What is the reformed Calvinist's view on the pro-Israel movement among Christians

[nasa1]

It means that there are Jews who are of the elect. That is all.

I totally agree with you. Just wanted to be clear!

Thank you!

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[nasa1]

yes he most certainly is , being a member of the tribe of Benjamin means nothing if God's people are merely replaced by the Church . It is ridiculous to even mention Jewish decendancy if God has finished with the Jews , He hasn't !

Yes, but Paul said in galatians that it is not the physical descendents that are God's children, but only those of the faith of Abraham, those who believe in Jesus.


Being a physical descendent has nothing to do with election. Look at what Jesus told the Jews in John chapter 8. When the Jews claimed to be Abraham's descendents, He agreed. But when they tried to call themselves Abraham's children, Jesus denied it. There is a big difference between being a child of Abraham (as everyone in Christ is) or a descendent. Even John the Baptist said to the Pharisees , "Do not start saying to yourself, "We have Abraham as our father." (as an excuse for not submitting to the L-rd.)


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[cygnusx1]

Yes, but Paul said in galatians that it is not the physical descendents that are God's children, but only those of the faith of Abraham, those who believe in Jesus.

Hi nasa .

Israel are Elect ;

For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.Isa.45:4


Israel is God's spouse ;

"For your Maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is his name, and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer" (Is 54:5).

Israel is God's child. ;


Hos.11

[1] When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

The beloved nation of Israel is viewed as a whole entity (Romans 11) , when Paul distinguishes between children of Abraham and those who are not Abraham's children it is secondary election , unto salvation (Rom 9) that is in view.

Being a physical descendent has nothing to do with election. Look at what Jesus told the Jews in John chapter 8. When the Jews claimed to be Abraham's descendents, He agreed. But when they tried to call themselves Abraham's children, Jesus denied it. There is a big difference between being a child of Abraham (as everyone in Christ is) or a descendent. Even John the Baptist said to the Pharisees , "Do not start saying to yourself, "We have Abraham as our father." (as an excuse for not submitting to the L-rd.)

It has everything to do with election , the nation were chosen , they were like no other (still are) and God sent them Christ , these are God's people , notwithstanding some of them were unfaithful , that unfaithfulness does not and cannot make God unfaithful over them.

Rom.3

[1] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
[2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
[3] For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
[4] God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


one more time let us ask ;

Rom.11

[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

 

[nasa1]

Yes, and Paul said that not everyone from Israel is Israel.

If you are saying that Israel is every Jewish person that ever lived, no, that is not who Israel is. You have to look at those scriptures in the light of the church, the true fulfilled Israel.


You are still looking at this through descendency. That has nothing to do with election.

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[cygnusx1]

Yes, and Paul said that not everyone from Israel is Israel.

If you are saying that Israel is every Jewish person that ever lived, no, that is not who Israel is. You have to look at those scriptures in the light of the church, the true fulfilled Israel.


You are still looking at this through descendency. That has nothing to do with election.

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there are two elections nasa.

Romans 11 deals with national election of a nation , and what is to become of her.

Romans 9 deals with individual election .


If decendancy has no meaning what becomes of Covenant theology , why do the Reformed baptise their children ?

If decendancy has no meaning why are the promises to Abraham transfered to his son and his son etc ?

If the decendancy means nothing why does Paul use his own decendancy as a major answer to the question "has God finished with the Jews" .... ?

why mention belonging to a tribe of Benjamin if God has withdrawn His love and support for His people Israel ?

It is time all Christians recognised that Gentile Christians are merely additions to the vine called Israel , some were broken off because of their unbelief , and Gentiles are grafted onto the vine against nature ; into the people of God , Israel.

The only replacement hinted at in Romans 11 is NOT the Church replacing Israel , as if , it is simply Gentile Christians 'replacing' fallen - God hardened Jews.

God has not seen fit to uproot Israel , to cast her off , to divorce her , even if some Jews have proven unfaithful , God's promises to Abraham and his OFFSPRING remain unchanged , God has sworn and cannot lie.

 

[bradfordl]

If decendancy has no meaning what becomes of Covenant theology , why do the Reformed baptise their children ?

This from my dear Baptist friend?

 

[cygnusx1]

This from my dear Baptist friend?

precisely brad , I am more covenant minded than many Reformed , the irony !

 

[nasa1]

there are two elections nasa.

Romans 11 deals with national election of a nation , and what is to become of her.

Romans 9 deals with individual election .


If decendancy has no meaning what becomes of Covenant theology , why do the Reformed baptise their children ?

If decendancy has no meaning why are the promises to Abraham transfered to his son and his son etc ?

If the decendancy means nothing why does Paul use his own decendancy as a major answer to the question "has God finished with the Jews" .... ?

why mention belonging to a tribe of Benjamin if God has withdrawn His love and support for His people Israel ?

It is time all Christians recognised that Gentile Christians are merely additions to the vine called Israel , some were broken off because of their unbelief , and Gentiles are grafted onto the vine against nature ; into the people of God , Israel.

The only replacement hinted at in Romans 11 is NOT the Church replacing Israel , as if , it is simply Gentile Christians 'replacing' fallen - God hardened Jews.

God has not seen fit to uproot Israel , to cast her off , to divorce her , even if some Jews have proven unfaithful , God's promises to Abraham and his OFFSPRING remain unchanged , God has sworn and cannot lie.

God's promises were for Abraham and his Seed, Jesus Christ. Paul says that the covenent was not made between "many" Jewish people, as it is thought by many, but to the Seed only.

I never said that God has cast off earthly Israel. If He did, He would not have taken Paul from earthly Israel and put Him into His true group, the spiritually reborn.

So it still has nothing to do with decendency, but rather with God's choice to save whom He will save.


Galatians 3:6,7
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.



Baptism does not guarantee salvation.

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[cygnusx1]

God's promises were for Abraham and his Seed, Jesus Christ. Paul says that the covenent was not made between "many" Jewish people, as it is thought by many, but to the Seed only.

I never said that God has cast off earthly Israel. If He did, He would not have taken Paul from earthly Israel and put Him into His true group, the spiritually reborn.

So it still has nothing to do with decendency, but rather with God's choice to save whom He will save.

if God hasn't cast off Israel and belonging to the Covenant is nothing to do with decendancy then what is Israel ?

Galatians 3:6,7
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

yes , physical decendancy does not guarantee salvation.

Baptism does not guarantee salvation.

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yes , I am a Baptist , and baptism doesn't save anyone..........



God's promises are multiple , they include promises to the patriarchs and their offspring.


"For all the earth is mine: and you shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation" (Exodus 19:5, 6). "The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people; but because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your ancestors." (Deuteronomy 7:7, 8).


(God said to Abraham) I WILL ESTABLISH MY COVENANT BETWEEN ME AND THEE AND THY SEED AFTER THEE IN THEIR GENERATIONS FOR AN EVERLASTING COVENANT-Gen 17:7. ISAAC...I WILL ESTABLISH MY COVENANT WITH HIM…AND WITH HIS SEED AFTER HIM-Gen 17:19. IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED-Gen 21:12.
(God said to Isaac) I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM THY FATHER-Gen 26:3.
(To Jacob from Isaac) GOD ALMIGHTY...GIVE THEE THE BLESSING OF ABRAHAM, TO THEE, AND TO THY SEED WITH THEE-Gen 28:3,4.
(God said to Moses) I APPEARED UNTO ABRAHAM, UNTO ISAAC, AND UNTO JACOB...AND I HAVE…ESTABLISHED MY COVENANT WITH THEM...I HAVE REMEMBERED MY COVENANT-Ex 6:3-5.
(God said to Abraham) I will BE A GOD UNTO THEE, AND TO THY SEED AFTER THEE-Gen 17:7. I WILL BE THEIR GOD-Gen 17:8.



(Book of Amos 3:2): "You only have I singled out of all the families of the earth: therefore will I visit upon you all your iniquities."

 

[nasa1]

Galatians 3

15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed,"meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.



Now, who are the Seed? The children of G-d, the children of promise, like Isaac. Everyone who belongs to G-d belongs to Jesus. Yes, Isaac was Abraham's descendent, but so was Ishmael. What does Paul say about Ishmael? Ishmael represented those not chosen of G-d, who are not children of promise. He represents those of earthly Israel not chosen for salvation, who do not inherit the promises but are slaves.



The Abrahamic covenent was made between Jesus and Abraham, not many Jews. If you are in Christ, like David was, like Issac was, like all Christians are today - then you are Abraham's Seed and heirs according to the promise.


If it has to do with descendency, then Ishmael would have been just as much a child of promise as Issac was!


Galatians 3
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



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[cygnusx1]

Galatians is refering to salvation (so is Romans 9) , yet Romans 11 is dealing with God's Covenant promises to Israel , they are enemies of the Gospel but and this cannot be stressed enough , they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers !

Romans 11

[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

if being in covenant with God is not to do with the seed / decendency then Isaac and Jacob etc would not have been chosen .............


(God said to Abraham) I WILL ESTABLISH MY COVENANT BETWEEN ME AND THEE AND THY SEED AFTER THEE IN THEIR GENERATIONS FOR AN EVERLASTING COVENANT-Gen 17:7. ISAAC...I WILL ESTABLISH MY COVENANT WITH HIM…AND WITH HIS SEED AFTER HIM-Gen 17:19. IN ISAAC SHALL THY SEED BE CALLED-Gen 21:12.
(God said to Isaac) I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM THY FATHER-Gen 26:3.
(To Jacob from Isaac) GOD ALMIGHTY...GIVE THEE THE BLESSING OF ABRAHAM, TO THEE, AND TO THY SEED WITH THEE-Gen 28:3,4.
(God said to Moses) I APPEARED UNTO ABRAHAM, UNTO ISAAC, AND UNTO JACOB...AND I HAVE…ESTABLISHED MY COVENANT WITH THEM...I HAVE REMEMBERED MY COVENANT-Ex 6:3-5.
(God said to Abraham) I will BE A GOD UNTO THEE, AND TO THY SEED AFTER THEE-Gen 17:7. I WILL BE THEIR GOD-Gen 17:8.

 

[JacobHall86]

My position is that God's Israel today is the Church. The country called Israel today is just another nation of mostly unbelievers, and of no eschatological import.

But on a present day geopolitical plane, they are a far better choice as allies than anything else around them, a far more equitable society, and in their conflicts with their neighbors are light years ahead of their enemies in the morality of their conduct. So I side with them on most if not all issues, but not for eschatological reasons. Palestinians are a particularly detestable group of people.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[FreeInChrist2]

How about instead of Israel being replaced by the church, Israel has been exspanded to include the gentiles, thus is the church (spiritual Israel) and invisible at that, not necessarily the visible church nor physical Israel. So as Israel the country is not the church and Jews have been cut from the olive tree, yet Jews all around the world are included in the invisible church even today. And as God has promised Israel, the Jews, the cut off olive branch will one day be grafted back into the olive tree... elect Jews and gentiles.

The question I would have concerning the re-grafting of the olive branch is, would that mean all Jews at that time and from then on? And would the invisible church then be the visible physical spiritual Israel, the bride of Christ?

Perhaps it's time to get away from replacement theology, replacing it with extension or expansion theology.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

What confuses me is the great lengths Zionist Christians will go to in their support of a state that is far from an ally to Christianity.

 

[bradfordl]

What confuses me is the great lengths Zionist Christians will go to in their support of a state that is far from an ally to Christianity.

Me too. Seems this dispy stuff will drive people to all sorts of strange ideas.

 

[Elderone]

What confuses me is the great lengths Zionist Christians will go to in their support of a state that is far from an ally to Christianity.

The Israelis have a very, very, good propaganda machine. The average Christian doesn't know about or understand what is going on.

 

[cygnusx1]

the church has a good propoganda machine the average Christian doesn't know or understand what is going on !

 

[Elderone]

the church has a good propaganda machine the average Christian doesn't know or understand what is going on !

That also, although far too many church officers are ignorant of the facts and not merely covering them up, which is equally bad.

 

[nasa1]

How about instead of Israel being replaced by the church, Israel has been exspanded to include the gentiles, thus is the church (spiritual Israel) and invisible at that, not necessarily the visible church nor physical Israel. So as Israel the country is not the church and Jews have been cut from the olive tree, yet Jews all around the world are included in the invisible church even today. And as God has promised Israel, the Jews, the cut off olive branch will one day be grafted back into the olive tree... elect Jews and gentiles.

The question I would have concerning the re-grafting of the olive branch is, would that mean all Jews at that time and from then on? And would the invisible church then be the visible physical spiritual Israel, the bride of Christ?

Perhaps it's time to get away from replacement theology, replacing it with extension or expansion theology.

I can agree with that.

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[nasa1]

The Israelis have a very, very, good propaganda machine. The average Christian doesn't know about or understand what is going on.

True. What is sad though is when the pro-Israel Christians do know about the bad side of Zionism and yet do nothing to stand up for what is right and fair, beleiving that a Jew has more right to the land than a palestinian Christian.

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