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What is this necessary “Wedding Garment”?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Minister Monardo, Nov 1, 2020.

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  1. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    Poor Peter then, should we stop referring to him as a saint? he denied Jesus 3 times publicly in one night.
    I thought we had an understanding in a thread before that sanctification was not attaining a sinless perfection/holiness doctrine that you have apparently believed in before.
    It's a progressive condition but the condition required for eternal life itself is justification. Because I don't think anyone gets fully sanctified in this life.
    It is also not our work, but God's work in us. Philippians 1:6
     
  2. BibleBeliever1611

    BibleBeliever1611 Active Member

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    What if someone who believes in Jesus denies him before men? According to John 6:47 that person is still saved.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I never suggested that a believer does good works apart from God. Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5).

    As for Peter:

    He had confessed and forsaken this sin.

    As for achieving holiness in this life:

    Try reading Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1. For we see both Zacharias and Elisabeth kept the commands of God blamelessly.

    Luke 1:5-6 KJB says,
    [5] “There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. [6] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.”

    Then there is the future 144,000. They are found without fault before the throne of God (which is in context to their holy conduct) (See Revelation 14:3-5).
     
  4. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member

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    We must eagerly look forward to witnessing for Christ, if given the opportunity, before any
    authority with power to take our life.
    Revelation 20:
    4
    And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.
    Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for
    the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received
    his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ
    for a thousand years.

    This I find to be the greatest beatitude.
    6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death
    has no power,
    but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him
    a thousand years.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No. John 6:47 does not say a believer can deny Jesus and still have eternal life.

    In fact, 1 John 3:15 says that everyone who hates his brother is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
     
  6. BibleBeliever1611

    BibleBeliever1611 Active Member

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    Not in their heart but they could lie about it. I don't think Matthew 10:33 is even talking about salvation anyway.
     
  7. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The King provides the garment, all man does is don it.

    That doesn't imply man's works in any way, shape or form... that implies being covered in the blood of Christ along with the life-changing, image of Christ making, Holy Spirit given us by Christ at the initial moment of our justification that proceeds to shape us into His image from that moment forward.

    Man should never credit man for the work of the living God - to God be the Glory.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So you believe God can deny a person and yet save them? That is highly illogical.
     
  9. Valletta

    Valletta Well-Known Member

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    All we need do is cooperate with the Holy Spirit.
    1 Corinthians 13:13: But for now, these three continue: faith, hope, and charity. And the greatest of these is charity. CPDV: Catholic Public Domain Version
     
  10. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    It's one of those difficult to reconcile concepts.
    When there are passages where people like Job are blameless before God, pre Jesus, and at the same time 1 John 1:8 Romans 3, Isaiah 53:6, and on and on and on.
    Ultimately there is only one person who has ever been totally blameless before God through just never sinning.
    The rest of us have to get that sinless life substituted for ours, and I reconcile those OT saints as being blameless through their faith in God and God elected them to also be washed by the blood of Jesus. Romans 4:3 demonstrates that salvation has always been through God's grace. It has never been a "different dispensation" where in the OT it was works and the NT grace or whatever. Those 144k? Not blameless through their own obedience. Blameless through Christ's obedience. We will be blameless and righteous before God not through obedience, but through Jesus despite disobedience. Nobody, not even you who seems to believe in holiness doctrine, obeys the will of the Father perfectly in flesh.
    You are right that there are some conditions that we need to hold up on our end, we need to forgive others, and when we sin, we confess as in 1 John 1:9, and we need to love God and love our neighbors as ourselves.
    But we're going to fall short on the specifics. You're going to make bad decisions.
    You're going to know what is good to do and neglect to do it at bare minimum (which James 4:17 says.. is a sin). We won't be sinless and perfect while in this body.
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    It's not that difficult to reconcile. Everyone has sinned in their life BEFORE coming to Christ. Romans 3, and Isaiah 53:6 is talking about our PAST LIFE before becoming a believer. 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren against the false gnostic heresy that says that we cannot deny sin's existence. Christian Scientists deny the existence of sin and thus 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to them in not to think this way. Eternal Security Proponents and or Non-OSAS Sin and Still Be Saved Type Believers (Free Will Baptists) believe that Jesus paid for present and future unconfessed sins. They believe sin exists physically, but they deny sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for their present and future sins by their having a belief alone on Him for salvation or in the finished work of Christ, etc.; So 1 John 1:8 would be a warning to them, as well.

    At this point, many in your camp will bring up Romans 7:14-24. But in Romans 7:14-24, Paul is sharing his experience from his past life as a Pharisee in trying to be justified by the Old Law (the 613 Laws of Moses) without God's grace and he is not speaking as a Christian. The Old Law (as a whole) is no longer in effect. So when Saul (Paul) sought to overcome sin as a Pharisee under this false belief system, he obviously was a slave to his sin. But Paul later says in Romans 13:14 says to put on the Lord Jesus Christ and fulfill not the lusts of the flesh. So unless Paul has a split personality, he is speaking from two different perspectives or beliefs.

    Believers like Job, Zacharias, Elisabeth, and the 144,000 were able to be blameless in the sense of their life either AFTER they came to Christ or within a certain period of lenght of time as a believer up until the present moment (that it was written that they were blameless).

    This is true. Jesus is the only One who lived an entirely sinless life. But that does not mean a believer cannot overcome mortal sin by the power of the Lord working through them. Jesus came to forgive us of our past sins, and reconcile us to God, and give us a new heart, and to put the Holy Spirit inside of us, and to give us a new and more perfect way in following God (with the New Testament commandments). His followers helped to flesh out what Jesus taught, and they (by the leading of the Spirit) added even more NT commands in following the Lord.

    We are all initially and foundationally saved by God's grace through faith in the Messiah. Those in the OT did not know who Jesus was, but they looked ahead to a future Messiah who was going to one day redeem them. In the OT, they had to make sacrifices in order to temporarily absolve sin. But they had to keep revisiting the same PAST sins year after year with a priest. They sought forgiveness with the Lord in the same way we do (by going to Him in prayer), but they simply did not know the name of the Lord (i.e. Jesus). The OT system was not a system of salvation by Works Alone (without God's grace). They were saved by grace through faith, too (Albeit, a little differently back then because the forgiveness was only temporary by the animal sacrifices until Christ came). The blood of goats and bulls could never permanently take away sin. But a true faith always is followed by the “work of faith” (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11) (Hebrews 11), otherwise it is a dead faith that cannot save (James 2:17-18); For we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

    Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, and Titus 3:5 are all talking about the initial and foundational aspect of salvation (Which is first being saved by God's grace without the deeds of the Law). This then leads to the second aspect of the salvation process called “Sanctification” (Which is holy living by God's power working in us) (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24). Verses like Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, and Titus 3:5 are referring to how we are not saved by “Works Alone Salvationism” without God's grace. But many twist Paul's words to their own destruction, and justify some kind of sin and still be saved type belief.

    Your adding to the Bible and ignoring what it says. Reading the entire passage in context we see below that they were blameless in regards to their holy conduct because they were not defiled with women, they followed the Lamb (Jesus) wherever he directed them, and there was no guile found in their mouths.

    For Revelation 14:3-5 says,
    “And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”​

    There is no mention in this above passage about how they were blameless because they trusted really well on the finished work of Christ. That would be your imagination working overtime and it would not be in harmony with what the text actually says.

    Strange how you reject what the Bible says in regards Job, Zacharias, Elisabeth, and the 144,000 in favor of a doctrine that does not exist in the Holy Scriptures.

    So you believe salvation is conditional? I did not get the impression that Baptists held to such a view (Unless they are Free Will Baptists). But even Free Will Baptists believe they can sin and still be saved. So the conditions they have for salvation is not all that much. Anyways, your point about how believers cannot stop sinning this side of Heaven is “you talking” and not the Bible. Again, I would encourage you to slowly read Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, and 2 Corinthians 7:1. Do you believe these verses at face value? Or do you seek to change them because you do not like what they say?
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
  12. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    There are some conditions. Matthew 6:14-15 shows that if you don't forgive others, God won't forgive you. The parable of the unforgiving debtor also shows this. 1 John 1:9 shows that sins need to be confessed and is in agreement with Proverbs 28:13. If you attempt to hide or justify rather than confess and ask forgiveness.. well, looks like that sin can be held against you.
    But all sin is forgiven by the same blood of Jesus. There is no more sacrifice. You will most likely be chastised for that sin.
    But that's a far cry from 1 sin after salvation = oops you go right back to having hell as your eternal destination.
    Your doctrine that there is no forgiveness for sin after being saved basically makes the ideal time to get saved be on your death bed.
    Because sorry man but I can say with a good level of confidence, that if you were right, you'd be going to hell along with everyone else. I guess a 144k are the only few people who don't.
    But we read about a great multitude beyond counting, that is, more than the 144,000.
    Do you honestly believe that there's that many people who after being saved, never sinned once again in their entire life?
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe that believers can potentially sin after their conversion, but they need to confess and forsake sin in order to maintain mercy or salvation.

    The difference here is one’s attitude towards sin in context to what the Bible says. Faithful believers seek to fight against sin with the goal of overcoming it in this life. Then there are other believers who seek to justify sin.

    For example: It’s like a drunk who joins an alcohol program. He may slip on his road to recovery but he will in time overcome his demon in the bottle. But the alcoholic who seeks to justify his sin of alcoholism may appear to join a drug program to stop, but we later learn he joined to please a family member and he never had any intention of giving up his booze. In fact, he may have even convinced himself of the lie that it is impossible to stop drinking.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    It sounds like you believe that confessing and forsaking sin really does not have anything to do with salvation. If this is the case, then why is mercy or forgiveness mentioned? Is not mercy and forgiveness tied to salvation?
     
  15. Valletta

    Valletta Well-Known Member

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    God offers His mercy to us when we sin after we have been saved.
     
  16. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    That's a better doctrine. Too far the other way and you start claiming that your sins are not sins but just "mistakes" because you don't want to view them as sins because you think you're dead to sin and can't sin so whatever you do can't POSSIBLY be sin. Are you going to confess and seek forgiveness for mistakes? Less likely, you're going to justify them as mistakes rather than sin. That's what I worry about, and also how I interpret 1 John 1:8, because it connects directly with 1 John 1:9 It's not a 1 time all sins wiped and if you ever sin again you're condemned again. It's also not a 1 time all sins past present future wiped with you not needing to maintain this relationship you've established. Our salvation is the beginning of a relationship with God our Father, a relationship that you don't just want to enter and then discard and go on living in sin trusting that you've sealed the deal, but you want to call your Father a lot, and when you do something that displeases Him, you come and admit guilt and seek forgiveness. That's what I get out of 1 John 1. But you are correct in what you say next partially.

    It is the goal, that is correct, but I am doubtful that people truly achieve the goal in flesh. You somehow think that not only is it the goal, but that people can and do achieve it. 1 Corinthians 15:50 is where I get my understanding that we don't become incorruptible and walk perfectly in God's will until we lose this flesh. There are 3 reasons why I disagree with Holiness/sinless perfection in flesh doctrine. #1 because I see Paul and John still talking about struggles with sin biblically. Paul called himself the chief of sinners and that was not a past tense. In reality, I see a lot of people who seem to be upstanding people, with a better walk than me, claiming that they are still absolutely wicked sinners, it's an attitude of humility that they see their own sins as being worse than everyone else's. #2 is connected, when you adopt that doctrine 1 of 2 things happens, you either stop seeing your sins as sins and claim they're just "mistakes" and justify them (turning the water on so hot that it feels cold), or you get depressed and start giving up because you recognize that you still sin so you think God has forsaken you and given you up to a reprobate mind (turning the water on so cold that it feels hot). Not that I'm saying you want to be lukewarm. You do want to be hot, you do want to wage war against sin. But when you fail, you don't give up, do as Proverbs 24:16.. you fall down.. you get back up and try again. Through sanctification you should notice improvement, you'll defeat certain problem sins like maybe alcoholism you can finally beat through the spirit, but it'll be harder to defeat all sin. I see it as a life long process of improvement. Phiippians 1:6 shows a process that goes right up until the day of the Lord, right?

    I also have to wonder though.
    How can a brother's soul be saved after the flesh is delivered up to Satan for sinning as in 1 Corinthians 5?
    Why would Paul specify that it's for the sake of saving their soul while their flesh is destroyed?
     
  17. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    What I mean by "salvation" is more or less entering into a personal relationship with God through His Son.
    before that relationship is entered, there is nothing you can do, you are a stranger to God.
    Once you are in that relationship there is some responsibility to keep that relationship a good relationship. You can go prodigal son and come back. Some people walk away from it and never come back. Biblically we're to consider that they were never adopted in the first place. You seem to believe that you can get disowned, and I am not entirely sure whether I believe that someone adopted by God can get disowned, or if there's eternal security and those who walk away who were truly adopted always come back like the prodigal son.
    I went prodigal and came back. So I do know it's possible to be adopted and leave.
    I am leaning towards the belief of eternal security in the sense that I think if people are truly adopted, they will come back.
    But part of that coming back is that they will admit their guilt to their Father, be chastised and corrected, and be forgiven.
    I'm not sure that I'm getting my belief out in the right words, my apologies if it doesn't make sense.
    it's a concept that I'm really not sure how to express and be understood.
    That eternal security is misused by people, used as OSAS in a way that makes it seem like a 1 time event rather than a relationship. But rather the security exists in the sovereignty of God. If you're truly adopted into that relationship, even if you walk away, God is sovereign and will make sure that you do not leave for good. You'll come back. Does that make sense?
    It's hard to decide myself on Calvinism and Arminianism because I see both happening simultaneously. We do have free will and free choice, but God has foreknowledge and God is sovereign. God chose people He knew would freely choose Him, and God knows that those who entered into this relationship where Father and child chose each other, that even if they leave, they will choose Him again with the right nudging. A Calvinist usually sees it as God exclusively makes the choice and it's just fate and it's impossible to choose otherwise if God chooses us.
    An Arminian will see it as you make the choice to choose God and God will let you walk away and you might just walk away forever.
    Does that make sense?
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    There is no salvation or mercy if one refuses to confess and or forsake their sin.
     
  19. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    what about a believer who causes a brother to stumble and become a hypocrite ?

    what about Peter below who was willfully practicing the sin of hypocrisy whom Paul said stood condemned ?

    what about a person living contrary to the truth of the gospel ?

    what about a person who forces younger believers in the faith to live like a hypocrite ?


    Galatians 2:11-16

    When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

    14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

    15 We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

    hope this helps !!!
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So if a believer goes prodigal, and comes back, they never lost their salvation while they were prodigal?
    If so, this is a bad message to send to others because it means one can go prodigal again and still be saved. That is why I have a problem with Eternal Security. It is saying there is nothing you can do to lose salvation. Stop for a moment. Do you believe that Eternal Security Christians sin? If so, how do they deal with sin? Do they confess and forsake such sins? Many Eternal Security Christians have told me that they will not be able to stop sinning this side of Heaven. To what degree of sin are they talking about? They obviously believe they are saved. So this means that they can sin and still be saved on some level. For example: Many in the Eternal Security camp who appear to be for holy living as a part of being a Christian believes that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved. They also said that if a believer generally lived a holy life, and he looked at a woman in lust and got hit by a bus and died, they would be saved. There is a problem with this kind of thinking. It is a justification of a little bit of evil. Remember, it only took one sin by Adam for the mess that we are in now (with the Fall of mankind). In short, a believer cannot live holy and yet admit that they will sin at some point in the future as a matter of fact. Their mind is bent to sin again and it is not set on things above and God's good ways alone.

    As for Calvinism vs. Arminianism:

    Calvinism is saying that you had no free will choice whatsoever in choosing the Lord. That the choice was made 100% by God based on no conditions (Hence, why it is called Unconditonal Election). In other words, the problem you should have with Calvinism is that God only saves a few (based on no conditions whatsoever) when He has the power to save them all. This would be wrong or immoral of God to do this because God desires the ultimate good for His creation.

    For example: In an alternate universe (and not this universe where nothing traumtic happened to you and your family): Imagine you and your family and some other people (in this alternate universe) are thrown off the boat you were on, and you are stranded in the ocean waters. Now, imagine if a coast guard appeared who seemed like he was going to save you, your children, and five other people and yet he did not save you or your children (and yet he had the power to do so), and only saved the five other people. Would you be like, “Oh, look kids, this coast guard is surely a good man. For he reminds me a lot like God who does what he pleases in regards to saving people.” Is that what you would be saying? Most likely not. You would be throwing a fit how the coast guard chose to save the others but he did not save you, and your family (in this alternate universe). You most likely would be thinking or screaming of how it was unfair. Well, most people would be thinking this way. But the staunch Calvinist wants me to accept that GOD is this way? However, GOD is so much better than any human.

    Arminians believe in Prevenient Grace (which works with Total Depravity). I believe in Partial Depravity and I do not believe in Total Depravity like Calvinists and Arminians. Instead of Arminian's Prevenient Grace, I believe in “Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s)” by God For Majority. They are similar but not exactly the same. My view takes into account that God desires all men to be saved, and it also takes into account Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8. Prevenient Grace does not also clarify that God may not make multiple attempts to try and save a person, as well. For Romans 10:21 says, “...All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.” But the major reason why I disagree with Prevenient Grace is that it is the fix to Total Depravity. But Total Depravity is unbiblical.

    I believe that God elects based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choices (1 Peter 1:1-2). So God is one step ahead of what will do. But this is based on our decision. Also, Jesus draws all men unto Himself. There are also those who receive not the love of the truth that they might be saved, as well.

    2 Thessalonians 2:10 KJB
    “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2020
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