MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟220,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
It is laziness that allows people not to see both sides of an argument, that and arrogance, wanting to continue to hold the stand you took, perhaps many years ago, when you started voicing an opinion in politics, having entered from either the right or the left.

I would suggest the right balance is to avoid the errors of each extreme, but exactly where?

That is the tough question.
 

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
8,837
3,550
N/A
✟145,210.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It is laziness that allows people not to see both sides of an argument, that and arrogance, wanting to continue to hold the stand you took, perhaps many years ago, when you started voicing an opinion in politics, having entered from either the right or the left.

I would suggest the right balance is to avoid the errors of each extreme, but exactly where?

That is the tough question.
Or... you can let dead to take care of their affairs and just search for the kingdom of God :) Much easier.

Wordly politics is always complicated and problems have no end. When one is solved, another one appears, its like Sisyphus' rolling a boulder up the hill.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,576
7,773
63
Martinez
✟893,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It is laziness that allows people not to see both sides of an argument, that and arrogance, wanting to continue to hold the stand you took, perhaps many years ago, when you started voicing an opinion in politics, having entered from either the right or the left.

I would suggest the right balance is to avoid the errors of each extreme, but exactly where?

That is the tough question.
That is why we have a "non-declared" option when voting. From there Christians should vote with their Holy Spirit filled conscience and not their flesh.
Blessings
 
Upvote 0

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟220,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
In the 2016 Election Primary Bernie Sanders used the term 'Socialist'.

It was my hope that he was going to strike a good compromise, but given how little B.O.B. had previously achieved with his well articulated speeches of 'Hope and Change', I think Bernie knew he needed a more extreme mandate to get anything done about fixing the cracks in the safety net (I hope that was his aim).

I think the safety net needs to be fixed. I've been working at and then just above the minimum wage for some years.

Although at the minimum wage I did not want my pay increased because I could see what the overall motive was, and that was to push us down one of those cracks in the 'safety net'.

Our pay was moved up to 10.00 pH and only because most of us at work were on 30 hr/wk a good number kept Medicaid though some thought they had to change to the company scheme which was a rip off, but it is a company and not a charity so that's within the rules. I went into the office to complain about the pay increase and there was already somebody else in there complaining about it.

The next year everyone in the company went onto a minimum of 11.00 an hour and I lost my Medicaid and in the year and a half since then have only had it six months.

I don't have enough money for private health insurance and too much for Medicaid, that's the crack I'm down right now. I know I'm going to have to leave to get a lower paying job.
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
8,837
3,550
N/A
✟145,210.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
In the 2016 Election Primary Bernie Sanders used the term 'Socialist'.

It was my hope that he was going to strike a good compromise, but given how little B.O.B. had previously achieved with his well articulated speeches of 'Hope and Change', I think Bernie knew he needed a more extreme mandate to get anything done about fixing the cracks in the safety net (I hope that was his aim).

I think the safety net needs to be fixed. I've been working at and then just above the minimum wage for some years.

Although at the minimum wage I did not want my pay increased because I could see what the overall motive was, and that was to push us down one of those cracks in the 'safety net'.

Our pay was moved up to 10.00 pH and only because most of us at work were on 30 hr/wk a good number kept Medicaid though some thought they had to change to the company scheme which was a rip off, but it is a company and not a charity so that's within the rules. I went into the office to complain about the pay increase and there was already somebody else in there complaining about it.

The next year everyone in the company went onto a minimum of 11.00 an hour and I lost my Medicaid and in the year and a half since then have only had it six months.

I don't have enough money for private health insurance and too much for Medicaid, that's the crack I'm down right now. I know I'm going to have to leave to get a lower paying job.

Wow. Interesting. It seems quite problematic.

Cant you pay some small health insurance covering your possible medical expenditures?

In the EU, everybody is paying obligatory health insurance (its automatically taken from the salary, you cannot influence it), children, students, unemployed, retired people get it paid by the state (i.e by working people). There is no choice "not to have it" so everybody is insured all the time.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
8,515
9,486
✟236,263.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
I would suggest the right balance is to avoid the errors of each extreme, but exactly where?
A common error is to decide the balance lies roughly mid way between the two extremes. Unfortunately, in some instances, the best solution may lie close to, or even at, one of the extremes. For example, I adhere to the extreme view that there should be zero tolerance for slavery. (If you don't think that is an extreme view, then do some reading of 18th century documents.)
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Sparagmos
Upvote 0

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟220,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Very interesting Myst, but I don't know enough to answer your post. Insurance companies do exist to make money and now I am over 65 I get Medicare which pays 80% and the supplemental insurance to pay the rest is pretty expensive. I really am better off on Medicaid which pays 100% for low income people, but I have to find another job to get it.

I would be pretty sure private insurance companies are not the answer because they add their own costs, but hospitals are agreeable and know they wouldn't be able to charge a fraction of the amount they charge if private insurance companies weren't doing the actual paying, so they funnel people into the insurance scam by over charging anyone who pays their own way, and Obama did they same by having a penalty for anyone with too much income for Medicaid but too little for private insurance he hit a whole bunch of us for 695 a year for not being able to afford the bronze Obama care plan, the cheapest one.

But don't get the impression I'm the only one confused, a nearby hospital has more administrators working out how to charge for 'care' they give than they have beds. The point being that private insurance pays some, medicare some, and the patient has to pay the rest and in my experience nobody can be sure who will pay what until the private insurance refuses three times then it goes to medicare and then after three times to the patient who might not have any money left so then it goes to the state which pays a fraction and it ends there.

Part of the problem is government paid care, Medicare or Medicaid I understand does not pay for medical investigations but only for treatment, but treatment begins with diagnosis so that could be where a lot of uncertainty lies.

I was in for blood tests and was told there was no way to find out if Medicaid would pay for the tests until they refused three times, then it would be all my responsibility. Well actually it is part of the Medicaid system, the charges first go to the MCO Medical Care Organisation that is between the patient and the government provided funding, and if they pass them then they get passed to Medicaid.

It has got simpler since the MCO is only allowed to take 15% of whatever funding they are dealing with so it seems now they just approve everything that makes sense and live very well indeed off that 15%.
 
Upvote 0

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟220,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
A common error is to decide the balance lies roughly mid way between the two extremes. Unfortunately, in some instances, the best solution may lie close to, or even at, one of the extremes. ...

I think two points in the line between everyone gets the same amount of income and resources (the Levelers) and a totally cut throat capitalist free for all,

are the English political parties of the 1960s, the Labour Party on the left and the Conservative Party on the right.

The Conservative Party primarily favored equality of opportunity, so it was against monopolistic practices such as the stranglehold the medical system and big pharma have here were forbidden, and still are, and good appropriate schooling was provided free for everyone along with free school meals.

That was the Right wing end of the spectrum then and there and should still be where the Right end is now. It would make America great.
 
Upvote 0

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟220,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Both parties agreed there had to be provision for those who can not provide for themselves.

The Labour Party wanted a bit more in the way of equality of result, some redistribution of wealth through the tax system.

I think in the end it was decided that was partly harming the incentive to work harder but more it was just unnecessary and the aspirations of the Labour Party to get the USSR into British politics was just not acceptable.

Unfortunately British politics did not remain between those two points and Neoliberalism has nuked the political scene there just as it has here, we are only now making an attempt to put things back to sanity but it will cost money whatever route is taken. But we are a step ahead of Britain because they have to get out of the EU and then as Nigel Farage pointed out, work out what they actually want.
 
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
8,515
9,486
✟236,263.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Both parties agreed there had to be provision for those who can not provide for themselves.

The Labour Party wanted a bit more in the way of equality of result, some redistribution of wealth through the tax system.

I think in the end it was decided that was partly harming the incentive to work harder but more it was just unnecessary and the aspirations of the Labour Party to get the USSR into British politics was just not acceptable.

Unfortunately British politics did not remain between those two points and Neoliberalism has nuked the political scene there just as it has here, we are only now making an attempt to put things back to sanity but it will cost money whatever route is taken. But we are a step ahead of Britain because they have to get out of the EU and then as Nigel Farage pointed out, work out what they actually want.
Thank you for your response. I understood from your OP that you wished to discuss the practical and philosophical aspects of the spectrum of viewpoints. This interested me. However, based on your comments here and your earlier posts it seems you are more interested in arguing some specific viewpoints.
Those topics of too much interest to me at present. In addition your grasp of 1960s British politics seems rather simplistic, so any discussion might soon deteriorate into a heated exchange. Thus, thank you for your time, but I'll withdraw.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟220,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I can see why people use fictional countries, real ones are just too complicated.

My intent was to place two points somewhere between the extreme ends of the Left-Right spectrum and to state as an example, where I personally today would place my preferred spot on the Left - Right spectrum.

So my fictional country is the land of Bingo and the two parties are the Workers Party and the Investors Party and one significant detail is many of the workers are investors and many of the investors are workers. But the Workers Party is somewhat to the Left of the Investors Party, each with their own preferences but both interested in the overall well being of the nation.

It is my belief that the United States should be aiming to be somewhere between the positions of those two parties, the one on the left favoring somewhat more equality of result but still a very long way from Communism and not allowing the claimed benefit of society to take away the rights of the individual.

And the Investors Party would refrain from 'buying elections' and promoting corruption but be limited to working in a framework that benefits the public, employees and the nation.

Wow, try to get that to work!
 
Upvote 0

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟220,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I would like to bring in overall wealth as a variable, that if the nation is on the verge of starvation then there would be a drive to increase equality of distribution to ensure people don't starve, it would be somewhat like Biblical Israel with tithes and Jubilee Years,

but that as the amount of wealth increases so starvation is not a fear, nor dying of the cold in the winter, then wealth will become less of a concern and people will spend more time becoming the kind of person they want to become and those around them would want them to become, and developing the interests and skills they feel happiest with.
 
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
8,515
9,486
✟236,263.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
"No-one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Winston Churchill 1947
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,473
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,087.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
It is laziness that allows people not to see both sides of an argument, that and arrogance, wanting to continue to hold the stand you took, perhaps many years ago, when you started voicing an opinion in politics, having entered from either the right or the left.

I would suggest the right balance is to avoid the errors of each extreme, but exactly where?

That is the tough question.

Sometimes it's laziness, sometimes it's pride... but often it's simply mental rigidity and low intelligence.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: MorkandMindy
Upvote 0

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟220,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
... low intelligence.

Most people can hold three thoughts in mind at once, and one or more of those can be a category that contains a whole bunch of other thoughts but these are inside it so the number in actual simultaneous comparisons is usually three.

But I've met people who can only handle two and I know someone who can hold just one at a time and that makes me think of a dog, which when thinking of a hat forgets that he is a few hundred feet up, because dogs are single minded, and it always makes me think of this dog in particular: (start at 1min 20s perhaps, don't worry, nothing goes wrong)

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟220,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
But there is a lot of hope for people of normal intelligence

The problem is information no longer travels from person to person but instead the media pours it direct, unfiltered and unchecked into our brains and we just don't have the time to run even a basic consistency check on it let alone factual checks.

So I'm attacking in myself and to a limited extent in CF, only the biggest and most hazardous bad ideas (bad memes) we are carrying around.

And one of these is that we have to shift to socialism. That is far too drastic a change, we don't need to change everything, but we do need to root out the extensive corruption in our country, and if we did go to socialism the corruption would just follow us there anyway (actually it would already be there waiting).

And as long as the corrupting elements have us arguing they can rob us as they are doing right now.

That is the reason for mentioning 'balance'. When we are polarized at the ends of the spectrum we can only argue, the right place to be is in the middle and we can have a constructive conversation and make wish lists about what we would want to do once we removed the corruption and got to the middle.
 
Upvote 0

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
16,347
10,241
Earth
✟137,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
But there is a lot of hope for people of normal intelligence

The problem is information no longer travels from person to person but instead the media pours it direct, unfiltered and unchecked into our brains and we just don't have the time to run even a basic consistency check on it let alone factual checks.

So I'm attacking in myself and to a limited extent in CF, only the biggest and most hazardous bad ideas (bad memes) we are carrying around.

And one of these is that we have to shift to socialism. That is far too drastic a change, we don't need to change everything, but we do need to root out the extensive corruption in our country, and if we did go to socialism the corruption would just follow us there anyway (actually it would already be there waiting).

And as long as the corrupting elements have us arguing they can rob us as they are doing right now.

That is the reason for mentioning 'balance'. When we are polarized at the ends of the spectrum we can only argue, the right place to be is in the middle and we can have a constructive conversation and make wish lists about what we would want to do once we removed the corruption and got to the middle.
Google “confirmation bias” and “cognitive dissonance”; you’ll find a lot of information about why people believe what they believe.
 
Upvote 0

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟220,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Very true, those factors lock people into the positions they already hold.

But I've recently (well today) come to suspect that it is also the distance between the positions that makes it impossible to have a meaningful conversation and makes it easy for people to ridicule each others stances. Neither Joseph Stalin nor Genghis Khan have leadership styles we should waste our time advocating. We really do need to move to the middle and stop arguing and start agreeing.

As long as we argue corruption runs wild.
 
Upvote 0

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
16,347
10,241
Earth
✟137,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Very true, those factors lock people into the positions they already hold.

But I've recently (well today) come to suspect that it is also the distance between the positions that makes it impossible to have a meaningful conversation and makes it easy for people to ridicule each others stances. Neither Joseph Stalin nor Genghis Khan have leadership styles we should waste our time advocating. We really do need to move to the middle and stop arguing and start agreeing.

As long as we argue corruption runs wild.
Yes, yes, “come together is a wonderful sentiment but we cannot even agree on which facts are FACTS.
Trying to find consensus on issues requires that we all operate with the same understanding of “what is true”.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

MorkandMindy

Andrew Yang's Forward Party
Supporter
Dec 16, 2006
7,401
785
New Mexico
✟220,487.00
Country
United States
Faith
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Ideally we would collect all the facts before reaching a conclusion,

but there are too many facts, and we come across them in clusters of many like facts, often the ones in school history books first and more accurate stuff later,

it would take a long time to verify which are true and to collect enough and to search them for timeless truths

so we take a short cut of just using what is to hand and our own personal preferences come and presto we have an opinion.

that's part of being a human. We reach conclusions, they may not be right but we hope they aren't too wrong. A computer may beat Kasparov but it doesn't have the sense or ability to come in out of the rain. A dog may starve to death exactly in the middle between two equally tasty bones. But humans reach a decision in the time available and it is usually not a bad one, that's heuristics. (actually that dog won't starve either, it isn't totally logical).
 
Upvote 0