What is "tough love" and are you a fan of it?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"Tough love" is a real thing sometimes, but 95% of the time the phrase is a euphemism for abuse.

Doesn't that fit with the statistics (right or wrong) that 95% of the world is abusers?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Oh wow, after you mentioned this I went to the top of the page and saw "Christian Advice." Had I realized, I probably would have not even interjected. I need to make it a practice to double check the forum when I am access it from "New Messages." I think I will go back and delete some if not all of my contributions.

It's not a problem, and I kinda wish you hadn't gone so far as to erase your posts. I think we may just have to learn to recognize the boundaries as you said. I suppose I can still interact on discussion threads like this, only understanding that when it comes time to give scriptural support for what I am saying I will not be able to on threads like this one. I suppose they have such rules so that those with a much stronger theological background don't completely overwhelm those who were merely looking to share opinions on the matter. And the more I think about it, that is a necessary position to take. I think the place for Christian scholarship in such instances is to run the conversation out until someone asks for Biblical proof (which they inevitably do), and then just apologize and say, "I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to do that on this particular thread, but if you are truly interested I can discuss it with you in private, or maybe create a new thread in a theology-oriented board to pick the subject back up there."

Again, good as always to talk with you.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Spanking is not "tough love." It is typically the result of a frustrated or angry parent, or one who has an authoritarian parenting style. Spanking has been shown over and over that it is not an effective way to instill self-discipline in your children, and punishment is never a good way to teach your children not to misbehave. There is always an underlying reason children "misbehave" and it is up to the caregivers to learn what that message is they are trying to convey. Discipline is about discipling (teaching) your children - even teaching self-discipline, which can't be achieved through spanking.

Tough love may be needed to assert boundaries that have not been respected. By tough love, I mean the necessity of being tough enough to do what is in the other person's best interest, even though it hurts you to do so. I believe this should be a last resort because it may have negative impact on the relationship. All measures should be used first to preserve the relationship, and when all else fails, tough love may be necessary.

(To the tune of "Oops There Goes Another Rubber Tree Plant"),

"Oops there goes a-noth-er bible verse......" (Proverbs 22:15).

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I've been using 'tough love' on myself for some years now, and it seems to be working. When I have it perfected I will use it on others.

But to the title question; tough love is doing things the right way and insisting that those in your charge do the same. Few like it (I'm one who does) but it is the only way for humanity to save itself.

Tough love is just strict discipline for the benefit of the disciplined.

 

[archer75]

(To the tune of "Oops There Goes Another Rubber Tree Plant"),

"Oops there goes a-noth-er bible verse......" (Proverbs 22:15).

The notion that this verse is somehow a command to or justifies beating children regularly - sometimes to death - is amazing to me.

But let's assume it's so.

So, there's this "bible verse." A proverb in a list of proverbs. Okay. Your kid did something you didn't like. You check Proverbs 22:15 to make sure -- okay, time for a beating. How many times do you hit the kid? With what? With what force? Please cite Scripture in your reply!

Further, what about Matthew 18:3? Are we not supposed to be like children? Perhaps adults should be beaten as well? If so, by whom, with what frequency, with what instrument, and with what force?

Obviously, you can tell I don't agree with the notion that this verse somehow puts the lie to everything that has been said on this thread against the practice of beating children brutally.

In my opinion, this is just another example of covering up sin...with a dime-store legalism that isn't even legalism.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The notion that this verse is somehow a command to or justifies beating children regularly - sometimes to death - is amazing to me.

What is this ?

A strawman, A hyperbole? just for confusion ?

Not at all related to what TORAH says is good or proper or obedient...

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The notion that this verse is somehow a command to or justifies beating children regularly - sometimes to death - is amazing to me.

But let's assume it's so.

So, there's this "bible verse." A proverb in a list of proverbs. Okay. Your kid did something you didn't like. You check Proverbs 22:15 to make sure -- okay, time for a beating. How many times do you hit the kid? With what? With what force? Please cite Scripture in your reply!

Further, what about Matthew 18:3? Are we not supposed to be like children? Perhaps adults should be beaten as well? If so, by whom, with what frequency, with what instrument, and with what force?

Obviously, you can tell I don't agree with the notion that this verse somehow puts the lie to everything that has been said on this thread against the practice of beating children brutally.

In my opinion, this is just another example of covering up sin...with a dime-store legalism that isn't even legalism.

Why do you think this verse only means to physically beat someone?

 

[FrankDux]

Sure, I think it's important, these two verses always remind me

" And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet "

Meaning:

You can only waste so much time on some before it's a hindrance to helping others

" And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth "

Sometimes you just have to leave people behind / ignore them / pretend they do not exist to you

That's tough love in a nutshell

 

[archer75]

Why do you think this verse only means to physically beat someone?

...okay, you got me. 99 times out of 100, when someone cites this verse, they cite it as evidence that any kind of beating they wish to inflict on their child is fine. This was the 100th instance.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

...okay, you got me. 99 times out of 100, when someone cites this verse, they cite it as evidence that any kind of beating they wish to inflict on their child is fine. This was the 100th instance.

It was a 'gotcha' reply, sorry. "Rod" can mean a stick or branch for punishment but the context here is scepter; symbolic of the authority to administer correction, not necessarily punishment.

 

[archer75]

It was a 'gotcha' reply, sorry. "Rod" can mean a stick or branch for punishment but the context here is scepter; symbolic of the authority to administer correction, not necessarily punishment.

Well, I stand "corrected." Although it was indded a gotcha reply and my taking the bait was obviously your intent.

Good job there, though.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Well, I stand "corrected." Although it was indded a gotcha reply and my taking the bait was obviously your intent.

Good job there, though.

You're welcome!

 

[Foxfyre]

There is bias I admit . Even though the word "hitting" is pretty neutral. I'm not a fan of corporal punishment. Having said that, the odd smack on the bottom of a two year old having a tantrum, is understandable. But lets not turn this thread into pros and cons of smacking children. I'm more interested in how we use "tough love" with each other as adults.

Disclaimer: I have not read the entire thread and will most likely repeat what others have said here.

IMO 'tough love' is allowing people to suffer the consequences of their bad choices when not to do that enables and conditions them to keep making those bad choices.

Of course if a person has chosen to do something seriously injurious to himself or somebody else, we intervene.

But we don't pay the speeding ticket for the kid but let him work it off himself. That's tough love.

We don't bail our friend out of jail where he landed after his third drunk driving offense. That's tough love.

We don't insist the school release our child from detention when he dawdled and was late too many times in a row. That's tough love.

We don't cover for our loved one when he is too hung over from drugs or alcohol to get up and go to work. That's tough love.

And we trust our instincts to know when it is right to help out those in trouble and when it is more loving in the long run to allow them to incur consequences for bad choices.

 

[ValleyGal]

The rod of correction is not a stick to beat. It is the rod of a shepherd, used to guide the sheep to go in a certain direction. It might be used to beat, but the recipient of the beating is the wolf who comes to destroy the sheep - not the sheep! God's love for us is not punitive. Instead, he draws us to himself, teaches us, is patient with us, and gives us guidelines (think rod here) for holy living. If we disobey, we have natural consequences...not punishment. Natural consequences are good teaching tools. God does not come down here and spank his children.

 

[The Brown Brink]

Was Jesus 'bad' ever ? Yet he was punished, he was sticken and afflicted.
He was stoned(probably) and crucified.

What did Jesus do that was bad ?

No one is as big as He is, yet he suffered willingly, for you and for me.

He suffered and was beaten until his back was one mass of blood- the flesh all beaten away with whips.

He knew this would happen, yet he willingly permitted it,

for your sake and for my sake, for as many as call on Him.

Yes.
But who hits you?
Who is allowed to hit you?

Back in Bible days, adults received corporal punishment, too, not just the children.
In modern times, we grown-ups have made laws so nobody is allowed to hit grown-ups anymore.
We provide other, less primitive consequences for OURSELVES...

But we still want to hit our kids.
Makes me sick.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But we still want to hit our kids.
Makes me sick.

IT should, and you should see THE DOCTOR (GOD).

He can help overcome that sickness of wanting to hit your kids.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

In modern times, we grown-ups have made laws so nobody is allowed to hit grown-ups anymore.

Ah, so you think modern times are better ?
Modern times that JESUS called "as in the days of NOAH" when evil and wickedness filled the earth,
like it does today because mankind forsakes God's Word and does not call on God for help - they keep worshiping/serving demons instead.

 

[The Brown Brink]

Ah, so you think modern times are better ?
Modern times that JESUS called "as in the days of NOAH" when evil and wickedness filled the earth,
like it does today because mankind forsakes God's Word and does not call on God for help - they keep worshiping/serving demons instead.

Pooh!
People who think that God's beautiful world is bad are the ones who try to MAKE it bad.
God's world would be sweeter if SOME people would stop bad-mouthing it.

 

[Fabric lover]

My definition of tough love is firmness.

When my teenage daughter ran away from home, she called and told me I needed to choose between her and my husband (her stepfather). I chose him. That infuriated her.

Tough love means not enabling someone. If what they're doing is unacceptable and affects you, stand firm. If they desist, great. If not, that is their choice. The age of the person is a facor, as is their ability to comprehend what is happening.

Immaturity among fully formed adults is widespread today. Children bully and threaten parents. It's an upside down world.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Some will say "tough love" requires hitting a child when they are naughty for instance.

Maybe a touch of wisdom for this thread would be to say that you need to be led by the Spirit with each individual child, with each individual person God makes you responsible for and will hold you accountable for in some way.

What I mean is, when I was a child my father spanked me at least once or twice for misbehaviors I can't even remember now. Did I resent it? FAR from it. All that I remember is that from that time on, when my father said he wanted something to stop I listened. I didn't string him along for an eternity and require nine million "Stop it, Jeffery!"s from a mother who practiced no discipline other than trying to badger her child into good behavior verbally, which often just engenders increasing rebelliousness in the child more than anything else.

I believe my mother spanked me one time as well, and I DO remember what that was for, and I remember the spanking pretty clearly. That was probably the single best piece of parenting she ever executed in her life. But what I'm saying is that my personality most certainly did not need a bunch Molly coddling. I needed bodily discipline to seriously get my attention.

Maybe there are other personalities that don't have to be dealt with this severely, in which case bodily disciple would be wrong, and actually a sin against them, which all the more would require us to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit in every moment while parenting.

But anyone who teaches that there are never instances or particular children who need a swift kick in the pants should take a moment to consider how much violence there is in this world, and how much of it could have been prevented had there been a strong authority figure in their lives as a child.