What is the source of human conscience?

[bling]

So, do you blame the Fall on poor parenting?

NO WAY!!
Just as all parents cannot program or train their own children to make their own free will choices a particular way, God could override the free will of Adam and Eve, but they would not be able to fulfill their earthly objective without having their own free will and God is wanting to do all he can to help them fulfill their objective, so free will remains.

 

[Saint Steven]

NO WAY!!
Just as all parents cannot program or train their own children to make their own free will choices a particular way, God could override the free will of Adam and Eve, but they would not be able to fulfill their earthly objective without having their own free will and God is wanting to do all he can to help them fulfill their objective, so free will remains.

If you put a nice new toy in the middle of the play room and told your kids they could play with any toy in the room but that one, would that seem like a set-up? (for failure)

 

[FatalHeart]

Thanks, that's good.
Now, please explain what happened in the garden from your perspective.
And tell us whether the human conscience was before or after the Fall. Thanks.

Well, written on their hearts by who? It does say the heavens proclaim the glory of God and that men are without excuse. It shows God telling Adam directly and talks about the Holy Spirit going into the world to convict people. I would suggest that the origin of the conscience wasn't imbued by any specific event but simply a part of how God governs the world. Adam wasn't deceived. Eve was. But they had the leading and the absolute knowledge of what not to do. Now, in themselves, they may have had some sort of guiding toward what was right, but the Bible doesn't say, but still one can only presume about it. Knowing what something is is not necessary for knowing to avoid it. A prick of conscience isn't necessary for making a mental choice to follow one voice over another. Remember it says, "who have given up a good conscience, and so, have shipwrecked their faith." So the conscience is a tool and can be corrupted. "Seared as with a hot iron." I would think that God's voice was enough, or God would have no grounds to judge them. It's an interesting thought though.

 

[fhansen]

If you put a nice new toy in the middle of the play room and told your kids they could play with any toy in the room but that one, would that seem like a set-up? (for failure)

But there wasn't a new toy. The Tree just tells us that man has a choice to make; it represents the fact that we have limitations, that we are free to choose and can choose wrongly. It meant that we have limitations that we must acknowledge, recognizing and accepting and embracing the fact that we are creatures, and God is God, who is to be obeyed. And, incidentally, they needed to come to learn that God is worthy of this obedience as they come to love Him with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. That, love, is the only proper and authentic means to true obedience. They weren't "there" yet, in Eden.

 

[drich0150]

we consist of three parts.

The mind the physical host/receiver of the other two aspects and the controller of the carnal self. the mind is the host of the body. the mind is primitive and works on a basic level

The Spirit is the seat of physical intellect and apart of our consciousness, the spirit severs the body, it uses higher reasoning to care for and protect the intrest of the body it is our ID it is our vanity.

The Soul is the symbiot or potentially heavenly being who is tasked to serve God in this body and along side the spirit. God's people all descend from Adam (created day 3) who had a living soul breathed into him. Day 6 man was simply made in the image of God. Adam's descendants all has souls through noah and his sons. (which means all of us) The evil this world knew was the direct result of those living with mind and spirit only. The Soul is a seed the will eventually grow into a higher form on consciousness, it is our link to God, it is our material form on God's side of eternity. This is the seat of our higher functions, this is where our desire for the things/wants of God reside. our want for righteousness and our call to be something better is here.

While our bodies and minds (the old man in sin) maybe slaves to sin/romans 7, However our soul can be reborn apart from the slave section of our being, and completely belong to God. Paul chapter 8 calls this our new self. we can be free from sin in this new self even if the old man in sin can't help but sin.

Paul says our salvation will come through death when the old self dies and it's bond to sin is then broken (like our bondage in marriage is broken when one dies) then upon resurrection the uncorrupted body and spirit will be united with a soul who hates sin. This is when OUR Will becomes free. meaning we can choose not to sin and will never be forced to sin again on any level.

 

[Dave L]

That's good, thanks.
What is origin of the conscience from your perspective? Before or after the Fall?

That's hard to answer. My guess is Adam's conscience guided him in treating Eve as he would have her treat him. But after sinning his conscience condemned him. He experienced true love and became unable to continue it. Just sayin'.

 

[Saint Steven]

But there wasn't a new toy. The Tree just tells us that man has a choice to make; it represents the fact that we have limitations, that we are free to choose and can choose wrongly. It meant that we have limitations that we must acknowledge, recognizing and accepting and embracing the fact that we are creatures, and God is God, who is to be obeyed. And, incidentally, they needed to come to learn that God is worthy of this obedience as they come to love Him with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. That, love, is the only proper and authentic means to true obedience. They weren't "there" yet, in Eden.

How would you calculate the loss of this divine experiment? To God and to us.

 

[Saint Steven]

That's hard to answer. My guess is Adam's conscience guided him in treating Eve as he would have her treat him. But after sinning his conscience condemned him. He experienced true love and became unable to continue it. Just sayin'.

Thanks.
Could you also comment on God's unanswered question in Genesis chapter three? What do think this means? Scripture below.

Who told Adam that he was naked? (compare Genesis 2:25)

Genesis 3:11
And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? ...

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How would you calculate the loss of this divine experiment? To God and to us.

It cannot be calculated to either party.

 

[fhansen]

How would you calculate the loss of this divine experiment? To God and to us.

There's sort of a classic song or prayer called the exsultet that goes back centuries and includes the following:
"O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!"
And Paul tells us:
'Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more'

The idea being that God could not and would not allow evil to occur at all unless there was some greater good to come out of it. God isn't just whimsically deciding to save a few otherwise worthless wretches while damning the rest. He's producing something, so that, foreknowing the Fall would occur, He deemed it worthwhile to create anyway, knowing the beginning from the end, and knowing that something good will be the ultimate outcome, something very good. in any case a teaching I'm familiar with says that God created His world in a "state of journeying to perfection". When we include this as part of the bigger picture I think Genesis makes more sense. God certainly wasn't surprised by the Fall.

 

[Dave L]

Thanks.
Could you also comment on God's unanswered question in Genesis chapter three? What do think this means? Scripture below.

Who told Adam that he was naked? (compare Genesis 2:25)

Genesis 3:11
And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? ...

Again, it's a guess. But possibly Eve became an object of lust and self gratification. And his conscience turned the light on this. Were before they sought to gratify each other in love not thinking about self.

 

[Saint Steven]

There's sort of a classic song or prayer called the exsultet that goes back centuries and includes the following:
"O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!"
And Paul tells us:
'Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more'

The idea being that God could not and would not allow evil to occur at all unless there was some greater good to come out of it. God isn't just whimsically deciding to save a few otherwise worthless wretches while damning the rest. He's producing something, so that, foreknowing the Fall would occur, He deemed it worthwhile to create anyway, knowing the beginning from the end, and knowing that something good will be the ultimate outcome, something very good. in any case a teaching I'm familiar with says that God created His world in a "state of journeying to perfection". When we include this as part of the bigger picture I think Genesis makes more sense. God certainly wasn't surprised by the Fall.

Thanks. That's a good commentary on this.

 

[Heart2Soul]

God pointed out the consequences for disobedience, so Adam must have understood disobedience for God to communicate the consequences for disobedience. Adam was programmed (parented) to adult maturity by God his Father (Adam is not an unlearned child).
It might be "wrong" to play under a tree during a lighting storm, but it is not evil.

If their eyes were not opened to the knowledge of good and evil until after they ate then what you have is simple acts of obedience....but the free will to disobey is present but not activated so to speak until the serpent lied to them.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Hey @Saint Steven I have a question for you....Adam and Eve were created not born....all of man since then are born....so the sin nature was not in them until the act of disobedience....we are born with the sin nature...so we are given the opportunity to be saved from the curse of sin and death through Christ and we are "reborn". What was Adam and Eve's opportunity to be "reborn" since they were never born....are they saved?

This is just a curiosity question...doesn't really bear any purpose to the OP.

 

[Saint Steven]

Hey @Saint Steven I have a question for you....Adam and Eve were created not born....all of man since then are born....so the sin nature was not in them until the act of disobedience....we are born with the sin nature...so we are given the opportunity to be saved from the curse of sin and death through Christ and we are "reborn". What was Adam and Eve's opportunity to be "reborn" since they were never born....are they saved?

This is just a curiosity question...doesn't really bear any purpose to the OP.

Agreed. That is a curious question. Thanks.

As we know the "rebirth" is spiritual, not physical. As Nicodemus said, “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” - John 3:4

I suppose that Adam and Eve may have had an opportunity at the rebirth when Christ preached to the spirits in the realm of the dead before his resurrection.

1 Peter 3:19
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—

 

[Heart2Soul]

Agreed. That is a curious question. Thanks.

As we know the "rebirth" is spiritual, not physical. As Nicodemus said, “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” - John 3:4

I suppose that Adam and Eve may have had an opportunity at the rebirth when Christ preached to the spirits in the realm of the dead before his resurrection.

1 Peter 3:19
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—

Yes....but it is a "re-birth" …...they were not born....the Bible doesn't say much about them.....but I believe that God would not suffer them to eternal damnation......but then again because of their sin they caused all of mankind to be under the curse....that's a heavy burden to bear.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes....but it is a "re-birth" …...they were not born....the Bible doesn't say much about them.....but I believe that God would not suffer them to eternal damnation......but then again because of their sin they caused all of mankind to be under the curse....that's a heavy burden to bear.

Actually, they were born spiritually and even died spiritually. They needed the spiritual rebirth as much as we do. God said that on the day you eat... you will die. And they did. Not physically, but spiritually. And all their offspring have been born spiritually dead and in need of the spiritual rebirth. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Kaon]

Did something good come from something bad?

It seems that the source of human conscience, our innate ability to know right from wrong, came from the Fall of humanity in Genesis chapter three.

Was the result of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, our human conscience, that gives us the ability to know right from wrong?

Is our ability to know right from wrong the result of sinful disobedience to God?

I've been puzzling about this. Any ideas?

No.

Adam and Eve, and the early humans were much more intelligent carnally, and spiritually, than modernity gives them credit. Adam and Eve had a spirit; the literal manifestation of a conscious thought-form unique to self. That is why their sin was judged to be punishable: they knew perfectly right from wrong. They were not babies unless we compare them to spirits; otherwise they had the full spiritual intelligence.

We are actually dead now; a consciousness is a manifestation of the New Covenant: that the Law will be written on the hearts of man. Operating with respect to natural laws (made and kept by the Most High God) is carnality; even carnality begs to reunite with perfection and eternity, but is ignorant of how to attain it.

--- EDIT ---

Here's the scripture that makes me puzzle about this.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

The consciousness is an outpouring of spirit from the Most High God Himself. It is a mercy to know right from wrong, because knowledge is one of the first steps to escaping bondage. People with "no conscious" are just as carnal as people "with a conscious," it is just usually we are sometimes too ignorant to realize that part of the mercies of the Most High God is our convictions per the Holy Spirit.

 

[Saint Steven]

No.

Adam and Eve, and the early humans were much more intelligent carnally, and spiritually, than modernity gives them credit. Adam and Eve had a spirit; the literal manifestation of a conscious thought-form unique to self. That is why their sin was judged to be punishable: they knew perfectly right from wrong. They were not babies unless we compare them to spirits; otherwise they had the full spiritual intelligence.

We are actually dead now; a consciousness is a manifestation of the New Covenant: that the Law will be written on the hearts of man. Operating with respect to natural laws (made and kept by the Most High God) is carnality; even carnality begs to reunite with perfection and eternity, but is ignorant of how to attain it.



The consciousness is an outpouring of spirit from the Most High God Himself. It is a mercy to know right from wrong, because knowledge is one of the first steps to escaping bondage. People with "no conscious" are just as carnal as people "with a conscious," it is just usually we are sometimes too ignorant to realize that part of the mercies of the Most High God is our convictions per the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for your post.
Why do you think the tree was called: the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
Would that name make sense if A&E "knew perfectly right from wrong"? (when they were created)

 

[fhansen]

Hey @Saint Steven I have a question for you....Adam and Eve were created not born....all of man since then are born....so the sin nature was not in them until the act of disobedience....we are born with the sin nature...so we are given the opportunity to be saved from the curse of sin and death through Christ and we are "reborn". What was Adam and Eve's opportunity to be "reborn" since they were never born....are they saved?

This is just a curiosity question...doesn't really bear any purpose to the OP.

As I understand it, FWIW, Adam and Eve died as a result of their sin, along with all humanity that followed. So everyone needs to be born again, aka born from above, reawakened, risen from the dead. The primary state of fallen man, as I see it, that which constitutes his spiritual death, is that he's separated in some critical manner from God, 'apart from whom we can do nothing' (John 15:5), outside of the communion man was made for and the life that this communion gives us. Jesus came to reconcile man with God again so that we may have 'life and life abundantly'.

Adam & Eve, if in heaven now, would've needed to repent at some point and return to the God they had so easily dismissed and disobeyed. Jesus's sacrifice once for all time, even though centuries later in fact, would still provide the grace necessary for this reconciliation.