What is Tradition?

[sculleywr]

Many times we Orthodox will claim that Authority rests in the Church through the Tradition of the Apostles. Sunlover1, a member here, asked me in another thread to answer the following question:

What is Tradition?
How do we know them to be Apostolic?

This thread is to discuss what Tradition is, and not whether or not it is authoritative. Please find another thread for that discussion.

The following is a list of the Traditions I made, which is the closest to a systematic theology that you will really find in Orthodox theology.

1. Theology proper ("Who is the Father?"
God is the almighty, uncreated Being Who created all things visible and invisible. God's very nature is Grace, which makes Grace itself uncreated. As per the Creed:

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
Simple, Straightforward and to the point
​

2. Christology ("Who is Christ?")
Christ is the Lord, sharing perfectly in essence both what it means to be completely God, and what it means to be completely man (as Man was originally created, being without sin, refer to Anthropology, in number 5). He Has two natures, two wills, but is only one person. He is the only hypostatic union in existence, having God and man perfectly unified, being everything it means to be both, without confusion and without subtraction from the natures of either (remember this as it becomes important later on in the final dogma). The rest is summed up in the Creed as regards Christ:

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
God, begotten of the Father before all ages;
Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten,
not created, of one essence with the Father
through Whom all things were made.
Who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven and was incarnate
of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered and was buried;
And He rose on the third day,
according to the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father;
And He will come again with glory to judge the living
and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.
​

3. Pneumatology ("Who is the Holy Spirit?")
The Holy Spirit is the Giver of Life, the voice of the Apostles and Prophets, the heart of the Church as Christ is the Head. He proceeds from the Father ALONE, and is equal in divinity to the Father and to the Son. This is per the Creed.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life,
Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the
Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who
spoke through the prophets.
​

4. Trinitarianism ("What does it mean to be a Trinity?"
God is one God in Three Persons. Each person (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) shares completely with eachother what it means God, but nothing of what it means to be the other Persons. There is nothing that the Father and Son share that the Spirit does not share. And there is nothing that the Son does not share with the Spirit that he shares with the Father.
Example: Christ has a physical body, but neither the Father nor the Spirit have one. Christ also has full divinity, something that both the Father and the Spirit have.

5. Anthropology (What and who is man?)
Man was created perfect, as man and woman, in God's image. Man was created with free will and volition. In Eden, man was tempted by Satan and fell into sin, becoming corrupted and infected with a disease more dangerous than any cancer.

6. Soteriology (Can we be saved and how?)
Salvation is the work of God, in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is accepted by man in his free will assent and repentance. However, repentance is not just a promise to follow Christ. Salvation is by no means a "free ride" into heaven. Such would not accomplish the purpose of God. Salvation is not merely entrance into heaven when I die. Entrance into heaven is, in fact, the least important part of it all. Salvation is an intimate relationship with God in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. By the High Priestly Prayer of Christ in the book of John in the Garden, Eternal Life is knowledge and oneness with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Therefore, salvation cannot simply be conferred to mankind, as one cannot simply confer an intimate knowledge of a finite being in one step, much less intimate knowledge of an infinite Creator. Nor is righteousness simply imputed to mankind (a doctrine resultant of bad translation, or perhaps a bad translation resultant of bad doctrine). Rather, the action of God in response to man's repentance literally MAKES us righteous.
God does the main work, we simply make sure we are on the right train. The eventual goal is that we be in perfect communion with God in the way that Adam and Eve were intended to be.

7. Iconography (Can images of Christ be made?)
Iconography is a gift of God directly resultant of the nature of Christ, and even a direct reflection thereof. Do NOT get me wrong. The Icon cannot express the invisible qualities of God. To say so would be idolatry. However, an Icon can display Christ. Though we do not know exactly what Christ looked like, that is not the point of the Icon. The point of the Icon is to put on proud display the very reason for which we can even gather as the Children of God: Christ became man.
As a man, if one were to take a polaroid with them in the TARDIS, he could snap a picture of Christ. Icons are an acknowledgement and very visible declaration of the fact that God became man. The God of matter became matter so that He might redeem the world of Matter and the people of matter.
This theology spreads to the Saints as they are, themselves, reflections of Christ. This is the main reason we have candles: the candles represent that the saints and the Icons have no light of their own, but are rather only reflections of the Uncreated Light, or perhaps windows into heaven.
It is known to many Orthodox that Icons have been used by God to perform miracles. A popular example is the Iveron Icon in Hawaii, which provides an unlimited amount of myrrh, despite being made simply of wood and paint. Despite the miracle, the Icon is not, itself, performing any great work. The Work is the action of God, and not of man, nor of the image. It is of utmost importance that we realize and understand that the source of all truth and power is God.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Bold.

Bold to go for this topic...

 

[sculleywr]

Bold.

Bold to go for this topic...

Better than flaming wars like in the thread that happened. I posted because I want something slightly more civilized. like a water gun fight!

 

[Standing Up]

Tradition is like a box of chocolates

 

[sculleywr]

Tradition is like a box of chocolates

At least there are fewer flavors. And I wouldn't call either of them that nasty whipped stuffed chocolates :bleh:

 

[Gnarwhal]

Better than flaming wars like in the thread that happened. I posted because I want something slightly more civilized. like a water gun fight!

Then let's suit up!

Tradition:

Non-Tradition:

Relax all, I jest.

Tradition is like a box of chocolates

Indeed! It's ohhhh-so-sweet.

 

[sculleywr]

Then let's suit up!

Tradition:

Non-Tradition:

Relax all, I jest.



Indeed! It's ohhhh-so-sweet.

I'll grab one of these babies:

 

[sunlover1]

Bold.

Bold to go for this topic...

He's been pretty excited about this topic.
Even PM'd me at one point in order to call
me back to the subject.

It's kinda cute sculley.
Not gonna lie

Better than flaming wars like in the thread that happened. I posted because I want something slightly more civilized. like a water gun fight!

I don't think it's possible to replicate that mess.
Thanks be to God.

 

[sunlover1]

Tradition is like a box of chocolates

OH! LOL

I didn't get it at first.
SMH
It's a Gump reference isn't it?

I'll grab one of these babies:

Locked and loaded





My weapon of choice:

 

[sculleywr]

OH! LOL

I didn't get it at first.
SMH
It's a Gump reference isn't it?


Locked and loaded





My weapon of choice:

Lol en garde!

So, shall we get to business now that goofiness has had time? I promise more goofiness. I'll start using pictures and captions with funny things like on Cracked.com!

 

[sunlover1]

Lol en garde!

So, shall we get to business now that goofiness has had time? I promise more goofiness. I'll start using pictures and captions with funny things like on Cracked.com!

I might have been a bit hasty in my throw down.
It being cocktail hour over here, I my not be in
my best form.
Let's see what happens. I'm sure Sup will have a
thing or three to say.

And truly, I'm not much good for a tradition talk.
But if I see something that needs attention,
you know you can count on me.

*preparing

 

[Lion King]

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
God, begotten of the Father before all ages;

Wait, what? Jesus was born/begotten before all ages?

Where did you get that from?

3. Pneumatology ("Who is the Holy Spirit?")
The Holy Spirit is the Giver of Life, the voice of the Apostles and Prophets, the heart of the Church as Christ is the Head. He proceeds from the Father ALONE, and is equal in divinity to the Father and to the Son.

Where did you get the idea that the Holy-Spirit proceeds from the Father ALONE?

 

[sculleywr]

Wait, what? Jesus was born/begotten before all ages?

Where did you get that from?

1. The Son is always the Son, and so was begotten eternally. However, begotten and born are two different terms. Begotten refers to origin, birth refers to childbirth. So no, we do not confess Him eternally born.

Where did you get the idea that the Holy-Spirit proceeds from the Father ALONE?

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The filioque ("And the Son" in Latin) was an addition to the Creed from Spain, which was later legislated by Charlemagne. However, the Pope of the time led a council which declared it to be heresy, because it violated the Trinity's composition by making the Spirit subject, and thus lesser than, the other two persons of the Trinity.

The Tradition of Orthodoxy follows the Scriptures, which have the Spirit as a single spiration, proceeding from the Father alone (though not in all those terms).

The Pope of 1054 made this doctrine required in violation of the previous ex-cathedra statement of a Pope. Pope Leo's stance was one of Orthodoxy, whereas the later Popes held a stance which was heretical to the original Creed.

 

[sculleywr]

I might have been a bit hasty in my throw down.
It being cocktail hour over here, I my not be in
my best form.
Let's see what happens. I'm sure Sup will have a
thing or three to say.

And truly, I'm not much good for a tradition talk.
But if I see something that needs attention,
you know you can count on me.

*preparing

lol.

 

[sculleywr]

Lion King, it is also important to notice that Pope Leo was so patently against the addition of the Filioque that he had the original creed chiseled into the wall of St. Peter's Basilica with the declaration "This is the orthodox faith" chiseled in three languages.

 

[Lion King]

1. The Son is always the Son, and so was begotten eternally. However, begotten and born are two different terms. Begotten refers to origin, birth refers to childbirth. So no, we do not confess Him eternally born.

Begotten means "to give birth to".

1080. gennaó

gennaó: to beget, to bring forth
Original Word: γεννάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: gennaó
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-nah'-o)
Short Definition: I beget, bring forth, give birth to
Definition: I beget (of the male), (of the female) I bring forth, give birth to.

1080 gennáō – properly, beget (procreate a descendant), produce offspring; (passive) be born, "begotten."


God has fulfilled the same to us their children, in that he has raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, You are my Son, this day have I begotten you. Acts 13:33


Your turn.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The filioque ("And the Son" in Latin) was an addition to the Creed from Spain, which was later legislated by Charlemagne. However, the Pope of the time led a council which declared it to be heresy, because it violated the Trinity's composition by making the Spirit subject, and thus lesser than, the other two persons of the Trinity.

The Tradition of Orthodoxy follows the Scriptures, which have the Spirit as a single spiration, proceeding from the Father alone (though not in all those terms).

The Pope of 1054 made this doctrine required in violation of the previous ex-cathedra statement of a Pope. Pope Leo's stance was one of Orthodoxy, whereas the later Popes held a stance which was heretical to the original Creed.

Where in John 15:26 does it state that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father ALONE?

I find it highly amusing that your church criticizes Martin Luther for adding the word "alone" to the Scriptures, yet here you are doing the very same thing.

 

[sculleywr]

Begotten means "to give birth to".

1080. gennaó

gennaó: to beget, to bring forth
Original Word: γεννάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: gennaó
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-nah'-o)
Short Definition: I beget, bring forth, give birth to
Definition: I beget (of the male), (of the female) I bring forth, give birth to.

1080 gennáō – properly, beget (procreate a descendant), produce offspring; (passive) be born, "begotten."


God has fulfilled the same to us their children, in that he has raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, You are my Son, this day have I begotten you. Acts 13:33


Your turn.

An eternal being is always existent, therefore, if Christ was ever born, He always was, always is, and always will be. Hence his declaration, "Before Abraham was, I AM". This theology is reflected in the traditional (small t) Orthodox greeting after Christmas (Christos Gennatai: Christ is Born!), and the greeting after Pascha (Christos Anesti: Christ is risen!).

So maybe my Greek needs some polishing, however, theology exists independently of language.

Where in John 15:26 does it state that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father ALONE?

I find it highly amusing that your church criticizes Martin Luther for adding the word "alone" to the Scriptures, yet here you are doing the very same thing.

It isn't. However:

1. We have multiple popes with multiple declarations ex cathedra on the statement (based on the Vatican 2 definition of "Ex Cathedra"). The first Popes declared it heresy. The later contradict them. Which are right?

2. The earliest Christians showed no Filioque practice. And they declared the Persons to be completely equal. Essentially, they described that everything shared between two, was shared by all three. Therefore, if the Spirit's procession is shared by the Father and the Son, then we must also assume that He proceeds from Himself. However, the procession of the Spirit is a trait that is definably part of the energies of the Father, and not the essence of Who God is as the whole Trinity.

3. The Filioque was not part of the original Creed.

4. The Filioque was inserted into the Creed and all who rejected it were summarily excommunicated by one man, who established himself as head of the Church in the place of Christ.

All of these are problems connected to the Filioque.

Why should we add to the Creed something that is neither in the Scripture, nor in earliest Tradition?

 

[Gnarwhal]

John 1.1-2

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.​

As annotated in the Nicene Creed posted on the rules section of CF.

 

[Lion King]

An eternal being is always existent, therefore, if Christ was ever born, He always was, always is, and always will be. Hence his declaration, "Before Abraham was, I AM". This theology is reflected in the traditional (small t) Orthodox greeting after Christmas (Christos Gennatai: Christ is Born!), and the greeting after Pascha (Christos Anesti: Christ is risen!).

So maybe my Greek needs some polishing, however, theology exists independently of language.

There is a massive difference between the words "monogenes" (only-begotten) and "gennao" (begotten). The former is used to represent Jesus uniqueness, while the latter is used for Christ's resurrection [Jesus is the first born of the dead after all].

Yes, I completely agree that Jesus has always been in existence with the Father even before creation. Never was there a time when the Father was without the Son.

It isn't. However:

1. We have multiple popes with multiple declarations ex cathedra on the statement (based on the Vatican 2 definition of "Ex Cathedra"). The first Popes declared it heresy. The later contradict them. Which are right?

2. The earliest Christians showed no Filioque practice. And they declared the Persons to be completely equal. Essentially, they described that everything shared between two, was shared by all three. Therefore, if the Spirit's procession is shared by the Father and the Son, then we must also assume that He proceeds from Himself. However, the procession of the Spirit is a trait that is definably part of the energies of the Father, and not the essence of Who God is as the whole Trinity.

3. The Filioque was not part of the original Creed.

4. The Filioque was inserted into the Creed and all who rejected it were summarily excommunicated by one man, who established himself as head of the Church in the place of Christ.

All of these are problems connected to the Filioque.

Why should we add to the Creed something that is neither in the Scripture, nor in earliest Tradition?

I don't think you understood my question. Where did you get this belief that the Spirit proceeds from the Father ALONE?

John 15:26 you've just quoted as proof never said such thing. Who added the word ALONE?

 

[sculleywr]

There is a massive difference between the words "monogenes" (only-begotten) and "gennao" (begotten). The former is used to represent Jesus uniqueness, while the latter is used for Christ's resurrection [Jesus is the first born of the dead after all].

Yes, I completely agree that Jesus has always been in existence with the Father even before creation. Never was there a time when the Father was without the Son.

Basically a problem of wording then?

I don't think you understood my question. Where did you get this belief that the Spirit proceeds from the Father ALONE?

John 15:26 you've just quoted as proof never said such thing. Who added the word ALONE?

Nobody added them to the Creeds. The description of the Spirit coming from the Father alone came as a result of people actually changing their view of the Spirit. As a result of the Filioque, people started to act as though the Spirit was not truly completely divine, or (more commonly) to treat the Spirit as though it were a "mode" of the Father, leading to an acceptance of semi-modalism (modalism being the belief that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different modes of God, and not distinct persons).

To the Orthodox Church, the Filioque represents an attack on the personhood and distinctive nature of the Spirit, and is rejected for that very reason. Therefore, we teach the single procession of the Spirit because Scripture does not even hint at a second procession.

While the filioque may not seem to be a big issue to us, it is. When you change what you believe, it changes what you do, and when you change what you do, you get different results. It was not until the Filioque resulted in people changing their view of God and their approach to the Spirit that we rejected it.