecies of Nostradamus have come true. The detractors bother to point out that some of them have come true several times.

 

[AV1611VET]

Are you really comparing record keeping in the 1700's with record keeping 2000 years ago?

No -- record keeping back then was much better.

I am going to convert to Islam! It has to be the one true religion, just look at how many people die for it on a daily basis. /sarcasm

I thought we were talking about the authors of the Scriptures.

If you want to bring up Islam, then bring up Mohammad.

Believing in something does not automatically make it true.

That's right -- but I was careful to stipulate:

You are not going to die for something you know for a fact was a lie.

In the example I gave, the person who changes George Washington's date of birth to 1730 would not voluntarily die for this lie he created; BUT, a person who later reads this lie, and believes it, may.

In other words, the author of the lie knows it was a lie; but the reader of the lie doesn't.

 

[Iosias]

vaticinium ex eventu

 

[keith99]

Here is one of their instances:

(7) The exact location and construction sequence of Jerusalem's nine suburbs was predicted by Jeremiah about 2600 years ago. He referred to the time of this building project as "the last days," that is, the time period of Israel's second rebirth as a nation in the land of Palestine (Jeremiah 31:38-40). This rebirth became history in 1948, and the construction of the nine suburbs has gone forward precisely in the locations and in the sequence predicted

Here are the verses. Do you see any sequence of events for the construction of 9 suburbs?

38 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.”

 

[rush1169]

Do you (anyone who disagrees that one or more prediction / fulfillment pair was actually that) think that zero are accurate pairs? Is it all-or-none? If you think some are not valid pairing, but some are valid pairings, which do you more-or-less concede to be accurate?

 

[AV1611VET]

Relying on and drawing from older text doesn't necessarily involve deliberate lying.

That's right.

For example:

1. The OT says the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.
2. What the OT says is true.
3. Jesus was the Messiah.
Therefore, Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

I find it very difficult to believe that all of Israel would have missed the birth of Jesus, had it been a lie.

Matthew would not write about the visit of the Wise Men and Herod's killing of the infants -- then gone to his death for it -- if it was just a lie he told.

Are you familiar with the Infancy Gospel of James, AV?

I'm somewhat familiar with them.

I believe Infancy III has Jesus as a Boy, standing on a corner and someone runs past Him and knocks Him down; and in a rage, He zaps the guy blind.

Some such bologna.

It is not in the KJV.

Praise God!

It is a noncanonical Gospel.

Praise God!

It does sport Herod, however. It does not speak kindly of him.

What's your point?

I'm sure if the author(s) of this were arrested and told to recant, they would recant.

Is that Gospel true too?

No.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

This just isn't so.

For example, our first president, George Washington, was born 22 February 1732 in Virginia.

Try writing that he was born in 1730 in West Virginia, and see what happens.

There are facts in the Gospels that no Jew or Gentile would dare write if it wasn't true -- and to even write it when it was true could get them killed.

Killed for what reason, and by who? Christianity was just a small cult in the first century, even by the end of the first century there would only have been a few thousand.

And you seem to be forgetting the contents of the apocrypha, which do exactly what you claim no one would dare do: write versions of the gospel that differ from the ones that eventually ended up in the Bible. Just shows that people were making up all sorts of different stories.

 

[CabVet]

No -- record keeping back then was much better.

So good that you didn't even bother answering my questions about Pilate and Herod.

In the example I gave, the person who changes George Washington's date of birth to 1730 would not voluntarily die for this lie he created; BUT, a person who later reads this lie, and believes it, may.

In other words, the author of the lie knows it was a lie; but the reader of the lie doesn't.

And how many of the people that actually wrote the gospels died for it?

 

[AV1611VET]

I noticed right away that all those fail to quote the verses, rather they give their interpretation of what the verses say. An interpretation made AFTER, actually well after the prophecy has come true.

I've heard it said that most of the prophecies of Nostradamus have come true. The detractors bother to point out that some of them have come true several times.

Nostradamus would be considered a false prophet; the litmus test being one single failed prophecy.

 

[AV1611VET]

And you seem to be forgetting the contents of the apocrypha, which do exactly what you claim no one would dare do: write versions of the gospel that differ from the ones that eventually ended up in the Bible. Just shows that people were making up all sorts of different stories.

They could have made up ten times the amount of stories; but not one of them would have died a martyr's death for their own lie(s).

 

[CabVet]

Nostradamus would be considered a false prophet; the litmus test being one single failed prophecy.

Which is?

 

[CabVet]

They could have made up ten times the amount of stories; but not one of them would have died a martyr's death for their own lie(s).

And how many of the gospel writers died for their writings?