What is your personal view on Communion/Eucharist/L-rd's Supper?

[yedida]

It is true that it could easily have been a teaching night, which was common among the rabbis with their talmidims. . In the Lubavitch rabbinic movement they have what is called “Moschiach’s Supper”. It is usually held the night before the Passover night, because it is used as a teaching class on how to keep the seder.

This would explain why they were sopping with the bread, which could not be done with matzoh. Yeshua in giving the sopped leaven bread to Judas and saying go is like a symbolic last minute cleaning the house of the leaven [sin] before He continues with the last messages for His disciples of the future they will soon witness and live through.

If everyone had mikvah for the Passover, the washing of feet would not have been done for the Passover meal. They would have already been "clean" by mikvah in their minds. So the significance of this washing of feet by Yeshua is more than the master washing the feet of the disciples, more than the lesson of being a servant, it is mikvah that washing of feet signifies. Washing of feet is a miniature mikvah.. a symbolic mikvah, if you will.

Yeshua is the living bread, the Word.. of which He said "This is my body eat"... breaking the bread and giving it to His disciples. So Read and consume the Word of God and let it be a part of you. There are twelve loaves of bread laid out fresh on the table of shewbread right under the light of the Menorah in the Temple, which is your body. Have you been placing putting fresh bread in your temple, and as part of the royal priesthood eating it? Hopefully we all have so been consumed with that which the Lord has spoken more than any other voice that we reflect it in our lives.



From what we can gather with no lamb mentioned, indicating it could either have been an Essene [mainly vegetarian group] seder or it was indeed a practice run as I suggested.

There is also the fact that the Sadducees and the Pharisees (along with the other sects) observed different calendars for the feasts. With the Sadducees in control of the Temple the lambs were slaughtered on the preparation day for them, but Yeshua could also have eaten the Seder according to the Pharisaic calendar. And going with John's timetable of entering Jerusalem on the Sabbath, and entering the House as the Lamb on Sunday, day 1 of watching would put the crucifixion on Weds, and Resurrection during the Shabbes' Havdalah, to be seen at sunrise on the first day.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Exo 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it between the evenings.

Ok to be short if Yeshua is our Passover lamb representative then it does not fit he would be eating the sacrifice that he was.

Now on the other hand, I think that the meal that was eaten by Yeshua and His disciples should have had some sort of precedence in the Torah. This also should be witnessed in the Torah somehow.

.

IMHO, I don't really see any real issue with Yeshua being our Passover Lamb and at the same time eating a lamb as the Law commanded ..and which pointed to His own sacrifice.

And to be clear, I do believe that Yeshua was perfect. For He was truly without sin and perfect...and whenever he spoke out against the temple (as was the case when he overturned the money-changers/tables in John 2 and elsewhere), I believe the Lord voiced His opinions toward the religious rank of the temple rather than the sacrifice itself. Nonetheless He came to fulfill and replace the sacrifice which is explained in Hebrews 9. His institution of Hoy communion confirms His body & blood replacing the animal sacrifice In John 6:44-71 (read all of John 6 though). Also St. Paul testifies to holy communion in 1 Corinthians 11 (mainly verses 20-30). However, while Jesus was alive He lived under the Mosaic Law which demanded animal sacrifice. It wasn't till after His Death (When His blood substituted for the blood of all animals) that animal sacrifice was no longer necessary. But, again that did not happen till after he died and was resurrected.

And with sacrifices, we already see where the Lord was actively involved in the sacrifical sytem itself...including partaking in lambs that were made for the purposes of sin (Exodus 12, Leviticus 23:4-6 , Leviticus 23:4-6 , Deuteronomy 16, etc):

Mark 14:12
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[ The Lord's Supper ] On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?" 13 So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. 14 Say to the owner of the house he enters, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ 15 He will show you a large room upstairs, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there.”
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Matthew 26:16-28
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The Last Supper
17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

18 He replied, “Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, ‘The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.’” 19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover.

Luke 22:14-16 Luke 22
10 He replied, “As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters, 11 and say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ 12 He will show you a large upper room, all furnished. Make preparations there.”

13 They left and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.

14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them,“I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”
​

The people who heard what Yeshuas' disciples asked about Passover preparations would have naturally understood them to be saying Christ was preparing to eat a traditional Passover meal as other Jewish families did....and they would not have thought that Yeshua was meaning He was not for the eating of a sacrificial lamb when He said "I have eagerly been wishing to eat this Passover Meal with you." I've often been of the mindset that there are certain laws that could not have been kept by the Lord since they never applied to Him....just like those who were not farmers had differing regulations/ordinances they had to obey that farmers were exempt from in Torah. As I've said to another before, some of this I have brought up before when others note how there's no mention of whether Christ in keeping all of the Torah chose to go up into Jerusalem/temple and make offerings of sacrifice for sins like all in the land did (and were required to do...Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16, Lev. 17:11 and Leviticus 7, Leviticus 5, Leviticus 4, etc ) since He himself was sinless. One can only imagine how other Jews may've reacted to one claiming to be without sin refusing to make sacrifices of atonement as all others......for it'd be odd to see a Jewish boy (When Yeshua was young) refuse to make any type of sacrifices of sin for himself or attend Yom Kippur due to claiming that He was WITHOUT any sin

If Christ kept the Law/Torah that demanded sacrifices and went to temple to do so yearly when he was alive, to me, the only way to reconcile that is to consider how Christ may've done so in the same way others ( i.e. Daniel 9 or Ezra in Ezra 9-10 or Nehemiah 8-9 and Moses in Exodus 32-33 & Numbers 14, etc) did when it came to identifying with the sins of their nations even though they themselves never sinned...much in the same way Christ identified with humanity via baptism by John even though he was not in need of forgiveness since He was perfect, as Christ noted he had to be baptized for the sake of identification/fulfilling all righteousness.

For more, one may consider the following:

• For the Sins of the Nation

• Identificational Repentance - Reconcile.org

II Corinthians 5:21 comes to mind as it concerns Christ being made sin for us...identifiying with us fully (Hebrews 4:14-16, Hebrews 2:5-18, etc).

Galatians 2:4 speaks very clearly on the issue of law and how Jesus was born under the Law and of a woman. He was born as a Jew, subject to GOD'S Law and fulfilling it perfectly/FLAWLESSLY. Thus, Jesus was the PERFECT Sacrifice because although he was fully Human, he never sinned..and His death brought freedom for us who were enslaved to sin so that we could be adopted as sons of God.

Some may say that the requirements of the Law (regarding sacrifices/offerings) were made only for "Sinful" man---and though I agree in part with that, I think it's over-reaching to say that was all of the purpose behind the Laws that God gave. For even with the laws being made for sinful man, saying its wrong for Jesus to keep it/walk by due to his being perfect and without sin is like saying it was somehow wrong for Christ to be BAPTIZED in Luke 3:21-22 and Matthew 3:13-17. For Baptism could be said to have been only for sinful man...and yet Jesus, the Father, and the Spirit had no issue with it. Baptism is a sign of repentance from sin, yet Jesus did not need to be to be baptized for sin since he NEVER sinned.....and in asking to be baptized, Jesus seemed to be taking one more step in fulfilling his earthly mission of identifying with our humanity/sin. As Jesus said, his baptism was to fulfill all righteousness....and by endorsing the rite of baptism, Jesus was giving us an example to follow...and he was being baptized for the sins of the nation.

In baptism Jesus was confessing sin on behalf of the nation. If that could happen with Baptism, other parts of the Law would be no different when it came to Jesus walking by it---and identifying with it when it came to sin. That does not make Christ out to be somehow less than SINLESS, IMHO--but rather, it shows just how far he was willing to go for the sake of identification with the people he came to save.

Identification is such a big theme in the life of Yeshua, as He was the Boss/The one who aided in instituting the Law of Moses...but in order to redeem His people, He chose to come under it in identifying with the people, much in the same way that an Employer comes down to the level of an employee/works in their position even though they, as the boss, has freedom to do as they please. The Law is subject to the Law-GIVER rather than the other way around.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yeshua is the living bread, the Word.. of which He said "This is my body eat"... breaking the bread and giving it to His disciples. So Read and consume the Word of God and let it be a part of you. .

So true how the Word...which is what Yeshua is (John 1)...sustains us. And we must partake daily...

 

[TorahxKeeper]

Which paticular scripture/reference are you referring to when noting what Judah took on half the Levites? Trying to be certain as to what was noted....

I do not find a specific Scripture that claims half the Levites stayed with Judah. I probably should have said a portion. That would have been much more accurate.

If one just says that 10 tribes left with Jeroboam, they assume 1 of these tribes was Levi, because Scripture does say the Benjamen joined Judah to stand against Jeroboam.

1Ki 12:21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.

Judah and Benjamin were the 2 tribes from the South, which this portion included Jerusalem.

The 10 Northern Tribes consisted of

Reuben, Simeon, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun,Ephriam, Manassh, Taking the place of Joseph,

Levi had no land, they were amongst ALL the tribes. Each Tibe would set apart a city for Levi to dwell in. So there would have been Levite's in both Judah and Benjamin aswell.

Also the Temple had been just built there would have been Levites who would have stayed to maintain the Temple in Jerusalem.

We do know that Jeroboam did NOT use Levite Priest in his altars to Baal.

1Ki 12:31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi.

They also tried to mimic the sacrificial system that was going on in Jerusalem, which is proof Levites were in Jerusalem with the Nation of Judah. The Temple could only be maintained by Sons of Levi.

1Ki 12:32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made.

Do you notice that even this was Not Levi Priest ..But the Priest Jeroboam used for the high places he had made!

Even though there is not a particular scripture, you could probably assume the Levites did not want any part of Jeroboams whoring after other g-ds My guess would be that they didn't stray to far from there shinny new temple Solomon had just built for them. Again that is a guess.

So I apologize, for claiming it was 'Half" instead of a portion, my bad choice of words.

There is plenty of Scripture to obtain the fact that a portion of Levi remained with Judah.

 

[yedida]

Which paticular scripture/reference are you referring to when noting what Judah took on half the Levites? Trying to be certain as to what was noted....

I do not find a specific Scripture that claims half the Levites stayed with Judah. I probably should have said a portion. That would have been much more accurate.

If one just says that 10 tribes left with Jeroboam, they assume 1 of these tribes was Levi, because Scripture does say the Benjamen joined Judah to stand against Jeroboam.

1Ki 12:21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.

Judah and Benjamin were the 2 tribes from the South, which this portion included Jerusalem.

The 10 Northern Tribes consisted of

Reuben, Simeon, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun,Ephriam, Manassh, Taking the place of Joseph,

Levi had no land, they were amongst ALL the tribes. Each Tibe would set apart a city for Levi to dwell in. So there would have been Levite's in both Judah and Benjamin aswell.

Also the Temple had been just built there would have been Levites who would have stayed to maintain the Temple in Jerusalem.

We do know that Jeroboam did NOT use Levite Priest in his altars to Baal.

1Ki 12:31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi.

They also tried to mimic the sacrificial system that was going on in Jerusalem, which is proof Levites were in Jerusalem with the Nation of Judah. The Temple could only be maintained by Sons of Levi.

1Ki 12:32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made.

Do you notice that even this was Not Levi Priest ..But the Priest Jeroboam used for the high places he had made!

Even though there is not a particular scripture, you could probably assume the Levites did not want any part of Jeroboams whoring after other g-ds My guess would be that they didn't stray to far from there shinny new temple Solomon had just built for them. Again that is a guess.

So I apologize, for claiming it was 'Half" instead of a portion, my bad choice of words.

There is plenty of Scripture to obtain the fact that a portion of Levi remained with Judah.

I believe you are correct in this assertion. There is nothing that would point to the opposite conclusion, except just common sense logic that some would have remained faithful to their God and some out of greater false loyalty to the tribe they had lived among would stay with those who wanted to go to battle.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I do not find a specific Scripture that claims half the Levites stayed with Judah. I probably should have said a portion. That would have been much more accurate.

If one just says that 10 tribes left with Jeroboam, they assume 1 of these tribes was Levi, because Scripture does say the Benjamen joined Judah to stand against Jeroboam.

1Ki 12:21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.

Judah and Benjamin were the 2 tribes from the South, which this portion included Jerusalem.

The 10 Northern Tribes consisted of

Reuben, Simeon, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun,Ephriam, Manassh, Taking the place of Joseph,

Levi had no land, they were amongst ALL the tribes. Each Tibe would set apart a city for Levi to dwell in. So there would have been Levite's in both Judah and Benjamin aswell.

Also the Temple had been just built there would have been Levites who would have stayed to maintain the Temple in Jerusalem.

We do know that Jeroboam did NOT use Levite Priest in his altars to Baal.

1Ki 12:31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi.

They also tried to mimic the sacrificial system that was going on in Jerusalem, which is proof Levites were in Jerusalem with the Nation of Judah. The Temple could only be maintained by Sons of Levi.

1Ki 12:32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made.

Do you notice that even this was Not Levi Priest ..But the Priest Jeroboam used for the high places he had made!

Even though there is not a particular scripture, you could probably assume the Levites did not want any part of Jeroboams whoring after other g-ds My guess would be that they didn't stray to far from there shinny new temple Solomon had just built for them. Again that is a guess.

So I apologize, for claiming it was 'Half" instead of a portion, my bad choice of words.

There is plenty of Scripture to obtain the fact that a portion of Levi remained with Judah.

Thanks for the clarification..and IMHO, no need for any apology at all I thought I understood somewhat the point you were trying to get at, but wanted to be certain the scripture verses I had in mind were what you were coming from. Indeed, the Levites did not have land and they were essentially "borderless" in where they could be apart of...although those who were truly devoted to the Lord would be more so in Jerusalem in Judah...one of the reasons Jerobam set up his own priesthood since his competition with the Southern Kingdom made him feel unstable when people from his own nation went down to Judah to go to temple (I Kings 12).

On what you mentioned earlier, I know that the Levites were present in Judah when it came to many righteous revolts against evil..such as what happened when one young king was in need of protection and a priest (Jehoiada) prepared a coup against the evil queen:

2 Chronicles 23:8
The Levites and all the men of Judah did just as Jehoiada the priest ordered. Each one took his men—those who were going on duty on the Sabbath and those who were going off duty—for Jehoiada the priest had not released any of the divisions.
2 Chronicles 23:7-9
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Later, the king that was protected by Jehoiada also used the Levites to do ministry:

2 Chronicles 24:5-7 2 Chronicles 24
4 Some time later Joash decided to restore the temple of the Lord. 5 He called together the priests and Levites and said to them, “Go to the towns of Judah and collect the money due annually from all Israel, to repair the temple of your God. Do it now.” But the Levites did not act at once. 6 Therefore the king summoned Jehoiada the chief priest and said to him, “Why haven’t you required the Levites to bring in from Judah and Jerusalem the tax imposed by Moses the servant of the Lord and by the assembly of Israel for the Tent of the Testimony?”



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Even though the nation of Israel was destroyed, many of the Levites survived and were in full support of Judah ( 2 Chronicles 19:7-9 , 2 Chronicles 30:24-26 , 2 Chronicles 34:8-10 , 2 Chronicles 35 )...more was shared on that issue elsewhere, if seeing the thread entitled Remain as you are?

 

[TorahxKeeper]

The subject of the Passover has been debated for centuries. I am sure I won't completely figure out all the debates this event has partaken in. I do understand why it is so debated, as it is with out a doubt the most important event in ALL of human history.

Myself I have enough Faith in YAHWEH and enough understanding of HIS word that Yeshua our Messiah did all according to YAHWEH's perfect plan. His plan was perfect in Egypt as it was in Jerusalem.

Yeshua being the Lamb of YAHWEH, only needed to fulfill the Lambs part in the Commandment. Which he did. He perished at the 9th hour (3pm) at the same time the Passover lambs where being slain according to the Commandment.

By doing so he fulfilled what he said he came to do in Math.5:17

"I did not come to destroy the Torah and the Prophets, I came to fulfill"
Or more precisely he came to Complete the Torah.

There was really only one thing the Torah could not accomplish through the law, and what Yeshua could.

ATONEMENT

No matter how many Bulls and goats were sacrificed they never could atone for any of our sins. Because none of those things could cover the death we were required of by YAHWEH through Adam. It was only YAHWEH's lamb that could do that.

Yeshua has re-opened the door back to the Kingdom of YAHWEH so we may be able to return to that Kingdom ..and to our King.

Now YAHWEH has given us the same choice he gave Adam by HIS grace.

Eat of the Tree of Life.....Or eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

So take the Bread of Life and partake in it..and take the Cup of Blood for the atonement of the Death that is required of you.

Then Rejoice in the Kingdom of YAHWEH!

 

[Lulav]

Nonetheless He came to fulfill and replace the sacrifice which is explained in Hebrews 9. His institution of Hoy communion confirms His body & blood replacing the animal sacrifice In John 6:44-71 (read all of John 6 though). Also St. Paul testifies to holy communion in 1 Corinthians 11 (mainly verses 20-30). However, while Jesus was alive He lived under the Mosaic Law which demanded animal sacrifice. It wasn't till after His Death (When His blood substituted for the blood of all animals) that animal sacrifice was no longer necessary. But, again that did not happen till after he died and was resurrected.

Yeshua lived by the Law of Moses, handed down to him by his Father. There was no 'demanding' it was a service for the people to be right before G-d.

If his blood substituted for the blood of all animals how does that save us?

The animals were a substitute for our sins.

Not all animal sacrifices were for sin, in fact there were more for other reasons than the ones for sin. Many were offerings to the L-RD, there was also the sacrifices of the first born, these were used as food for the Priests who served the L-RD in his temple.

"Consecrate to me every firstborn male. The first offspring of every womb among the Israelites belongs to me, whether man or animal."

The male children were redeemed, but the male (clean)animals were not.

Every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh, which they bring unto the L-RD, whether it be of men or beasts, shall be thine: nevertheless the firstborn of man shalt thou surely redeem , and the firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem .

 

[Lulav]

The Bread that Melkitzedek brought out to Abraham was leavened bread.

Or it could have been any kind of food as 'L'chem' means food of any kind.

Specific would be matzoh which is unleavened bread, but bread only.

So he could have been bringing out a snack for Abraham to refresh him. Rashi explains this as being done for those weary from battle, and he [Malchizedek] demonstrated that he bore no grudge against him [Abram] for slaying his sons (Tan. Lech Lecha 15). And according to the Midrash Aggadah (Gen. Rabbah 43:6), he hinted to him about the meal offerings and the libations, which his [Abraham’s] children would offer up there.

It is also said that Melkitzedek was Shem, the son of Noah. He would have been alive at that time.

 

[Zeek]

The Bread that Melkitzedek brought out to Abraham was leavened bread.

It is also said that Melkitzedek was Shem, the son of Noah. He would have been alive at that time.

That is merely a Jewish tradition that is without foundation because the point about Melchizedek is that he just appears on the scene with no back-ground info and certainly no lineage. We know Shem's geneology.

 

[Lulav]

That is merely a Jewish tradition that is without foundation because the point about Melchizedek is that he just appears on the scene with no back-ground info and certainly no lineage. We know Shem's geneology.

Merely?

Where does it say in Genesis that he had no background?

 

[Zeek]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Also by doing this Yeshua was declaring His royal priest hood, which gave him the authority to be a sacrifice outside the Temple, which would not require the Levitical priesthood to preform.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]His declaration of the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Melchizedek [/FONT]Priesthood and that Kingship is necessary for Yeshua to return as Reining King to reclaim his Throne.

We too are of this Royal priesthood. not after the Levitical order but by the order of [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Melchizedek.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]

Hi,

Are you trying to suggest we are also priests after the Melchizedek priesthood?

 

[Zeek]

Merely?

Where does it say in Genesis that he had no background?

Merely...as in it is not authoritative because it is associated with Jewish myths and fables which abound in literature connected with Torah.

Who says it is found in Genesis?...try Hebrews 7:3Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

 

[Lulav]

Merely...as in it is not authoritative because it is associated with Jewish myths and fables which abound in literature connected with Torah.

Who says it is found in Genesis?...try Hebrews 7:3Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

I'm asking for the reference in Genesis, in the Torah where it says this, not in Hebrews.

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zazal

Merely...as in it is not authoritative because it is associated with Jewish myths and fables which abound in literature connected with Torah.

Who says it is found in Genesis?...try Hebrews 7:3Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.
​

I'm asking for the reference in Genesis, in the Torah where it says this, not in Hebrews.

Then I will have to disappoint you as there is no reference in Genesis.

 

[Lulav]

Then I will have to disappoint you as there is no reference in Genesis.

Exactly.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yeshua lived by the Law of Moses, handed down to him by his Father. There was no 'demanding' it was a service for the people to be right before G-d.
.

As the Lord asking for something to be done on their part as a means of being right with Him--with the Lord setting the rules for how he wanted the people to approach Him if they wanted to be clean--demand is more than accurate, IMHO. The Lord did not need to have sacrifices...but as it concerns relationships, it was not an option for the people not to bring them if they wanted to connect with Him. Of course, that can also be an issue of semantics since sacrifices in/of themselves were never able to cleanse people of their sins.....and there was always the dynamic of what sacrifices symbolized when it came to what they poitned to.

As a Jew, Jesus must have kept the Law of Moses perfectly. Yet that same law required all Jews to keep the Passover celebration ( (Exodus 12:47 ). The Gospels specifically mention Jesus keeping three Passover feasts in Jerusalem....even as a boy (Luke 2:41-51). In order to keep the feast, the participants were given roasted lamb, bitter herbs, and unleavened bread to eat (Exodus 12:3-4). The entire lamb had to be eaten during the feast. If there were any leftovers, they had to be burned (Exodus 12:10). If Jesus did not eat the lamb, he would have been violating the Law and could have been accused of sin ( Numbers 9:10-13 ). The New Testament records that Jesus did eat the Passover feast, which would include the eating of the roasted lamb (Luke 22:14-15).

If his blood substituted for the blood of all animals how does that save us?

If His blood was not enough to atone for the sins of all mankind, it was shed needlessly for others since animal sacrifice would have been sufficient. The animal sacrifices covered sins rather than removed them in the sense that Christ had His blood remove sins.

Not all animal sacrifices were for sin, in fact there were more for other reasons than the ones for sin. Many were offerings to the L-RD, there was also the sacrifices of the first born, these were used as food for the Priests who served the L-RD in his temple.



The male children were redeemed, but the male (clean)animals were not

More than agree, although nothing has been said counter to that reality and I've actually noted such on a number of occasions when pointing out the ways others did sacrifices as a means of giving thanks unto the Lord...even after the Resurrection of Yeshua. More shared before in older discussions (i.e. #1, #2, #25 , etc). Not according to what Paul and others did (Acts 18:18, Acts 21, etc) when they still sacrificed/did things that required such....the Nazarite vow being the most notable in what it required with sacrifices (Numbers 6). If one has an issue with sacrifices, they need to take it up with Paul since he/others did so still.. ..both with animals AND with things such as grain/fruit offerings ( Nehemiah 10:36-38, Leviticus 19:23-25, Genesis 4:2-4, etc )...both of which could be offered in THANKSGIVING rather than for Atonement of sins (which is done by Christ).
Ancient Israel, as a nation, was required to make sacrifices to atone for their sins. This involved an animal sacrifice made on behalf of the individual by the priests (Leviticus 7:1-5 ). However, another sacrifice is described in Leviticus 7:11-12:

Leviticus 7:11-12
"This is the law of the sacrifice of peace offerings which he shall offer to the Lord: If he offers it for a thanksgiving, then he shall offer, with the sacrifice of thanksgiving, unleavened cakes mixed with oil, unleavened wafers anointed with oil, or cakes of finely blended flour mixed with oil."

This passage goes on to describe how the offering should be made and when it should be eaten. This was a separate sacrifice from the animal sacrifice for sin. It was a sacrifice that the Israelites could make simply as a thanksgiving offering to God. Later, when the nation of Israel had broken apart into the separate kingdoms of Judah and Israel, they strayed from God many times, with intervening years of repentance and obedience. When repenting and turning back to God, they would sometimes offer sacrifices of thanksgiving on the altar. Accounts of this are recorded in II Chronicles 29 and II Chronicles 33. On the second type of sacrifice mentioned in Leviticus 7, again, it is the sacrifice of thanksgiving. The Old Testament sacrifice of thanksgiving required fruit of the ground to be offered before God...although the NT sacrifice of thanksgiving requires the "fruit of our lips," ....essentially the same central idea that says God requires our thankfulness to Him for our many blessings. For Jewish Christians who were excluded from the temple community/could not make thank offerings or thank sacrifices, it was more than available for them to sacrifice via their words and praise.

There is no need for sin sacrifice since the crucifixion of Christ..for his death atoned for all the sins of mankind (Hebrews 7-10). But thank sacrifices can still be made if one wishes it--and if one wishes it to be verbal, they have that freedom as well....for again, this was allegorized within Hebrews 13:10-14 when it discusses the sacrifice of Christ for our sins, and how we can seek the coming "city"—the coming Kingdom of God—as a result of that sacrifice: "Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name." (Hebrews 13:15 ). As Paul and other Jewish believers NEVER had issue with it as they proclaimed the Finished Work of Christ, anyone disagreeing with them is in the category of needing to consider if they understand the Work of Christ at the Cross as THEY--Jewish Disciples/Believers---understood in during the times they lived in.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The subject of the Passover has been debated for centuries. I am sure I won't completely figure out all the debates this event has partaken in. I do understand why it is so debated, as it is with out a doubt the most important event in ALL of human history.

Myself I have enough Faith in YAHWEH and enough understanding of HIS word that Yeshua our Messiah did all according to YAHWEH's perfect plan. His plan was perfect in Egypt as it was in Jerusalem.

Yeshua being the Lamb of YAHWEH, only needed to fulfill the Lambs part in the Commandment. Which he did. He perished at the 9th hour (3pm) at the same time the Passover lambs where being slain according to the Commandment.

By doing so he fulfilled what he said he came to do in Math.5:17

"I did not come to destroy the Torah and the Prophets, I came to fulfill"
Or more precisely he came to Complete the Torah.

There was really only one thing the Torah could not accomplish through the law, and what Yeshua could.

ATONEMENT

No matter how many Bulls and goats were sacrificed they never could atone for any of our sins. Because none of those things could cover the death we were required of by YAHWEH through Adam. It was only YAHWEH's lamb that could do that.

Yeshua has re-opened the door back to the Kingdom of YAHWEH so we may be able to return to that Kingdom ..and to our King.

Now YAHWEH has given us the same choice he gave Adam by HIS grace.

Eat of the Tree of Life.....Or eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

So take the Bread of Life and partake in it..and take the Cup of Blood for the atonement of the Death that is required of you.

Then Rejoice in the Kingdom of YAHWEH!

 

[TorahxKeeper]

Hi,

Are you trying to suggest we are also priests after the Melchizedek priesthood?

That is exactly what I am saying.

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to Yahweh by Yahshua the Messiah.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Yeshua says we are to be a Royal Priesthood, If we were to be priest after the Levitical Priesthood it would not be of any royalty. Levites were Priest's only not Kings.


Heb 6:20 Where the forerunner is for us entered, even Yahshua, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


If Yeshua is a High Priest after the order of Melchisedec, then Rev 5 says..

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our Elohim kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

If you read Hebrews 6 - 11 You will notice how Shaul is explaining how this Priesthood came into existence.

I believe Yeshua is in fact Melchsedec as the Scripture shows


Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

King of Salem...This was the first name of the city of Jerusalem

Psa 76:2 In Salem also is his tabernacle, and his dwelling place in Zion.

King of righteousness.. Obviously Yeshua

King of Peace...again Obviously Yeshua

If you read Hebrews 6-11 you will see the essence of this,aswell as the Gospels.

Each Gospel shows us who Yeshua was and is, They are also our definition of the very Kingdom Priest we will eventually become as Saints of YAHWEH.
Mathew - He is KingMark- The Prophet Servant

Luke- He is the Son of Man

John- He is the Lord of Heaven , or the Son of YAHWEH

These show the attributes of Yeshua, and are also our guidelines of how we are to follow HIM in righteousness. Yeshua is our example, that we are to follow. He gives us HIS authority through gifts, of healing ,Prophesying, the casting out of Devils ..etc.etc.

We have the authority to baptize in HIS name for the remission of sins, that we with this athority guide those into the Kingdom. We are given HIS authority to lay hands which literally can pass the Holy Spirit to others as we utilize these gifts.

This is our authority of the Royal Priesthood, and we are to practice this.

Call them the New Covenant instruction books. You will notice that Hebrews 6-10 speak of the Kingly Priesthood, then it ties this into the New Covenant in chap.11.

Now we all know that the New Covenant has not come to it's completeness, and won't be until all is fulfilled. It will be then after the Resurrection of the Saints and the Kingdom has be reestablished that the fullness of our Royal Kingship will commence.

But until then we are commissioned by our King to represent and live a Kingdom lifestyle.

If you think about it and compare it to the Priesthood to that is in the Torah, you should see how it ties into why we are justified by Faith.

What is Faith, is it not obedience to the Word (Torah) This Faith justifies us utilizing the authority of the Royal Priesthood.

By which we are fully living a Kingdom lifestyle.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I am not really saying the we are somehow re-designated as Melchizedek Priest.

Let me explain it this way, I am saying we are part of that Royal Priesthood after the "Order" such as Yeshua is.

.....The type or order that Melchizedek represents, is also represented in Yeshua.

We follow Yeshua so by default if he is of the Order/Type of Melchizedek, then so are His followers.

.....we are part of a Kingly lineage thru Yeshua , as Heirs to HIS throne. without a Kingly lineage you cannot be an Heir. That is why it so important we know Yeshua's heritage to prove he is worthy of the throne he claims to bare.

That lineage passes to us by virtue that we become Sons Of YAHWEH, by accepting the Atonement from Yeshua.

As Yeshua was called the Son of David (as a Messianic Title) and expected to restore the Davidic Kingdom in new ways, IMHO, it would not be surprising to see Him act as David did.


David was a KING and a PRIEST ---and in many respects, what he did was a direct reflection of what the Messiah was going to be about. For the Lord made clear to his people in Exodus ( Exodus 19:5-7 ) that he intended for Israel to be a NATION of KINGS/PRIESTS - and yet the people themselves showed how disqualified they were and not ready for it, with Aaron/Co. being promoted to be representing the people (incdicating how the Aaronic priesthood was not always meant to be where the line stopped in God's Kingdom for ministry before him/qualification for certain levels of access)....and thus, one must wonder if the only way to accomplish that was to have others patterned after the type of King/Priest David was.....as that's exactly what Christ --the SON of David and the fulfillment of the prophecy of the seed of David (2 Samuel 7:14-16), confirmed in Matthew 1 and other places ( (Matthew 15:22, Matthew 20:30, Mark 10:47, Mark 12:35-37, Acts 4:12, etc ) ---did when he came down and made us into a nation of Kings and Priests.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+5:10&version=NIV1984

Revelation 5:10
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”
Revelation 5:9-11

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5-7
​

The same promise the Messiah gave to Israel when he delivered them was repeated once again in the End of all things.....with the Lord noting that His people will NEVER perish due to their nature as priests of God just as Yeshua is.