What is Your Motivation?

[rush1169]

So I was thinking. . .(uh oh). . .

Having a personal relationship with God is a big deal to me because life is just so much easier than without Him. During my first 15 years of life I went to church, learned all the 'important' stories from the Bible, and otherwise did all the 'churchy' stuff. Through my teens and then until I was about 35, I lived life without God except for a sporadic prayer when things were really 'bad' (to me). From 35 until now (I'm 43), I've welcomed Him back and have been studying and learning more and more about 'everything' (the history of the Bible, the writers, the times and places, ToE, the universe, atoms, DNA, stars, etc - essentially learning about all the stuff of divine and nature and their interrelationship). What I'm absolutely certain about is the profound change in my life for the better. I'm able to compare the 20 years without Him to the 8 with Him and am quite convinced of his presence and power and comfort and love and all the good that comes with that relationship.

Because of how much better I feel every day knowing God is walking with me, I often feel compelled to share that euphoria with other people. It's simply a fantastic feeling. When you experience something great, you like to share it with other people (I do anyway).

While I read these boards, I'm left wondering what motivation those who don't believe in a creator have trying to convice others of the non-existance?

=============================
If you have just started reading this thread, below is a summary of posts through page 4:

We believe that by posting on this forum we can suppress the creationist lobby groups who actively try to remove the ToE from our public school cirriculum. Removal of the ToE would result in the a reversal of the scientific progress of the human race and that potential result is our motivation.

Your logic escapes me on this matter:
If the ToE is not taught in public schools, then scientific progress would be reversed. Therefore, I should post at CF to help insure that the ToE continues to be taught.

If I post on CF my interpretation of the evidence that supports the ToE, then some readers who formerly did not share my interpretation will reinterpret the evidence in favor of naturalism. Therefore, if any of those readers who now interpret the evidence the way I do were lobbying to remove the ToE from the public school cirriculum, they will stop and the progress of science will not reverse.

-------------

The reason your logic escapes me is the assertion that omission of the ToE from public schools will result in the cessation of science and the assertion that your posts in this forum would make a measurable reduction in the number of people who do lobby against including the ToE in public school cirriculums.

Scientific progress does not hinge on the ToE being taught in public schools. But, even if it did, a christian forum is an illogical choice as a platform to convert people to naturalism. Attempting to convert people in a christian forum is like going to church to do the same - the only difference is you enjoy the protection afforded by the nature of the internet.

I must conclude that either your logic is flawed or your motivation to post your interpretation of the ToE is this forum is not to preserve scientific advancement by reducing the number of creationist lobbyists, rather something else.

 

[CabVet]

While I read these boards, I'm left wondering what motivation those who don't believe in a creator have trying to convice others of the non-existance?

I can't speak for the others, but I am not trying to convince anybody of any deity's non-existence. It is just too much for my head to get around the idea that only one God (or in other words, the God of whoever I am talking to) exists and none of the others do, or all the others are "wrong" and only their God is "right". As my signature says, there are literally thousands of Gods out there, you believe in only one out of thousands, that is just one more than me. When you understand why you don't believe in Thor, Zeus, Buddha, Allah, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you will understand why I don't believe in your God.

But by all means, if you had a personal experience that led you to believe in God, I am all for it. Just don't force that down anybody else's throat. See, when we talk about evolution, we say: here is the evidence, and you either accept evolution or you don't. When we talk about God, the religious say: here is the "truth" (and trust me, there are as many "truths" as there are religions), and you either believe in their "truth" or you don't. That is the big difference. But if the truth that you found (and believe in) brought you comfort and a purpose in life, all the power to you!

What I do here all the time is correct lies and misunderstanding about something I do know a lot about, and that is evolution. Just because the theory threatens your theological standings, nobody has the right to invent falsehoods about it and try to spread them as if they were true. You want to have a clean discussion about evolution? That is perfectly fine with me, but learn it first and don't just copy and paste misconceptions spread by creationist websites. To me, the biggest evidence that evolution is true is that not even its biggest haters (creationists) can come up with reasonable evidence against it, all they do is create lies about evolution and "prove" that their lies are wrong (straw man).

 

[Mr Strawberry]

So I was thinking. . .(uh oh). . .

Having a personal relationship with God is a big deal to me because life is just so much easier than without Him. During my first 15 years of life I went to church, learned all the 'important' stories from the Bible, and otherwise did all the 'churchy' stuff. Through my teens and then until I was about 35, I lived life without God except for a sporadic prayer when things were really 'bad' (to me). From 35 until now (I'm 43), I've welcomed Him back and have been studying and learning more and more about 'everything' (the history of the Bible, the writers, the times and places, ToE, the universe, atoms, DNA, stars, etc - essentially learning about all the stuff of divine and nature and their interrelationship). What I'm absolutely certain about is the profound change in my life for the better. I'm able to compare the 20 years without Him to the 8 with Him and am quite convinced of his presence and power and comfort and love and all the good that comes with that relationship.

Because of how much better I feel every day knowing God is walking with me, I often feel compelled to share that euphoria with other people. It's simply a fantastic feeling. When you experience something great, you like to share it with other people (I do anyway).

While I read these boards, I'm left wondering what motivation those who don't believe in a creator have trying to convice others of the non-existance?

I think people have different motivations. Some are appalled by the efforts of creationists to influence school curricula, others are outraged by money hungry evangelists duping vulnerable people. Speaking only for myself, my own particular frustration is in seeing people convinced of something, whether by indoctrination or by misinterpretation of their own experiences, that is simply not true.

Why should it matter if it makes them happy? Well, it shouldn't really. As long they keep it to themselves and it isn't harming anyone else, why should I care? It shouldn't bother me at all what they believe. But it does. It bothers me that people firmly believe they are having a relationship with something 'out there' that is merely a part of their own mind. That they think their sense of awe and wonder at the world they have found themselves born into must be evidence of a 'spiritual' dimension. That they are unaware that their ego is pampered and gratified by religion giving their existence a bigger purpose by making them part of a ready-made narrative of good guys and bad guys fighting it out for the future of the universe. That they fall into all the classic traps of selective denial in order to maintain these beliefs. That they demonstrate, with every word they write, how easy it is for all of us to believe things simply because we want to, and how stubbornly and what lengths we will go to in order to cling to those beliefs. It shoudn't irritate me, but it does.

I suppose if I wanted to put it succinctly, I would say that I don't like seeing people fooling themselves, even if it does make them happy. I feel uncomfortable watching someone believing their life is given meaning by something that isn't there.

Plus, they are usually badly in need of some science education.

 

[rush1169]

I am not trying to convince anybody of any deity's non-existence. . . .What I do here all the time is correct lies and misunderstanding about. . . .evolution.

So your posts are to educate christians about the ToE. Why do you care?

 

[CabVet]

So your posts are to educate christians about the ToE. Why do you care?

Because they spread lies about it and try to influence school curricula. I bet if they did the same about gravity there would be a bunch if physicists here doing the same that I do.

 

[rush1169]

Because they spread lies about it and try to influence school curricula.

I see - so you want to educate people about the ToE so that they will be less inclined to lobby against teaching it in school. Why are you motivated to do that?

 

[rush1169]

I would say that I don't like seeing people fooling themselves, even if it does make them happy. I feel uncomfortable watching someone believing their life is given meaning by something that isn't there.

So christians make you uncomfortable and to make your discomfort go away your solutioin is to engage them, one-by-one, in hopes to get them to give up God?

 

[AECellini]

my motivation for life is accomplishing my goals. i have a list of goals in my head which i sometimes share with others if it means they'll be accomplished easier. my plan is to be able to die accomplished. i also like to be nice (though not too nice) and help and work with others even though i lack the belief i will get anything out of it when i'm dead.

i don't think there is an underlying divine philosophical meaning in life obviously. i think it's more of what you want to do with your time here. it's depressing to think that we all will die soon, but i find as much comfort in the christian god as i do believing life is a one time thing. i find solace in the fact life goes on after my death.

i don't like to argue with people about whether their religion is true or their god exists because i don't think it's possible to convince those with strong convictions otherwise/make them think and even if i could, i don't think it would be in their benefit. on these forums i do ask for proof of god because people boldly claim they have it, and it's either the bible and using circular logic to claim it's the word of god, or it's people using fallacies and flawed concepts such as irreducible complexity.

 

[rush1169]

on these forums i do ask for proof of god because people boldly claim they have it,

So you participate on these boards to convice those who believe in God that they should not. But why?

 

[Mr Strawberry]

So christians make you uncomfortable and to make your discomfort go away your solutioin is to engage them, one-by-one, in hopes to get them to give up God?

Lol, not quite. Discomfort is usually a result of feeling pity for a particular indvidual, which obviously isnt always the case. Irritation is the more usual reaction. It's a bit like someone telling you they believe in fairies and then banging on about how great fairies are and what a fantastic relationship they have with the fairies and how fairies make their whole life bigger and better and more meaningful. Sooner or later you will be compelled to say, "yes, but...".

 

[AECellini]

So you participate on these boards to convice those who believe in God that they should not. But why?

if you actually read what i said, you would not have asked this question.

i do ask when please claim they have evidence because all of the evidence they present is either a circular argument using the bible to claim it's the word of god, a logical fallacy to misrepresent the theory of evolution and "show" that the evidence points to a god, or using concepts like irreducible complexity. what i'm trying to do is help people argue better by not using flawed points that have been shown to be incorrect time and time again. i don't want to convince anyone that there is no god. i don't know if there is one, many or none.

i participate to assist in the education of science to those that have a misunderstanding.

 

[Loudmouth]

While I read these boards, I'm left wondering what motivation those who don't believe in a creator have trying to convice others of the non-existance?

My motivation is to stop the religious attacks on science. I happen to believe that science is very important and vital to the progress of our culture and species. I see no reason to pull the human race backwards into history to a time of relative ignorance. If creationism was simply a belief discussed in Sunday School classes I probably wouldn't be here. Instead, creationists are actively trying to remove science from the classroom. I think that is wrong. I think it is bad for our country. That is why I am here.

You will notice that I post in the science forums. I don't feel the need to go to other forums in order to convince others that God does not exist. I may, on occasion, voice my opinion on the matter of God's existence, but for the most part that I argue the scientific evidence, or simply ask people to supply evidence for the claims that they make.

 

[CabVet]

I see - so you want to educate people about the ToE so that they will be less inclined to lobby against teaching it in school. Why are you motivated to do that?

I see, so you want to twist my words and transform them into what I didn't say. Why are you motivated to do that? Oh wait, that comes from the creationist playbook, I detect a troll.

I don't want to "educate people so they are less inclined to lobby" anything. My motivation, as I said in my previous three posts, is to correct misconceptions and lies about evolution. Are you going to keep asking why? Correcting lies is not a good enough motivation for you? Or are you ok with spreading lies?

What if there was a group of people that started spreading that Jesus didn't die in the cross 2,000 years ago, but that the whole thing was a scam? Would you try to correct them? Would you need a motivation other than the fact that they were lying?

 

[rush1169]

if you actually read what i said, you would not have asked this question.

Sorry - just trying to distill so I understand clearly. . .I didn't mean to get it wrong.

what i'm trying to do is help people argue better. . . i participate to assist in the education of science to those that have a misunderstanding.

So you participate to help teach people to argue better and to teach science? Why?

 

[AECellini]

Sorry - just trying to distill so I understand clearly. . .I didn't mean to get it wrong.



So you participate to help teach people to argue better and to teach science? Why?

because i like to. no other reason. i genuinely like talking about science and discussing it. i like to teach. i plan, after getting a phd and years of research, to be a teacher.

i like to argue with people who know how to. so if they are arguing with logical fallacies, then i want them to know that it is such in hopes they will learn to argue better. i do this for my benefit so i don't become frustrated. no other reason.

 

[Jamin4422]

it must be like being on drugs,

God is so much better then drugs that there isn't even any comparison.

 

[rush1169]

I see, so you want to twist my words and transform them into what I didn't say.

Sorry Cabvet - I'm just trying to distill for clarity - it was not my intention to twist your words.

My motivation. . .is to correct misconceptions and
lies about evolution.

"To correct misconceptions and lies about evolution" is WHAT you are doing, not WHY you want to do that. I'm just trying to understand WHY.

What if there was a group of people that started spreading that Jesus didn't die in the cross 2,000 years ago, but that the whole thing was a scam? Would you try to correct them? Would you need a motivation other than the fact that they were lying?

That scenerio is real and going on today and has been for a long time. I have no motivation to stop them - it's futile.

 

[Loudmouth]

So I was thinking. . .(uh oh). . .

Having a personal relationship with God is a big deal to me because life is just so much easier than without Him. During my first 15 years of life I went to church, learned all the 'important' stories from the Bible, and otherwise did all the 'churchy' stuff. Through my teens and then until I was about 35, I lived life without God except for a sporadic prayer when things were really 'bad' (to me). From 35 until now (I'm 43), I've welcomed Him back and have been studying and learning more and more about 'everything' (the history of the Bible, the writers, the times and places, ToE, the universe, atoms, DNA, stars, etc - essentially learning about all the stuff of divine and nature and their interrelationship). What I'm absolutely certain about is the profound change in my life for the better. I'm able to compare the 20 years without Him to the 8 with Him and am quite convinced of his presence and power and comfort and love and all the good that comes with that relationship.

Because of how much better I feel every day knowing God is walking with me, I often feel compelled to share that euphoria with other people. It's simply a fantastic feeling. When you experience something great, you like to share it with other people (I do anyway).

While I read these boards, I'm left wondering what motivation those who don't believe in a creator have trying to convice others of the non-existance?

So what motivates creationists to remove science from the classroom? What motivates creationists to reject evidence and misrepresent science?

 

[CabVet]

"To correct misconceptions and lies about evolution" is WHAT you are doing, not WHY you want to do that. I'm just trying to understand WHY.

That scenerio is real and going on today and has been for a long time. I have no motivation to stop them - it's futile.

The WHY is BECAUSE they are lies, misconceptions and falsehoods, and I am uncomfortable with people spreading lies. I would be perfectly fine (and would not debate evolution) if creationists admitted something like this: "all natural evidence that we have supports evolution, but our God is supernatural and he created everything anyways". But that is far from what they do, you know that.

I do however see how you think it is futile to stop people from thinking what they want about religion. There is just no evidence for you to debate with. You say the Bible is the truth, but believing that is up to the other person, you cannot force your truth on anybody. Trying to convince people about evolution on the other hand is not futile because we have real evidence about it.

 

[rush1169]

My motivation is to stop the religious attacks on science. . . .creationists are actively trying to remove science from the classroom. I think that is wrong. I think it is bad for our country. That is why I am here.

Do you think your posts in this forum are working at stopping the creationist lobby groups? If so, to what extent?