What is wrong with this statement?

Light of the East

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This, from another thread here:

Jesus did not become sin. Jesus was a sin offering to merit grace which is then given through the sacraments. The notion that Jesus became sin is simply a grave error. The imputation of Christ's righteousness is also an error not taught in the scriptures.

There's something not right in this statement, but I can't quite get my head around what it is.

A little help, please?
 

Emli

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This, from another thread here:

Jesus did not become sin. Jesus was a sin offering to merit grace which is then given through the sacraments. The notion that Jesus became sin is simply a grave error. The imputation of Christ's righteousness is also an error not taught in the scriptures.

There's something not right in this statement, but I can't quite get my head around what it is.

A little help, please?

All of it is completely wrong:

2 Corinthians 5:21
"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

And we receive grace through faith, not through sacraments.

Ephesians 2:8
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--"

Trust in the Word, brother! Not in man.
 
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Light of the East

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All of it is completely wrong:

2 Corinthians 5:21
"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

And we receive grace through faith, not through sacraments.

Ephesians 2:8
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--"

Trust in the Word, brother! Not in man.

While I appreciate your eagerness to reply, this being an Orthodox forum, I was looking for an Orthodox answer.
 
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FireDragon76

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I don't think Jesus literally became sin or a sinner, either. No traditional Protestant believes that.

You might want to look up David Bentley Hart writing about Anselm of Canterbury's Cur Deus Homo. Hes is the most sympathetic from the Orthodox perspective. It really has to do with the medieval idea of honor and satisfaction, which was not about justice in the modern sense (since anybody could theoretically provide satisfaction for the honor debt).

This article might also interest you, since it deals with patristic sources that might back up Anselm's perspective: http://www.anselm.edu/Documents/Institute for Saint Anselm Studies/Abstracts/4.5.3.2i_21Cohen.pdf
 
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Jack Isaacks

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All of it is completely wrong:

2 Corinthians 5:21
"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

And we receive grace through faith, not through sacraments.

Ephesians 2:8
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--"

Trust in the Word, brother! Not in man.

The Sacraments--instituted by Christ Himself--are simply grace, faith, and prophecy made so our physical senses can participate in them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
 
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Emli

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The Sacraments--instituted by Christ Himself--are simply grace, faith, and prophecy made so our physical senses can participate in them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Sure, but they aren't required.
 
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Emli

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While I appreciate your eagerness to reply, this being an Orthodox forum, I was looking for an Orthodox answer.

Alright.
Factions should not divide the body of Christ, and Truth should stand by itself.
I'll leave with that statement.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Alright.
Factions should not divide the body of Christ, and Truth should stand by itself.
I'll leave with that statement.

It's not about factions, it's about purposes for various forums. This is the Eastern Orthodox forum, and LOTE asked to find the Orthodox perspective on that statement.

There's a non-denominational forum too, a Lutheran, a Baptist, a Methodist, etc. For talking about distinctives and fellowship without argument.

We also have General Theology, where such a question could be answered by any and all Christian perspectives.

I hope you are not offended. It is how Christian forums works, and one of the ways we help people to have the kinds of discussion they are interested in, whatever that might be.

Peace to you.
 
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~Anastasia~

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This, from another thread here:

Jesus did not become sin. Jesus was a sin offering to merit grace which is then given through the sacraments. The notion that Jesus became sin is simply a grave error. The imputation of Christ's righteousness is also an error not taught in the scriptures.

There's something not right in this statement, but I can't quite get my head around what it is.

A little help, please?


This I believe would have to be created grace, for one. We believe grace is the energy of God Himself. We cannot "merit" grace. And I suspect this implies grace measured out, as well. We don't do this.

God IMPUTES righteousness, but there is no such thing as "imputed righteousness" as a "thing". All of this language seems to bring to mind the idea that there is some kind of divine book of accounts, by which we each owe some set amount, and must withdraw or have credited to us a certain amount of credit from Christ's account. We ... just don't do that.
 
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ArmyMatt

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This, from another thread here:

Jesus did not become sin. Jesus was a sin offering to merit grace which is then given through the sacraments. The notion that Jesus became sin is simply a grave error. The imputation of Christ's righteousness is also an error not taught in the scriptures.

There's something not right in this statement, but I can't quite get my head around what it is.

A little help, please?

I think we would say He did become sin and a curse (see Fr Hopko's podcast on AFR called the Names of Jesus), because He took all sin on on the Cross, and cursed is every one hung from a tree according to the law. But since He is who He is, sin was obliterated. He was a sin offering, but that is not all He was.
 
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Light of the East

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I think we would say He did become sin and a curse (see Fr Hopko's podcast on AFR called the Names of Jesus), because He took all sin on on the Cross, and cursed is every one hung from a tree according to the law. But since He is who He is, sin was obliterated. He was a sin offering, but that is not all He was.

Isn't there a Tropar that says something to the effect that "hades opened its mouth to swallow Christ and in doing so swallowed its own death?" Something along that line - that death received Christ and found Christ to be its destruction.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Isn't there a Tropar that says something to the effect that "hades opened its mouth to swallow Christ and in doing so swallowed its own death?" Something along that line - that death received Christ and found Christ to be its destruction.

that's the gist of St John's Pascal homily
 
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Jack Isaacks

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Sure, but they aren't required.

Jesus commanded baptism.

Jesus said of the Supper, "Do this!"

From where in hell (and I'm not being profane) did you get the idea that Christ's commandments are not required?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
 
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Emli

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Jesus commanded baptism.

Jesus said of the Supper, "Do this!"

From where in hell (and I'm not being profane) did you get the idea that Christ's commandments are not required?

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I agree, He did command it, but that does not mean that it's required for salvation. It just means that we are expected to do them after we are saved, just like with all of the rest of the commandments. Not all believers will have the opportunity to do so. Does that mean that they aren't saved? God forbid! If and when He leads us to do them, we do them, but we are definitely saved either way.
I haven't been baptized, and not once have I gone to church (can't where I live, not yet) and yet, God has given me the Holy Spirit, revealed Himself to me, and answers all my prayers.
 
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ArmyMatt

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It just means that we are expected to do them after we are saved, just like with all of the rest of the commandments.

I don't think Christ ever actually says this. actually, He says the opposite.

Not all believers will have the opportunity to do so. Does that mean that they aren't saved? God forbid!

well, something like that is known to God. certainly He can save whoever He wants.

If and when He leads us to do them, we do them, but we are definitely saved either way.

again, this is not in Scripture.

I haven't been baptized, and not once have I gone to church (can't where I live, not yet) and yet, God has given me the Holy Spirit, revealed Himself to me, and answers all my prayers.

which is also not the Biblical model. nowhere in Scripture do you actually find this either.
 
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Emli

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I don't think Christ ever actually says this. actually, He says the opposite.



well, something like that is known to God. certainly He can save whoever He wants.



again, this is not in Scripture.



which is also not the Biblical model. nowhere in Scripture do you actually find this either.
Have you read the Gospel of John?
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Firedragon is right about reading Anselm of Canterbury's Cur Deus Homo. It plays a huge role in western theology as various atonement theories were developed. VERY simplistically, the west has tended towards a view of Adam's sin offended an infinite Being. In order to make things right, an infinite Being was needed to make satisfaction through sacrifice. So a couple of mainly western atonement theories revolve around that God is infinite and since death is the penalty, an infinite Being needed to die to satisfy Him. Thus we see "merits" being a main way of discussing salvation, which becomes increasing important as the doctrine of purgatory develops and things get messy as Luther challenges indulgences.

Eastern theology doesnt approach atonement in this manner. Gregory of Naziansus says in his second Paschal oration, that the ransom is not to the devil nor God, but death was vanquished:

Now we are to examine another fact and dogma, neglected by most people, but in my judgment well worth enquiring into. To Whom was that Blood offered that was shed for us, and why was It shed? I mean the precious and famous Blood of our God and High priest and Sacrifice. We were detained in bondage by the Evil One, sold under sin, and receiving pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask to whom was this offered, and for what cause? If to the Evil One, fie upon the outrage! If the robber receives ransom, not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and has such an illustrious payment for his tyranny, a payment for whose sake it would have been right for him to have left us alone altogether. But if to the Father, I ask first, how? For it was not by Him that we were being oppressed; and next, On what principle did the Blood of His Only begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac, when he was being offered by his Father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in the place of the human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself, and overcome the tyrant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things? So much we have said of Christ; the greater part of what we might say shall be reverenced with silence. But that brazen serpent was hung up as a remedy for the biting serpents, not as a type of Him that suffered for us, but as a contrast; and it saved those that looked upon it, not because they believed it to live, but because it was killed, and killed with it the powers that were subject to it, being destroyed as it deserved. And what is the fitting epitaph for it from us? “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” Thou art overthrown by the Cross; thou art slain by Him who is the Giver of life; thou art without breath, dead, without motion, even though thou keepest the form of a serpent lifted up on high on a pole.
 
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