What is the source of human conscience?

[Dorothy Mae]

That's an interesting take on this. You are thinking it through. This raises several questions.

Adam was in the perfect position to ask God about these things.
- Why is the forbidden tree in the center of the garden?
- What is its purpose if we are only allowed to care for it but not partake?
- Why isn't the tree of life in the center of the garden?

Thank you. I have never read this anywhere. Just thought it myself. Adam listened to his wife. He did not tell her to wait or pause or disagree. What difference does it make where the tree would be? Would it having been in a corner have made a difference? I do not think so. I am not sure they had to care for it. Why do you think they had to care for the trees? Most trees do not need care. Forests grow without anyone caring for them. I do not think they had to care for it or any other tree. The work was light. Again I do not see where the tree makes a difference. Why would it?

 

[Dave L]

Did something good come from something bad?

It seems that the source of human conscience, our innate ability to know right from wrong, came from the Fall of humanity in Genesis chapter three.

Was the result of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, our human conscience, that gives us the ability to know right from wrong?

Is our ability to know right from wrong the result of sinful disobedience to God?

I've been puzzling about this. Any ideas?

--- EDIT ---

Here's the scripture that makes me puzzle about this.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

The conscience depends on knowing how you want to be treated and then it prods you to treat others likewise. But this condemns all people because nobody does this.
But the conscience can be easily deceived. Paul says if a person thinks it's wrong to do this or that, it is sin even if not sin, because whatever is not of faith is sin.

Were the suicide pilots and today's middle east fanatics bound by conscience? It is important to know what is true according to scripture and avoid those who try to bind your conscience.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Thanks.
Consider what is said in Genesis chapter three verse 22. It says to me that they didn't know good and evil (have a conscience) prior to eating the forbidden fruit.

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. …

Whatever their state before they ate, no one used ignorance as an excuse before God.

 

[bling]

How?

Adam and Eve were parented (programmed) to maturity by the greatest parent (God), since that was His job and He is the best at it. God gave a command with consequences, so God would have provided Adam and Eve with an understanding of right and wrong to communicate that command and consequences.
There was no need for Adam and Eve to know evil at this time and it would provide nothing for them.

Adam and Eve were going to sin eventually, since they had not obtained Godly type Love and the Garden scenario is a lousy place to obtain Godly type Love, but a good place to start.

 

[Saint Steven]

Here's another thought. In my first post I submitted that the "knowledge of good and evil" was just that, the literal knowledge or experience of good and evil that was unnecessary and nonexistent in their original state of innocence in Eden.

An alternative, and not contradictory, approach would be to understand that knowledge and the act of obtaining it to be man's desire to create and control his own conscience, to ignore his internal God-given constraints and laws, to play God himself IOW. Either way man begins with a conscience already in place but fails to heed it. This is where his guilt and culpability come from.

This act, this sin, was really to deny God, as God. Their job afterwards, and our job, is to find out, with His help, that God really does exist (to regain the "knowledge of God") and come to realize that He and the consciences He gave us were right all along. A teaching I'm familiar with says that, with the original sin, man divorced himself in some manner from God, from himself, from his fellow man, and from the creation around him; the original harmony was lost.

That's good. Thanks for helping to work through this.
But we have to remember the name of the tree and consider how that fits in this puzzle we are putting together. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Adam and Eve were parented (programmed) to maturity by the greatest parent (God), since that was His job and He is the best at it. God gave a command with consequences, so God would have provided Adam and Eve with an understanding of right and wrong to communicate that command and consequences.
There was no need for Adam and Eve to know evil at this time and it would provide nothing for them.

Adam and Eve were going to sin eventually, since they had not obtained Godly type Love and the Garden scenario is a lousy place to obtain Godly type Love, but a good place to start.

Do you have kids? I have two and they were not programmed at all. I never heard any parent say they programmed their children. And Adam and Eve were created as adults and so were not parented at all. Adults are not parented.

Otherwise I see no reason why Adam and Eve were going to sin eventually. Jesus did not sin eventually.

 

[bling]

No Adam only knew obedience until he "learned" disobedience and that happened when his eyes were opened and he now understood good and evil. Then his shame came upon him and he hid from God.

God pointed out the consequences for disobedience, so Adam must have understood disobedience for God to communicate the consequences for disobedience. Adam was programmed (parented) to adult maturity by God his Father (Adam is not an unlearned child).
It might be "wrong" to play under a tree during a lighting storm, but it is not evil.

 

[Saint Steven]

The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is not the same as the "tree of the knowledge of right and wrong". Our conscience is part of the original creation of Adam. Eating the forbidden fruit gave them experience of evil when their nature changed from spiritual to carnal.

It is my belief that God intended to let them eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil after they ate from the tree of life. There was no restriction on the tree of life. They could have eaten from that tree at any time. If they had eaten that first they would have been sealed in perfect goodness. Then, when the Lord gave permission, the tree of knowledge of good and evil would have given them the depth of understanding that God already has without changing their nature. But, this is only my opinion. Only God knows for sure.

Thanks for your reply. Two things.

After eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God wanted to prevent them from eating from the tree of life. Not sure whether the reverse order would have served them. Would still have been sin. What happens when you do that? Not sure. Maybe that is where we ended up anyway. We have eternal life now, yet still sin.

Furthermore, the way that things turned out was an expensive problem. Cost the Father his only begotten.

 

[Saint Steven]

Thank you. I have never read this anywhere. Just thought it myself. Adam listened to his wife. He did not tell her to wait or pause or disagree. What difference does it make where the tree would be? Would it having been in a corner have made a difference? I do not think so. I am not sure they had to care for it. Why do you think they had to care for the trees? Most trees do not need care. Forests grow without anyone caring for them. I do not think they had to care for it or any other tree. The work was light. Again I do not see where the tree makes a difference. Why would it?

God put Adam in the garden (not forest) to take care of (work) it.
The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. - Gen.2:15

The tree being in the center makes it a focal point. We always encounter things in the center of our environment more than things at the outside or corners. This made it something that was always in their way. The were caring for all the trees. And allowed to eat from all but one. So, always an issue. In fact they were probably there caring for the tree when the serpent showed up to question the whole situation.

And as you pointed out, Adam was right there to witness this whole situation. He didn't stop it. He may have been somewhat embarrassed. Because he had added to what God had said. Eve related to the serpent that they were not allowed to touch it. God didn't say that. Where did Eve hear such a thing? From Adam, I suppose. And the serpent could easily demonstrate that death would not occur from touching it.

 

[Saint Steven]

The conscience depends on knowing how you want to be treated and then it prods you to treat others likewise. But this condemns all people because nobody does this.
But the conscience can be easily deceived. Paul says if a person thinks it's wrong to do this or that, it is sin even if not sin, because whatever is not of faith is sin.

Were the suicide pilots and today's middle east fanatics bound by conscience? It is important to know what is true according to scripture and avoid those who try to bind your conscience.

That's good, thanks.
What is origin of the conscience from your perspective? Before or after the Fall?

 

[FatalHeart]

Did something good come from something bad?

It seems that the source of human conscience, our innate ability to know right from wrong, came from the Fall of humanity in Genesis chapter three.

Was the result of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, our human conscience, that gives us the ability to know right from wrong?

Is our ability to know right from wrong the result of sinful disobedience to God?

I've been puzzling about this. Any ideas?

--- EDIT ---

Here's the scripture that makes me puzzle about this.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Everything God does is righteous and good. Creating man was good. Creating the law, the ability to sin, was righteous; in setting down the law, God did what was right. The fact that it brought death is not evil either because God is right in His judgement of sin. "Did what was right become death to me? God forbid. But so that sin would be shown to be utterly sinful it produced death in me." Keep that in mind next time someone asks why God created evil. "But thanks be to God who delivers me through Jesus Christ." Now, as far as "did what was evil lead to good," it's written, "Why not rather say, as we have been slanderously reported as saying, 'Let us do evil that good may result?' -such person's condemnation is deserved." So, I assure you, God is not in the business of doing evil so that good results. Evil never leads to good -such a person's condemnation is deserved.

 

[Saint Steven]

Whatever their state before they ate, no one used ignorance as an excuse before God.

Adam blamed his wife, and God indirectly, for giving her to him. Eve blamed the serpent. Who did the serpent have to blame but himself? How was it that he was possessed?

 

[GTW27]

I think the word "hosts" is in reference to the physical cosmos.

When I was shown this verse, perhaps I should of said,by "The Lord of Host".

 

[Saint Steven]

Adam and Eve were parented (programmed) to maturity by the greatest parent (God), since that was His job and He is the best at it. God gave a command with consequences, so God would have provided Adam and Eve with an understanding of right and wrong to communicate that command and consequences.
There was no need for Adam and Eve to know evil at this time and it would provide nothing for them.

Adam and Eve were going to sin eventually, since they had not obtained Godly type Love and the Garden scenario is a lousy place to obtain Godly type Love, but a good place to start.

So, do you blame the Fall on poor parenting?

 

[Saint Steven]

Everything God does is righteous and good. Creating man was good. Creating the law, the ability to sin, was righteous; in setting down the law, God did what was right. The fact that it brought death is not evil either because God is right in His judgement of sin. "Did what was right become death to me? God forbid. But so that sin would be shown to be utterly sinful it produced death in me." Keep that in mind next time someone asks why God created evil. "But thanks be to God who delivers me through Jesus Christ." Now, as far as "did what was evil lead to good," it's written, "Why not rather say, as we have been slanderously reported as saying, 'Let us do evil that good may result?' -such person's condemnation is deserved." So, I assure you, God is not in the business of doing evil so that good results. Evil never leads to good -such a person's condemnation is deserved.

Thanks, that's good.
Now, please explain what happened in the garden from your perspective.
And tell us whether the human conscience was before or after the Fall. Thanks.

 

[Saint Steven]

When I was shown this verse, perhaps I should of said,by "The Lord of Host".

This was what you posted earlier.
Gen 2 verse 1. "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them".

Obviously in reference to the physical creation. (me thinks)

 

[fhansen]

Everything God does is righteous and good. Creating man was good. Creating the law, the ability to sin, was righteous; in setting down the law, God did what was right. The fact that it brought death is not evil either because God is right in His judgement of sin. "Did what was right become death to me? God forbid. But so that sin would be shown to be utterly sinful it produced death in me." Keep that in mind next time someone asks why God created evil. "But thanks be to God who delivers me through Jesus Christ." Now, as far as "did what was evil lead to good," it's written, "Why not rather say, as we have been slanderously reported as saying, 'Let us do evil that good may result?' -such person's condemnation is deserved." So, I assure you, God is not in the business of doing evil so that good results. Evil never leads to good -such a person's condemnation is deserved.

Yes, and the only possible good that can come from evil, from our experiencing evil, is to come to learn to identify and hate it and ultimately turn and run towards the Good, back to God from where man began. Touching a hot stove is "wrong" and to be avoided, but should play a part in teaching us not to touch it again.

 

[GTW27]

This was what you posted earlier.
Gen 2 verse 1. "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them".

Obviously in reference to the physical creation. (me thinks)

Instead of (me thinks), why don't you ask Him, He is right there with you. The question posted in this thread, could be answered as well. A relationship is not one way. Picture for a moment, a small child asking about things they do not know. Will a Loving parent not respond most of the time? Some times, the answer we receive, is in the form of a question. Such as, Has there ever been a time that man has been guilty of worshiping the host of heaven?

 

[Saint Steven]

Instead of (me thinks), why don't you ask Him, He is right there with you. The question posted in this thread, could be answered as well. A relationship is not one way. Picture for a moment, a small child asking about things they do not know. Will a Loving parent not respond most of the time? Some times, the answer we receive, is in the form of a question. Such as, Has there ever been a time that man has been guilty of worshiping the host of heaven?

I'm old enough to know that I don't know everything, nor ever will.
If we knew everything, or had ALL of our questions answered, where would faith be?
There is always at least one piece of the puzzle missing. (me knows)

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

 

[bling]

Do you have kids? I have two and they were not programmed at all. I never heard any parent say they programmed their children. And Adam and Eve were created as adults and so were not parented at all. Adults are not parented.

Otherwise I see no reason why Adam and Eve were going to sin eventually. Jesus did not sin eventually.

Right! We do not "program our children", but Adam was not "created" as a unlearned baby to find out on his own, since that would be extremely poor parenting on God's part who is responsible for this parenting training. Adam could walk, communicate, garden, name all the animals, and care for a wife which is not instinctive but learned. If the learning was instantaneous than it was programmed into Adam, but like our own children's training we cannot force them beyond their own free will.