What is your "endtime" view?

[walt2000]

If I had a nickel for everyone I've met in the last 30 years who had their own special "lock" on the book of Rev. I'd a quit this gig long ago...but taking $ in relation to my faith is against my religion...

A friend of mine once had a chart system that showed he was the only one who was going to be saved...go figure... It can be a lonely life in heaven particularly if you're the only occupant.

You and me both,But this is explaining Rev.and there is a right way, and a wrong way .
And is only a theory. The best one I seen in forty years ,and I have seen quit a few.
You don't have to except this particular theory ,just see how this one repeats itself .I make no assumptions or predictions.This is all in order and not moved here and there to make a point. This comes right out of the mouth of Christ ,and in the same order ,we will know who is right ,when Christ comes to enlighten and explain it.
The right one will explain it self.
And if this ticks anybody off, he or she should find another subject .Mind you I know I have ticked of quite a few.I enjoy having intelligent discussions don't you.walt2000

 

[zeke37]

well walt2000, i checked out your chart...

many people here have charts....

you have not shown any reason to even take you seriously...



over half of Revelation is quotes from OT prophets....

 

[Bible2]

squint posted in message #47:

Revelation is "about" the REVEALING of CHRIST.

This REVEALING will transpire in THE TEMPLE(s.)

Jesus Christ will be physically revealed to the world
in the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) at His
second coming (Revelation 1:7, 19:11-21, Matthew
24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

squint posted in message #47:

Mankind, our BODIES, are THE REAL TEMPLES.

While the bodies of believers are real temples
(1 Corinthians 6:19), so was the first-century
temple-building in Jerusalem a real temple (Matthew
21:12-13, 23:21, Luke 1:9), even after the
establishment of the Church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46,
3:1, 22:17), and so is the temple-building in the
third heaven a real temple (Revelation 11:19, 15:8).
Likewise, the Orthodox Jews will rebuild a temple-
building in Jerusalem which will be a real temple
(Revelation 11:1-2), before which they will offer
Mosaic daily sacrifices to God. But then, after two
or three years the Antichrist will stop the daily
sacrifices and sit in the temple-building and
proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel
11:31,36).

It could be the Orthodox Jews' desire to rebuild a
temple-building in Jerusalem that could eventually
bring about the destruction of the state of Israel,
even before the Antichrist comes on the scene. What
could happen is that some Orthodox Jews could blow up
the Dome of the Rock (one of the holiest sites of
Islam) because it's sitting on the site where the
former Jewish temple-buildings stood in ancient
times. That's why the hill on which the Dome of the
Rock is located is called the "Temple Mount". Some
Orthodox Jews, brought to a state of extreme
excitement by the discovery of the Ark of the
Covenant and/or the appearance of a miracle-working
Orthodox-Jewish "Messiah", could say that "It is
God's will that we now rebuild the Temple, so we must
first get rid of the Dome of the Rock".

One way they could do this is to go into the
synagogue off the north end of the Wailing Wall (the
western retaining wall of the Temple Mount) and then
break through some gates in the eastern wall of the
synagogue which lead to tunnels which run under the
Dome of the Rock. Some Orthodox Jews could then place
explosives under the Dome of the Rock which could
destroy it. This action, if they do it, will cause
tremendous outrage in all Muslims worldwide, and
could cause a massive Muslim Army to attack and
destroy the tiny state of Israel. This Muslim Army
could mainly consist of a huge Iraqi Army which could
have just finished being fully trained and equipped
by the U.S. to attack and destroy huge Iran instead.

But how could some Orthodox Jews even think of
blowing up the Dome of the Rock if that could possibly
lead to the destruction of the state of Israel?
Because many Orthodox Jews (especially many Ultra-
Orthodox Jews) couldn't care less about the state of
Israel; they see it as a man-made contrivance. What
they want to establish is a Theocracy which is based
solely on the Old Testament, not based on any secular
values such as democracy or freedom of religion.

If some Orthodox Jews blow up the Dome of the Rock,
they could do so (as they could say) "In full
assurance that it is God's will. God wants us to
establish a true state of Israel, one which follows
His Law perfectly, including all of the sacrificial
laws before a rebuilt Temple. So what if the current
state of Israel is destroyed in the process? It is
not of God. Look at how full of sin it is because it
refuses to enforce God's moral Law! God will see to
it that our new godly state of Israel will somehow
survive, no matter what happens to the old ungodly
state of Israel. All we have to do is to be obedient
to God, to do His will, and He will miraculously
protect us and our Holy City of Jerusalem, just as
He miraculously protected Holy Jerusalem in the days
of Hezekiah (2 Kings 19:32-36)".

And this could turn out to be the case, insofar as
the Orthodox Jews could manage to hold onto the
walled Old City of Jerusalem (which contains the
Temple Mount) even as all the rest of Israel is
overrun and destroyed by a massive Muslim Army.

But why wouldn't a massive Muslim Army be able to
take over the Old City of Jerusalem if it were able
to take over all the rest of Israel? One reason
could be that the leader of the Muslim Army could be
a Baathist (in Daniel 11:17, the Hebrew word
translated as "daughter" is "bath"). Baathists don't
care so much about religious stuff; what they are
interested in is bringing about the political
unification of all Arab nations into one powerful
United Arab States, free of all U.S. hegemony.

What could happen is that a Baathist leader of a
massive Muslim Army could use the destruction of
the Dome of the Rock as the perfect casus belli for
an immediate invasion of Israel. But he won't want
to stop at conquering Israel, but will want to sweep
on south and also take Egypt (Daniel 11:15-16), the
leader of which the Baathists see as a stooge of the
United States. So if the Baathist leader comes upon
the Old City of Jerusalem and finds the tops of its
walls ringed with thousands of Orthodox Jews armed
with machine guns, he could think to himself "It will
take too much time to conquer the Old City; it's too
well defended. I need to make it to Egypt before the
U.S. has a chance to shore it up". And so the
Baathist leader could leave a mere token force to
"lay siege" to the walled Old City while he keeps on
going south toward Egypt with the huge bulk of his
Army.

And the Baathist leader may never come back, but
could disappear from the scene after trying to take
one too many countries (Daniel 11:18-19) in North
Africa. And all during the time that the Baathist
leader is busy in North Africa, the Orthodox Jews
could be clearing away the rubble of the Dome of
the Rock, rebuilding their temple, and initiating
the offering of the daily Mosaic sacrifices before
the temple.

After his disappearance, the Baathist leader could
be replaced by a new leader who will only last a
few days before he dies (Daniel 11:20), and who will
then be replaced by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:21).

The first thing that the Antichrist will do upon
being given power over what the Baathist leader has
conquered will be to attack the Old City of
Jerusalem and defeat the Orthodox Jews there,
including their "Messiah" (Daniel 11:22). But then
the Antichrist will "cut" (Daniel 9:25) a peace
treaty with the "Messiah" (Daniel 11:23), permitting
the "Messiah" and his Orthodox-Jewish followers to
continue to offer the daily Mosaic sacrifices before
their rebuilt temple for at least seven more years
(Daniel 9:27a). Once that treaty is signed, it will be
two or three years before the Antichrist breaks the
treaty, stops the sacrifices, and commits the
abomination of desolation (Daniel 9:27b, 11:31), when
he will sit in the temple and proclaim himself God
(2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36).

During the two or three years that the Orthodox Jews
will be allowed to continue their sacrifices before
their rebuilt temple, they could pat each other on
the back and say "We were right to obey God and blow
up the Dome of the Rock and rebuild the Temple. Look
at how God has rewarded us! We are able to fulfill His
Law perfectly, and no man can stop us! Praise God!"

But when the Orthodox Jews have taken over the Old
City of Jerusalem to establish (what they could
call) "A true, godly state of Israel", this will not
be good for those living in the Old City who are
not Orthodox Jews. In order to (as they could say)
"Cleanse Jerusalem to make it as holy as the rebuilt
Temple", the Orthodox Jews could drive out at the
point of machine guns every person living in the Old
City who isn't an Orthodox Jew, such as all
Christians, all Muslims, and all Jews who are non-
Orthodox. Then the Orthodox Jews could burn every
non-kosher thing in the Old City, including even the
most holy site of Christendom, the Church of the Holy
Sepulchre. The Old City could be made completely
"Orthodox-Jewish Only", with no non-Orthodox-Jewish
person or non-kosher thing even allowed within its
gates.

The Orthodox Jews could then declare the
establishment in the Old City of Jerusalem of (what
they could call) "The True State of Israel".

 

[squint]

Jesus Christ will be physically revealed to the world
in the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) at His
second coming (Revelation 1:7, 19:11-21, Matthew
24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

Kind of hard to see somebody in clouds isn't it?

I thought it was to be like lighting from east to west?

While the bodies of believers are real temples
(1 Corinthians 6:19), so was the first-century
temple-building in Jerusalem a real temple (Matthew
21:12-13, 23:21, Luke 1:9), even after the
establishment of the Church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46,
3:1, 22:17), and so is the temple-building in the
third heaven a real temple (Revelation 11:19, 15:8).

Will the real temple please stand up?

Or might that be our Mother, New Jerusalem (Gal. 4:26?)

Likewise, the Orthodox Jews will rebuild a temple-
building in Jerusalem which will be a real temple
(Revelation 11:1-2), before which they will offer
Mosaic daily sacrifices to God.

Possibly. Unfortunately with many of the statements in Rev. there are multiple and abundant potentential meanings. Jesus for example was a sacrifice. A sacrifice does not have to be as it was prior i.e. Moses.

But then, after two
or three years the Antichrist will stop the daily
sacrifices and sit in the temple-building and
proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel
11:31,36).

The anti-Christ is already in the temples...in case you missed it. As to the term "sacrifice" that is up for questioning.

btw you won't see an individual person of mankind as "the" anti-Christ for many specific reasons. Primarily the anti-Christ is an ANTI-Spirit. The 'residence' of that anti-spirit are the HUMAN BODIES of mankind general as Jesus already showed us the last time He was here so, er, uh, your body is already a "carrier" as is mine.

It could be the Orthodox Jews' desire to rebuild a
temple-building in Jerusalem that could eventually
bring about the destruction of the state of Israel,
even before the Antichrist comes on the scene. What
could happen is that some Orthodox Jews could blow up
the Dome of the Rock (one of the holiest sites of
Islam) because it's sitting on the site where the
former Jewish temple-buildings stood in ancient
times. That's why the hill on which the Dome of the
Rock is located is called the "Temple Mount". Some
Orthodox Jews, brought to a state of extreme
excitement by the discovery of the Ark of the
Covenant and/or the appearance of a miracle-working
Orthodox-Jewish "Messiah", could say that "It is
God's will that we now rebuild the Temple, so we must
first get rid of the Dome of the Rock".

I'm not much on the outward analysis of these matters, having watched these events for some decades now from that perspective. We may very well see certain transpirings, but as to their relationship with Rev. again very debateable and perhaps not even remotely related.

I've largely arrived to allegorical understandings of Rev. pretty much across the board.

One way they could do this is to go into the
synagogue off the north end of the Wailing Wall (the
western retaining wall of the Temple Mount) and then
break through some gates in the eastern wall of the
synagogue which lead to tunnels which run under the
Dome of the Rock. Some Orthodox Jews could then place
explosives under the Dome of the Rock which could
destroy it. This action, if they do it, will cause
tremendous outrage in all Muslims worldwide, and
could cause a massive Muslim Army to attack and
destroy the tiny state of Israel. This Muslim Army
could mainly consist of a huge Iraqi Army which could
have just finished being fully trained and equipped
by the U.S. to attack and destroy huge Iran instead.

There is nothing new about Jewish/Arab hatred. It's been going on since Ishmael. Israel has enough modern weaponry to wipe out the entirety of the Middle East today if they wanted to. Why do you think the U.S. is over there? If the U.S. was NOT over there, Israel would have nuked Bagdad to glass long ago. Of course you won't hear too much of that in the paper.

But how could some Orthodox Jews even think of
blowing up the Dome of the Rock if that could possibly
lead to the destruction of the state of Israel?
Because many Orthodox Jews (especially many Ultra-
Orthodox Jews) couldn't care less about the state of
Israel; they see it as a man-made contrivance. What
they want to establish is a Theocracy which is based
solely on the Old Testament, not based on any secular
values such as democracy or freedom of religion.

So? Can you blame them? There are various factions within Israel just as there are in the Middle East, all of course in the midst of various struggles.

If some Orthodox Jews blow up the Dome of the Rock,
they could do so (as they could say) "In full
assurance that it is God's will. God wants us to
establish a true state of Israel, one which follows
His Law perfectly, including all of the sacrificial
laws before a rebuilt Temple. So what if the current
state of Israel is destroyed in the process? It is
not of God. Look at how full of sin it is because it
refuses to enforce God's moral Law!

Oh puhlese. Let's not get anti-semetic. This is an entirely different subject (matters of law)

God will see to
it that our new godly state of Israel will somehow
survive, no matter what happens to the old ungodly
state of Israel. All we have to do is to be obedient
to God, to do His will, and He will miraculously
protect us and our Holy City of Jerusalem, just as
He miraculously protected Holy Jerusalem in the days
of Hezekiah (2 Kings 19:32-36)".

Rev. 11
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

And this could turn out to be the case, insofar as
the Orthodox Jews could manage to hold onto the
walled Old City of Jerusalem (which contains the
Temple Mount) even as all the rest of Israel is
overrun and destroyed by a massive Muslim Army.

In todays world, a few fingers can wipe out the entire planet. Who needs an army?

But why wouldn't a massive Muslim Army be able to
take over the Old City of Jerusalem if it were able
to take over all the rest of Israel? One reason
could be that the leader of the Muslim Army could be
a Baathist (in Daniel 11:17, the Hebrew word
translated as "daughter" is "bath"). Baathists don't
care so much about religious stuff; what they are
interested in is bringing about the political
unification of all Arab nations into one powerful
United Arab States, free of all U.S. hegemony.

Well, there are Israel and Arabian nations...and behind these there is still the U.S. and Russia respectively. Needless to say it's a hotbed of political tensions.

What could happen is that a Baathist leader of a
massive Muslim Army could use the destruction of
the Dome of the Rock as the perfect casus belli for
an immediate invasion of Israel. But he won't want
to stop at conquering Israel, but will want to sweep
on south and also take Egypt (Daniel 11:15-16), the
leader of which the Baathists see as a stooge of the
United States. So if the Baathist leader comes upon
the Old City of Jerusalem and finds the tops of its
walls ringed with thousands of Orthodox Jews armed
with machine guns, he could think to himself "It will
take too much time to conquer the Old City; it's too
well defended. I need to make it to Egypt before the
U.S. has a chance to shore it up". And so the
Baathist leader could leave a mere token force to
"lay siege" to the walled Old City while he keeps on
going south toward Egypt with the huge bulk of his
Army.

A ridiculous premise really. War games are much quicker in todays world and there is nearly a zero chance that any current country other than Iran could stage such a thing and the first one that flinches in Israel's direction IS going to for no uncertain fact TAKE A HIT from Israel immediately.

And the Baathist leader may never come back, but
could disappear from the scene after trying to take
one too many countries (Daniel 11:18-19) in North
Africa. And all during the time that the Baathist
leader is busy in North Africa, the Orthodox Jews
could be clearing away the rubble of the Dome of
the Rock, rebuilding their temple, and initiating
the offering of the daily Mosaic sacrifices before
the temple.

In understanding of Rev. we really should take into account that there are nations and powers in the scriptures that CANNOT BE SEEN. So all this mucky muck about this country or that country or this person or that person is to me just false fodder as scripture is far more complicated than just THAT which we see with our limited vision.

Jesus often dealt with a world and powers therein that we JUST DO NOT SEE with our eyes. Get it?

After his disappearance, the Baathist leader could
be replaced by a new leader who will only last a
few days before he dies (Daniel 11:20), and who will
then be replaced by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:21).

The first thing that the Antichrist will do upon
being given power over what the Baathist leader has
conquered will be to attack the Old City of
Jerusalem and defeat the Orthodox Jews there,
including their "Messiah" (Daniel 11:22). But then
the Antichrist will "cut" (Daniel 9:25) a peace
treaty with the "Messiah" (Daniel 11:23), permitting
the "Messiah" and his Orthodox-Jewish followers to
continue to offer the daily Mosaic sacrifices before
their rebuilt temple for at least seven more years
(Daniel 9:27a). Once that treaty is signed, it will be
two or three years before the Antichrist breaks the
treaty, stops the sacrifices, and commits the
abomination of desolation (Daniel 9:27b, 11:31), when
he will sit in the temple and proclaim himself God
(2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36).

Since you think that the "anti-Christ" will be "Jewish" let me just say a few things about Israel and about mankind in general.

All of Israel were taught by scriptures to be GOD'S CHILDREN. See Deut. 14:1 or Psalm 82:6 for examples of THIS SCRIPTURAL FACT.

In the light of this FACT it is beyond unlikely that any of God's CHILDREN are going to be "THE" anti-Christ. No, make that IMPOSSIBLE.

God advised Peter in Acts 10 to CALL NO MAN common or unclean. Now one would THINK that being "THE" anti-Christ would be pretty unclean eh? Jude 3:2 advises us to speak EVIL of NO MAN.

We are "also" supposed to LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS as ourselves. Presumably 'THE' anti-christ IF he is a PERSON OF MANKIND is still "our neighbor" eh?

If you want to see the real anti-christ WHY don't you look more in the direction of THE DEVIL and his messengers? Are THEY not the far more LIKELY SUSPECTS in this particular DRAMA???

Now if we follow the little bouncing ball we WILL see that the 'residence' of THE DEVIL and his messengers is clearly WITH mankind.

And in fact there doesn't seem to be an exception to this fact except for JESUS as "he who commits sin is OF THE DEVIL" according to 1 John 3:8.

Anyway...for what it's worth I am NOT looking for an individual human being as "the" anti-Christ in light of the obvious facts. We "all" have a piece of that action right in our own respective FLESH.

During the two or three years that the Orthodox Jews
will be allowed to continue their sacrifices before
their rebuilt temple, they could pat each other on
the back and say "We were right to obey God and blow
up the Dome of the Rock and rebuild the Temple. Look
at how God has rewarded us! We are able to fulfill His
Law perfectly, and no man can stop us! Praise God!"

You seem to be a little heavy on the speculation, and it also may appear you are a little more than biased against Israel in these matters.

But when the Orthodox Jews have taken over the Old
City of Jerusalem to establish (what they could
call) "A true, godly state of Israel", this will not
be good for those living in the Old City who are
not Orthodox Jews. In order to (as they could say)
"Cleanse Jerusalem to make it as holy as the rebuilt
Temple", the Orthodox Jews could drive out at the
point of machine guns every person living in the Old
City who isn't an Orthodox Jew, such as all
Christians, all Muslims, and all Jews who are non-
Orthodox. Then the Orthodox Jews could burn every
non-kosher thing in the Old City, including even the
most holy site of Christendom, the Church of the Holy
Sepulchre. The Old City could be made completely
"Orthodox-Jewish Only", with no non-Orthodox-Jewish
person or non-kosher thing even allowed within its
gates.

The Orthodox Jews could then declare the
establishment in the Old City of Jerusalem of (what
they could call) "The True State of Israel".

Woulda coulda's across the board.

I think it's a little more interesting than the typical politics O' the day.

enjoy!

squint

 

[walt2000]

well walt2000, i checked out your chart...

many people here have charts....

you have not shown any reason to even take you seriously...



over half of Revelation is quotes from OT prophets....

Exactly,,,That is my point, thats what makes it right.You just proved a point I hadn't noticed.Ya sure.
If it didn't Quote Old Testament prophets ,It would make it wrong.
and that is why ,you can't add or take away from the book of Revelations.

Remember we didn't use any other books, or change the order ,or take away ,the words from the book of Revelations, to achieve the conclusion.Thanks for proving my point .
And many people have charts, You are right there to, but none of them show that if you use Revelations only ,there is structure to the book. It explains itself seven times to the seven Church's .Right on.You have a good eye .
And for taking me seriously,You can't see the repetition to the words of the book there is two Babylon has fallen,on the same horizontal line.
The seals line up in order ,Trumpets line up in order,and the vials line up in order.
Come out my people ,lines up with come on my people.
Two earth quakes line up,two great rivers line up horizontally.Starts with a white horse ,and ends with a white horse,all line up in different Thunders .The victory all lines up at the top.
Man is the sixth Thunder vertically,and sixth horizontal line.If you can't see these you are trying not to.
and many more things can be found.look at the chart vertically and horizontally.All the scripture is consecutive and in order and not placed here and there to make a point. look closer.

walt2000

 

[walt2000]

squint----Bible2
You have the history ,but you go against Revelation 22/18-19.And don't take me wrong ,but read Rev.22.18-19.
walt2000

 

[walt2000]

things which arehttp://christianforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117180&d=1221074721

 

[walt2000]

Revelations Of Seven Thunders Explaining Flash Card
Those lines and ovals ,as you call them are similaritys between the thunders.And the area around the Thunders are really self explanatory.

GET MY CHART AND LOOK.

7 the top horizontal line is Christ's victory,in yellow.
6 next horizontal line is in Red ,The no. of Man.
5 line next is Christ's protection,souls protected,Come up my people.Word
4 line from the top is the no. of Earth.
3 line is the trinity no.Father(God),Son Of (God),Holy spirit, Word of (God)
2 this line is the union With (God)
1 is the no. of unity,(God)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
7 promises to the church's on the Earth ,things Thu seen,with (God)

The first four 1,2,3,4, are the four spirits that roam the Earth.

7 th.Thunder vertically is mystery Babylon White horse winner on Earth.
6 th. Thunder vertically is man.on Earth
5.th. Thunder vertically is Babylon Fallen Preaching to the Earth.

4.th. Thunder vertically is The word on the Earth.
3 rd. Thunder vertically is witnesses on Earth.
2 nd. Thunder vertically is union with Christ on Earth.
1 st. Thunder vertically is White horse ,winner with Christ on Earth.

5,6,7 is the consequences of the word .The trinity on Earth

even a
Fundamentalist Should see that lay ed out.To not see that, is a disservice,two the author.
look how the victory lines up at the top.
look how the winepress's line up ,next down.
look at Earth Quakes and the Great river line up horizontally.
look at the promised White clothed protection line up horizontally.
look how come up my people lines up with come out my people.
look how the seals,1,2,3,4,5,6,7 line up with the trumpets,and vials line up with each other.
look how wormwood on water,blood on water,line up
look how burning mountain in sea ,and blood on sea ,line up.
look how the two Babylons line up with each other.
look how The Thunders start with a White Horse,and end with a White horse .

And that is just ten item's,there are gemartria connections yet to them all ..

walt2000
things which are Seven Thunders

 

[walt2000]

zeke37 your not looking.walt2000

 

[walt2000]

I am not asking you to except this ,just add this to what you got,or leave it ,it is your choice.It is not meant for everybody.walt2000

 

[zeke37]

confusing at first glance...perhaps you could explain the charts....

 

[walt2000]

confusing at first glance...perhaps you could explain the charts....

Think of a Seven dimentional happenings all telling the same story ,of one event.
Or you could think of it as seven diffrent relationships ,with the church ,of one event.
Read my posts .
I have been at this for fourty years .So if you don't everything it in 15 minutes is ok. Study it like you would a cross word puzzel . Look in to gematria google my name, and see if you can get around me being banned because the theory I put forth do's not line up with their way of thinking.
They know I am right ,and they can't prove me wrong .So they ban me.
That is why I know I am right ,Because the other religions can't prove me wrong.walt2000

 

[walt2000]

confusing at first glance...perhaps you could explain the charts....

Study it like a crossword puzzle, horizontal and vertically.
Vertically gives you the stories.
Horizontally gives you the events, in the story.read my posts.
google my name .If you do not get it in 15 minutes it is OK. I have been at it forty Years. And I am still learning.walt2000

 

[Bible2]

squint posted in message #64:

"Originally Posted by Bible2
Jesus Christ will be physically revealed to the world
in the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) at His
second coming (Revelation 1:7, 19:11-21, Matthew
24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)."

Kind of hard to see somebody in clouds isn't it?

At His second-coming descent from the third heaven
(1 Thessalonians 4:16, Acts 3:20-21), while the sky
(the first heaven) will be filled with clouds, these
clouds will part to reveal Jesus riding on a white
horse (Revelation 19:11-21). Everyone will see Him
(Revelation 1:7, Mark 13:26, Matthew 24:30b).

Jesus' second-coming descent from the clouds of the
sky to set His feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah
14:3-4) will be just as literal and physical as His
first-coming ascension into a cloud of the sky from
the Mount of Olives (Acts 1:9-12).

squint posted in message #64:

I thought it was to be like lighting from east to
west?

Yes, Jesus' second coming will be just as visible to
people as the lightning that shines from east to west
(Matthew 24:27). So we aren't to be fooled by any
future false Christs who won't come as the scriptures
require (Matthew 24:23-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17,
Revelation 19:11-21).

squint posted in message #64:

"[Originally Posted by Bible2]
While the bodies of believers are real temples
(1 Corinthians 6:19), so was the first-century
temple-building in Jerusalem a real temple (Matthew
21:12-13, 23:21, Luke 1:9), even after the
establishment of the Church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46,
3:1, 22:17), and so is the temple-building in the
third heaven a real temple (Revelation 11:19, 15:8)."

Will the real temple please stand up?

The scriptures referenced above show that there is
more than one real temple.

squint posted in message #64:

Or might that be our Mother, New Jerusalem
(Gal. 4:26?)

There is no temple in the literal, heavenly city of
New Jerusalem insofar as only God the Father and
Jesus themselves are its temple (Revelation 21:22).

squint posted in message #64:

"[Originally Posted by Bible2]
Likewise, the Orthodox Jews will rebuild a temple-
building in Jerusalem which will be a real temple
(Revelation 11:1-2), before which they will offer
Mosaic daily sacrifices to God."

Possibly. Unfortunately with many of the statements
in Rev. there are multiple and abundant potentential
meanings. Jesus for example was a sacrifice. A
sacrifice does not have to be as it was prior i.e.
Moses.

It's the book of Daniel that refers to the literal,
daily, continual, morning-and-evening Mosaic animal
sacrifices (Daniel 8:11-13, 9:27, 11:31, 12:11, cf.
Exodus 29:38-42) which the Orthodox Jews will offer
before a rebuilt temple-building in Jerusalem, before
the Antichrist stops those sacrifices and sits in the
temple-building proclaiming himself God (Daniel
11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

squint posted in message #64:

The anti-Christ is already in the temples...in case
you missed it.

The Antichrist will sit in a single temple-building
(2 Thessalonians 2:4), which hasn't been built yet.

squint posted in message #64:

btw you won't see an individual person of mankind as
"the" anti-Christ for many specific reasons.

The Antichrist (also called the man of sin, the son
of perdition, the beast) will be an individual person
of mankind (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Revelation 16:13),
the gematrial number of whose name (Revelation
13:17b, 15:2b) will add up to 666 (Revelation 13:18).
That is, the gematrial numerical values of the letters
in his name will total up to 666.

In ancient times, in the Hebrew and Greek alphabets,
the gematrial numerical values of the letters were as
follows: the first nine letters in the alphabets were
1 through 9, the next nine letters were 10 through 90,
and the rest of the letters were 100, 200, 300, etc.
until the end of the alphabets.

The gematrial numerical values of the letters in
the name of the Antichrist could total up to 666
applying this ancient system of gematrial numerical
values to our modern Latin alphabet, as follows:

A=1
B=2
C=3
D=4
E=5
F=6
G=7
H=8
I=9
J=10
K=20
L=30
M=40
N=50
O=60
P=70
Q=80
R=90
S=100
T=200
U=300
V=400
W=500
X=600
Y=700
Z=800

Just for a short and easy example (not implying that
this has to be the name of the Antichrist), the name
"FOX" has a gematrial numerical value of 666, because
F=6, O=60, and X=600, adding up to 666.

 

[Bible2]

squint posted in message #64:

Primarily the anti-Christ is an ANTI-Spirit.

There is an antichrist spirit, which denies that
Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and which denies
that Jesus Himself is the Christ (1 John 2:22), so
that anyone who denies these things is an antichrist
(1 John 2:18; 2 John 1:7). But this does not take
away from the fact that the Antichrist will come
(1 John 2:18a; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and rule
the earth for 42 months (Revelation 13:5-10) and
have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation
19:20) who by Luciferian miracles (2 Thessalonians
2:9) will deceive the world into worshipping an image
of the Antichrist and taking his mark on their hand
or forehead (Revelation 13:13-18).

squint posted in message #64:

I've largely arrived to allegorical understandings of
Rev. pretty much across the board.

Almost all of Revelation can be understood literally,
and those parts of Revelation that are only symbolic
are usually subsequently explained by Revelation
itself (e.g. Revelation 1:20, 17:9-12).

squint posted in message #64:

Israel has enough modern weaponry to wipe out the
entirety of the Middle East today if they wanted to.
Why do you think the U.S. is over there? If the U.S.
was NOT over there, Israel would have nuked Bagdad
to glass long ago.

Israel could very well nuke not only Baghdad, but
Damascus, Tehran and other major cities of Iraq,
Syria, and Iran, if a massive Iraqi Army (built up,
trained, and equipped by the U.S. to conquer huge
Iran), accompanied by the Syrian Army and Iranian
missiles, makes an all-out attack on tiny Israel as
payback for some Orthodox Jews blowing up the Dome
of the Rock.

That is, what could happen is a case of Mutual
Assured Destruction, where a massive Iraqi Army will
overrun and destroy the tiny territory of Israel, as
Israel, in revenge, will be sending nuclear bombers
to destroy the major cities of Iraq.

This nuclear war could be the war which will begin
the tribulation (Revelation 6:4) and, with its
aftermath of famine and epidemics, will eventually
result in the death of one-fourth of the world
(Revelation 6:8).

The nuclear stockpile of Israel could the "great
sword" of Revelation 6:4. Israel's destruction of
the major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran could
result in the deaths of tens of millions of people,
and the radioactive fallout could fall on
Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, and Southeast Asia,
ruining crop fields and making people sick so that
eventually hundreds of millions of people could die
from the use of the nuclear weapons.

squint posted in message #64:

"[Originally Posted by Bible2]
But how could some Orthodox Jews even think of
blowing up the Dome of the Rock if that could possibly
lead to the destruction of the state of Israel?
Because many Orthodox Jews (especially many Ultra-
Orthodox Jews) couldn't care less about the state of
Israel; they see it as a man-made contrivance. What
they want to establish is a Theocracy which is based
solely on the Old Testament, not based on any secular
values such as democracy or freedom of religion."

So? Can you blame them?

When fallible humans try to establish Theocracies,
of no matter what religion, there's no assurance that
it will be a good thing. Better to wait for the
infallible Jesus to return from heaven to establish
His Millennial Theocracy (Zechariah 14:9-21,
Revelation 20:4-6).

squint posted in message #64:

"[Originally Posted by Bible2]
If some Orthodox Jews blow up the Dome of the Rock,
they could do so (as they could say) "In full
assurance that it is God's will. God wants us to
establish a true state of Israel, one which follows
His Law perfectly, including all of the sacrificial
laws before a rebuilt Temple. So what if the current
state of Israel is destroyed in the process? It is
not of God. Look at how full of sin it is because it
refuses to enforce God's moral Law!"

Oh puhlese. Let's not get anti-semetic. This is an
entirely different subject (matters of law)

Note that what was said was a hypothetical quote from
Orthodox Jews themselves, and they weren't being Anti-
Semitic, as they were only condemning the secular
state of Israel as being ungodly for not enforcing the
Old Testament Law of God. They weren't saying that all
Jews are evil just because they are Jews.

squint posted in message #64:

"[Originally Posted by Bible2]
God will see to it that our new godly state of
Israel will somehow survive, no matter what happens
to the old ungodly state of Israel. All we have to
do is to be obedient to God, to do His will, and He
will miraculously protect us and our Holy City of
Jerusalem, just as He miraculously protected Holy
Jerusalem in the days of Hezekiah (2 Kings 19:32-36)".

Rev. 11
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony,
the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit
shall make war against them, and shall overcome them,
and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of
the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom
and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Again, it was in a hypothetical quote from Orthodox
Jews that earthly Jerusalem was called holy, which
it is called even in some scriptures referring to
end-time earthly Jerusalem (e.g. Daniel 11:45, Joel
2:1), just as the Old Covenant is still holy in
itself (Romans 7:12).

Earthly Jerusalem is unholy insofar as it represents
those unbelieving Jews (such as the Orthodox Jews)
who reject the New Covenant Gospel of Jesus and want
to stay in bondage to the Old Covenant law (Galatians
4:24-26, 5:1,4), even though God has abolished the
continued application of that law to men (Hebrews
7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15).

 

[Bible2]

squint posted in message #64:

"[Originally Posted by Bible2]
And this could turn out to be the case, insofar as the Orthodox Jews could manage to hold onto the walled Old City of Jerusalem (which contains the Temple Mount) even as all the rest of Israel is overrun and destroyed by a massive Muslim Army."

In todays world, a few fingers can wipe out the entire planet. Who needs an army?

Israel (and Egypt) could be defeated by a massive army (Daniel 11:13-16) before the Antichrist arises on the world scene (Daniel 11:21).

squint posted in message #64:

War games are much quicker in todays world and there is nearly a zero chance that any current country other than Iran could stage such a thing and the first one that flinches in Israel's direction IS going to for no uncertain fact TAKE A HIT from Israel immediately.

Keyword "current". By some date in the future, the U.S. could have equipped Iraq with an army large enough, with weapons sophisticated enough, to take out huge Iran. This army could then not invade Iran, but turn and take out tiny Israel instead.

The Israeli Air Force could be unable to hit enough of the massive Iraqi invading force to prevent the tiny territory of Israel from being overrun. For between Iraq and Israel is basically flat desert across which massive numbers of rapid-fire, rapidly-moving tracked howitzers could stream west toward Israel in wide and staggered formations which Israel's Air Force could have difficulty taking out quickly. And interspersed liberally among the howitzers could be large numbers of highly mobile SAM units which could manage to take out most of Israel's Air Force as it's attacking the howitzers.

Any Iraqi force configuration which the U.S. will make sure is capable of overcoming all of Iran's air and surface defenses and overunning Iran's relatively huge territory could have no problem with overcoming Israel's air and surface defenses at least to the point of being able to overrun the tiny territory of Israel.

Add to a massive Iraqi Army the Syrian Army and the chaos of huge numbers of Syrian and Iranian missiles, some possibly equipped with nerve agents or simpler chemical weapons, raining down on Israel's air bases and major cities, as well as Hezbollah missiles and armed forces streaming in from Lebanon, and hordes of screaming, angry, armed Muslim civilians swarming over every mile of Israel's borders with Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt, and the Israeli Defense Forces could just become too overwhelmed to defend Israel from enough of this all-out onslaught to prevent Israel's total defeat and occupation. Israel's only solace could be to nuke many of the major cities of its attackers in revenge.

squint posted in message #64:

"[Originally Posted by Bible2]
The first thing that the Antichrist will do upon being given power over what the Baathist leader has conquered will be to attack the Old City of Jerusalem and defeat the Orthodox Jews there, including their "Messiah" (Daniel 11:22). But then the Antichrist will "cut" (Daniel 9:25) a peace treaty with the "Messiah" (Daniel 11:23), permitting the "Messiah" and his Orthodox-Jewish followers to continue to offer the daily Mosaic sacrifices before their rebuilt temple for at least seven more years (Daniel 9:27a). Once that treaty is signed, it will be two or three years before the Antichrist breaks the treaty, stops the sacrifices, and commits the abomination of desolation (Daniel 9:27b, 11:31), when he will sit in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36)."

Since you think that the "anti-Christ" will be "Jewish" let me just say a few things about Israel and about mankind in general.

Note that it wasn't said that the Antichrist will be Jewish. He could be a Druze Arab living in Tyre, Lebanon. At the same time, he could have a little Jewish blood in him, from the tribe of Dan (Genesis 49:17), so that the tribe of Dan would be disqualified on account of him from being included in the endtimes' 12 tribes of spiritual Israel (Revelation 7:4-8).

squint posted in message #64:

All of Israel were taught by scriptures to be GOD'S CHILDREN.

Some unbelieving Jews are not God's children (John 8:37-47).

squint posted in message #64:

If you want to see the real anti-christ WHY don't you look more in the direction of THE DEVIL and his messengers?

The man who is the Antichrist (the beast) and the devil (the dragon, Lucifer) are two different entities (Revelation 13:4, 16:13, 20:10).

 

[walt2000]

At His second-coming descent from the third heaven
(1 Thessalonians 4:16, Acts 3:20-21), while the sky
(the first heaven) will be filled with clouds, these
clouds will part to reveal Jesus riding on a white
horse (Revelation 19:11-21). Everyone will see Him
(Revelation 1:7, Mark 13:26, Matthew 24:30b).

Jesus' second-coming descent from the clouds of the
sky to set His feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah
14:3-4) will be just as literal and physical as His
first-coming ascension into a cloud of the sky from
the Mount of Olives (Acts 1:9-12).



Yes, Jesus' second coming will be just as visible to
people as the lightning that shines from east to west
(Matthew 24:27). So we aren't to be fooled by any
future false Christs who won't come as the scriptures
require (Matthew 24:23-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17,
Revelation 19:11-21).



The scriptures referenced above show that there is
more than one real temple.



There is no temple in the literal, heavenly city of
New Jerusalem insofar as only God the Father and
Jesus themselves are its temple (Revelation 21:22).



It's the book of Daniel that refers to the literal,
daily, continual, morning-and-evening Mosaic animal
sacrifices (Daniel 8:11-13, 9:27, 11:31, 12:11, cf.
Exodus 29:38-42) which the Orthodox Jews will offer
before a rebuilt temple-building in Jerusalem, before
the Antichrist stops those sacrifices and sits in the
temple-building proclaiming himself God (Daniel
11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).



The Antichrist will sit in a single temple-building
(2 Thessalonians 2:4), which hasn't been built yet.



The Antichrist (also called the man of sin, the son
of perdition, the beast) will be an individual person
of mankind (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Revelation 16:13),
the gematrial number of whose name (Revelation
13:17b, 15:2b) will add up to 666 (Revelation 13:18).
That is, the gematrial numerical values of the letters
in his name will total up to 666.

In ancient times, in the Hebrew and Greek alphabets,
the gematrial numerical values of the letters were as
follows: the first nine letters in the alphabets were
1 through 9, the next nine letters were 10 through 90,
and the rest of the letters were 100, 200, 300, etc.
until the end of the alphabets.

The gematrial numerical values of the letters in
the name of the Antichrist could total up to 666
applying this ancient system of gematrial numerical
values to our modern Latin alphabet, as follows:

A=1
B=2
C=3
D=4
E=5
F=6
G=7
H=8
I=9
J=10
K=20
L=30
M=40
N=50
O=60
P=70
Q=80
R=90
S=100
T=200
U=300
V=400
W=500
X=600
Y=700
Z=800

Just for a short and easy example (not implying that
this has to be the name of the Antichrist), the name
"FOX" has a gematrial numerical value of 666, because
F=6, O=60, and X=600, adding up to 666.

Also I was also thinking of ,

THE SIGNIFICANCE ON NUMBERS IN SCRIPTURE.
NUMBERS IN SCRIPTURE
NUMBERS IN THE BIBLE
GOD COUNTS
THEN I WILL TELL YOU HOW TO USE THEM
walt2000

 

[walt2000]

The only no. you will actually need is ,

1= unity for God
2= unity with Christ
3= the trinity no. 666,and 777,and 888.
4= the Earth no.
5= the prophetic no. prophecy.
6= the no. of man.
7= the no. of projection.
8= a new beginning.
9= a no.related to six 3x3=9
10= perfection of divine order.
11= disorder
12= perfection of government no. of the church.
13= a ill omen ,hostility,rebellion,apostasy,defection,corruption

there is a lot more no. but they are not of much use in Revelations
walt2000

 

[walt2000]

[SIZE=+2]No.[/SIZE][SIZE=+2]Meaning[/SIZE]1Unity; New beginnings2Union; Division; Wittnessing3 Divine completeness and perfection4Creation; The world; Creative works5 Grace; God's goodness; Pentatuech (first five books)6Weakness of man; Manifestation of sin ; Evils of Satan 7Resurrection; Spiritual completeness; Fathers perfection8New birth; New beginnings 9Fruit of the spirit; Divine completeness from the Father 10Testimony; Law and responsiblity 11Disorder and judgement 12Governmental perfection 13Apostacy; depravity and rebellion 14Deliverance; Salvation15Rest16Love 17Victory 18 Bondage 19 Faith 20 Redemption 21 Exceeding sinfulness of sin 22 Light 23 Death 24 The Priesthood 25 Repentance; The forgiveness of sins 26 The Gospel of Christ 27 Preaching of the Gospel 28 Eternal life 29 Departure 30 Blood of Christ; Dedication 31 Offspring 32 Covenant 33 Promise 34 Naming of a son 35 Hope 36 Enemy 37 The word of our Father 38 Slavery 39 Disease 40 Trials; Probation; Testings 42 Israel's opression; First advent 44 Judgement of the World 45 Preservation 50 Holy Spirit; Pentacost 60 Pride 66 Idol worship 70 Punishment and restoration of Israel; Universality 100 Election; Children of the promise 119 Spiritual perfection and victory 7*17=119 120 Divine period of probation 144 The Spirit guided life 200 Insufficiency 600 Warfare 666 Antichrist 777 Christ 888 Holy Spirit; The sum of Tree of Life 1000 Divine completeness and Fathers glory 4000 Salvation of the world through the blood of the Lamb ( Those who chose between Christ and Antichrist) 6000 Deception of Antichrist; Second advent 7000 Final judgement; Zadok 144,000 Those numbered of Isreal


Just an example of what is in the bible.we don't use them all.walt2000

 

[zeke37]

well, we agree on the numerology walt, and most do not agree with me...