What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

Romans 8 would be an example of my understanding. . .predestined to the outcome of an event; i.e., to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, which seems to be pretty much the same thing as elected (chosen) for salvation, the outcome of which is the same.

Then why do you fuss with me over predestination? Force of habit?

 

[misput]

What you, Rick and Clare are failing to understand when I say collective is when the scripture uses the terms us,we, them, etc. it is referring to all believers, a group who by Gods predestined choice are fulfilling His purpose. this is, in my mind, a very different thing than predestined individual salvation which does not agree with a lot of other scripture. "Whosoever believes shall have everlasting life" sure sounds like we have a choice.
Re 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with me.
Does not sound like our choice was made before He arrived at our door.

 

[RickReads]

What you, Rick and Clare are failing to understand when I say collective is when the scripture uses the terms us,we, them, etc. it is referring to all believers, a group who by Gods predestined choice are fulfilling His purpose. this is, in my mind, a very different thing than predestined individual salvation which does not agree with a lot of other scripture. "Whosoever believes shall have everlasting life" sure sounds like we have a choice.
Re 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with me.
Does not sound like our choice was made before He arrived at our door.

Oh, I believe everyone has a choice and needs to make one. Jesus made it clear that He knew His disciples before any of them met Him and from day one He knew who would betray Him.

Likewise, God knows what we will choose to do before we make our choice. It's one of God's Omni super powers. We choose but God already knows us because He's God, it's not His fault.

 

[misput]

Oh, I believe everyone has a choice and needs to make one. Jesus made it clear that He knew His disciples before any of them met Him and from day one He knew who would betray Him.

Likewise, God knows what we will choose to do before we make our choice. It's one of God's Omni super powers. We choose but God already knows us because He's God, it's not His fault.

Then why are we acting like democrats?

 

[RickReads]

Then why are we acting like democrats?

Your assertion that Paul addressing believers collectively does not apply to them individually is fake news.

 

[misput]

Isn't one of the 5 points of Calvinism, the idea that we are predestined by God to heaven or hell with no choice of our own?

 

[misput]

Your assertion that Paul addressing believers collectively does not apply to them individually is fake news.

That sounds very undemocratic to me, like I don't get a vote. Is this just your opinion or can you back it up with scripture?

 

[RickReads]

Isn't one of the 5 points of Calvinism, the idea that we are predestined by God to heaven or hell with no choice of our own?

I've heard that.

 

[RickReads]

That sounds very undemocratic to me, like I don't get a vote. Is this just your opinion or can you back it up with scripture

Really? You think the Kingdom of God is a democracy.

 

[misput]

Really? You think the Kingdom of God is a democracy.

I think you are being coy and avoiding my questions. Anyway, gotta go, bye bye.

 

[RickReads]

I think you are being coy and avoiding my questions. Anyway, gotta go, bye bye.

I wouldn't do that. But before we could have a meaningful dialogue I need to get you to realize that I`m not a Calvinist and I`m not talking about Calvinism, truth is I`m not real interested in Calvinism.

Clare and I were beginning to talk about predestination but since you confuse that with Calvinism you may not be interested.

FYI I`m pretty sure Clare rejects Calvinism as well. Right now I`m trying to figure out why she doesn't think she is on the same page as I on this issue.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

This is a correct understanding of how some are elected to salvation and others remain reprobate. In actual fact, everyone starts reprobate, deserving of Hell, and it is only through God's grace through faith in Christ that causes the person to be born again.

God did not predetermine who was going be elected and who was going to remain reprobate. Because every person was reprobate because of Adam's sin, God has set up His plan of salvation involving the death of Jesus on the Cross and the open invitation to all to believe the Gospel and received Jesus as Saviour. He allowed everyone to choose one way or the other. The ones who chose to believe the Gospel as it was preached to them, the Holy Spirit enlightened them and gave them "saving faith" to fully receive Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to complete the full born again transformation in their hearts and lives. And God, through His foreknowledge, knew who was going to choose for Christ and who was going to reject the Gospel. On the basis of this knowledge, He wrote the names of those who were going to choose for Christ in the Book of Life.

So, it is as simple as that: Believe the Gospel and be saved; Ignore or reject the Gospel and be lost.

You are pouring into the word "foreknew" an unbiblical meaning, something like "knew about it ahead of time." Rather, the word meaning "know people ahead of time," that is, know someone, means to "fore-love" them. According to the verse you quote, God decided to love believers personally from before he created anyone (Ephesians 1). Do a word study in Scripture of the words translated "know" between people, and you see that it means an intimate, personal relationship. Adam knew Eve (KJV), and she got pregnant.

 

[Clare73]

Refresh me on your view of the election. Especially in light of Romans 8:29

That's a tall order. . .but just 'cause it's you, here goes:

1) Election (choosing) is presented in Romans 9:11-12--the case of Jacob and Esau. . .based on nothing but God's sovereign right to choose whom he pleases to fulfill his purposes.

2) Then I understand God's "call" to be effective--not just a kind invitation, according to the purport of the following:

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)
"All that the Father gives me will come to me," (John 6:37)
"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39).
Making "Paulism" and "Calvinism" the doctrine of Christ.

3) Then I understand divine "foreknowledge" in the sense of my post #160; i.e., executing in the present the choice and purpose God (not man) made before the foundations of the world:

"Divine foreknowledge, as used in Scripture, does not refer to God knowing in advance what men are going to do, but refers to God knowing in advance what he is going to do. . .because he has decreed that he shall do it.
Acts 15:18 - "Known to the Lord for ages is his work."
Isaiah 48:3 - "I foretold (predestined) the former things of long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, (foreknowledge executed), and they came to pass.
See Acts 2:23, 4:28; Isaiah 37:26.
God executed in their present the choice and purpose he made before the foundations of the world;
i.e., he executed/accomplished his foreknowledge (his previous choice and purpose)."

4) which brings me to Romans 8:29, "those God foreknew:"
In light of Matthew 7:23, "I never knew you," (which I see as meaning those not of John 6:37, above; i.e., not given to Jesus), I understand those God

"foreknew" to be those whom God lovingly knew (elected for regeneration and love of him) before the foundations of the world, whom he then

"predestined" (determined beforehand, foreordained) to be conformed to the image of his Son, whom he then

"called" with an effective call which accomplishes (John 6:37, above), whom he then

"justified" with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22), and whom he then

"glorified" with the shared glory of Christ's inheritance (Romans 8:27),

all for his purpose in everything: preparing a bride for his one and only Son.

Regardless of whether He knows already who is going to believe the Gospel of Christ and who is not, for us, believing the Gospel is paramount because heaven or hell for us is dependent on it,

Indeed! . . .That is not being denied.

rather than a mystery decree in heaven that only God knows the detail of it."

It is no longer a mystery, it has been revealed by Christ (above) and explained by Paul
in Romans and Ephesians.

Heaven or hell is dependent on the election of God for his purposes, as was the election of Jacob and not Esau (Romans 9:11-12), even the election to salvation (per John 6:65, John 6:37, John 6:39, above) is dependant on God's purposes.

 

[Clare73]

Shorter Westminster Catechism of Faith lists “justice” as one of God’s attributes yet the definition of the word “justice” includes impartiality. Obviously Calvin’s theology is in opposition to the idea that God is impartial.

Impartiality of justice is just that. . .of justice.
And God is impartial in justice. . .he gives everyone his due, what he has earned.
To those whose sin debt is unpaid, he gives what they've earned--damnation.
To those whose sin debt is paid, he gives what they're due--salvation from damnation.

Mercy is impartial in that there is no mercy for anyone without justice being satisfied.
However, nowhere is mercy required to be impartial in its selection of its objects of mercy.

That is the right of totally sovereign and free choice, when all justice has been satisfied.

 

[Clare73]

Then why do you fuss with me over predestination? Force of habit?

What fuss?

 

[Clare73]

Sorry, you do not understand.

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black. . .

 

[RickReads]

That's a tall order. . .but just 'cause it's you, here goes:

1) Election (choosing) is presented in Romans 9:11-12--the case of Jacob and Esau. . .based on nothing but God's sovereign right to choose whom he pleases to fulfill his purposes.

2) Then I understand God's "call" to be effective, not just a kind invitation, according to the purport of the following:

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)
"All that the Father gives me will come to me," (John 6:37)
"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39).
Making "Paulism" and "Calvinism" the doctrine of Christ.

3) Then I understand divine "foreknowledge" in the sense of my post #160; i.e., executing in the present the choice and purpose God (not man) made before the foundations of the world:

"Divine foreknowledge, as used in Scripture, does not refer to God knowing in advance what men are going to do, but refers to God knowing in advance what he is going to do. . .because he has decreed that he shall do it.
Acts 15:18 - "Known to the Lord for ages is his work."
Isaiah 48:3 - "I foretold (predestined) the former things of long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass (accomplished them).
See Acts 2:23, 4:28; Isaiah 37:26.
God executed in their present the choice and purpose he made before they were created;
i.e., he executed/accomplished his foreknowledge (his previous choice and purpose)."

4) which brings me to Romans 8:29, "those God foreknew:"
In light of Matthew 7:23, "I never knew you," (which I see as meaning those not of John 6:37, above; i.e., not given to Jesus), I understand those God

"foreknew" to be those whom God lovingly knew (elected for regeneration and love of him) before the foundations of the world, whom he then

"predestined" (determined beforehand, foreordained) to be conformed to the image of his Son, whom he then

"called" with an effective call which accomplishes (John 6:37, above), whom he then

"justified" with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22), and whom he then

"glorified" with the shared glory of Christ's inheritance (Romans 8:27).

Indeed! . . .That is not being denied.
It is no longer a mystery, it has been revealed by Christ (above) and explained by Paul
in Romans and Ephesians.

Heaven or hell is dependent on the election of God for his purposes, as was the election of Jacob and not Esau (Romans 9:11-12), even the election to salvation (per John 6:65, John 6:37, John 6:39, above) is dependant on God's purposes.

-

I may possibly go along with all that except for your assertion about Jacob and Esau. There were things about Jacob that God liked and there were things about Esau that God didn't like.

God's personal feelings about both impacted His decisions. Even though neither had done anything God foreknew them both.

 

[misput]

I wouldn't do that. But before we could have a meaningful dialogue I need to get you to realize that I`m not a Calvinist and I`m not talking about Calvinism, truth is I`m not real interested in Calvinism.

Clare and I were beginning to talk about predestination but since you confuse that with Calvinism you may not be interested.

FYI I`m pretty sure Clare rejects Calvinism as well. Right now I`m trying to figure out why she doesn't think she is on the same page as I on this issue.

Ditto for me on Calvinism but predestination is part of Calvinism and the subject of this thread, so, much wasted information and ignorant opinion about me being confused.
Clare dose not think Jacob and Esau had a choice concerning salvation. From what I understand you do. I think the scripture about them was about the purpose God had for them, not about salvation.

 

[misput]

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black. . .

That is your opinion and as such you have probably noticed carries little or no weight around here.

PS: Speaking of opinions, you and Rick seem to think whether God is speaking about a group or an individual it makes no difference in how we should interpret what He is saying. Just my opinion but I think you are very wrong.

 

[Clare73]

That is your opinion and as such you have probably noticed
carries little or no weight around here.

Is that your best argument, ad hominem?

And yet there are others who say exactly the opposite. . .go figure.

PS: Speaking of opinions, you and Rick seem to think whether God is speaking about a group or an individual it makes no difference in how we should interpret what He is saying. Just my opinion but I think you are very wrong.

Mehinks you don't understand the context of those matters.