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WHAT IS THE REAL GOSPEL?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveGodsWord, Mar 11, 2021.

  1. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of the gospel being all the word of God...

    CAN WE HAVE GOD'S GRACE IN THE NC WITHOUT GOD'S LAW? (Part 1/2)

    From the scriptures it was shown God's grace is linked to MERCY and PEACE and TRUTH because all of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death. *Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23. But God so loved our world that he sent his only SON to die on our behalf for the sins that we all have committed in order to bring us back to GOD.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Romans 8:3-4 [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

    God's grace is shown that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

    Romans 5:6-10 [6], For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    [7], For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. [8], But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [9], Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [10], For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    This leads us to the next question.

    CAN WE HAVE GOD'S GRACE IN THE NC WITHOUT GOD'S LAW?

    If we are all sinners in need of a Savior for all of us have sinned according to Romans 3:23. If we do not know that we are sinners will how can we see God's grace? Notice this next question from Jesus to the Pharisees that thought they were righteous in God's eyes.

    Matthew 7:12-13 [12], But when Jesus heard that, he said to them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. [13], But go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    and again...

    MATTHEW 5:20 [20], For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    According to the scriptures Jesus came to magnify the law from the inside out quoting Matthew 5:17-32 (thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *Isaiah 42:21. This is to show that unless our righteousness exceeds or is greater than the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 5:20. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. Evil begins in the heart *Mark 7:21; John 5:42; Jeremiah 18:12 which is why we need to be born again *John 3:3-7 into God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 and receive a new one *Ezekiel 36:24-27.

    Jesus says that it is the breaking of any one of God's 10 commandments from the heart is what defiles a man in Matthew 15:18-19. Jesus is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *Matthew 23:27-28. Jesus magnified the law to the inside out. To show us that we are all sinners in need of a Savior and that sin originates in our heart (thoughts and feelings). That is why we have the new covenant promise and need to be born again by Faith in God's Word for God's salvation is to be set free from the sins we have become a slave to (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *John 8:31-36; Romans 6:1-23

    If we are not born again *John 3:3-7 into God's nee covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 and continue in it we will not enter the kingdom of Heaven *1 John 2:3-4; John 3:3-7. All those who knowingly break any one of God's 10 commandments stand guilty before God of sin according to James *James 2:10-11. All those who knowingly continue in unrepentant sin will not enter into God's kingdom according to Paul in *Hebrews 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *Romans 6:23 and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God's grace *Hebrews 10:26-31. God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments in God's WORD. The same as there is no scripture that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

    Righteousness comes from love because love is the fulfilling of God's Law in all those who believe and follow God's Word and is the very expression of what love is according to Romans 13:8-10. He that does not love does not know God for God is love according to John in 1 JOHN 4:8. All those who are born again have a new heart to love and follow God *1 John 4:7. This is the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12.

    According to God's Word those who are born again to love do not practice sin (breaking God's Commandments) *1 John 3:4-9. This is why John finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 John 5:2-3 and is why Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments *John 14:15. Unless we are born again under God's new covenant promise to give us a new heart to love we will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven *John 3:3-7 as we need to be changed from the from the inside out and God's salvation is from the inside out.

    CAN WE HAVE GOD'S GRACE WITHOUT GOD'S LAW?

    Absolutely not! "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick." (Matthew 9:12-13). The purpose of God's law is to show us that we have all sinned and are all sinners in need of God's salvation from the great Physician. God's law is the schoolmaster that leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. This also includes God's 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments according to Exodus 20:8-11; Hebrews 4:9

    We will go more into this question in PART 2 of this post....

    God bless.
     
  2. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    Please show me in the Bible where "God's eternal law" is spelled out as such. Even a cursory reading of the Pentateuch reveals that all of God's commandments which he gave to His people, Israel, were to be obeyed. None of them were temporal and all of them had any sell-by dates.
     
  3. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    No problem. Firstly please stop trying to make arguments no one has said or are making. No one has ever once said to you that there are not other commandments in God's Word that he wants us to believe and follow. So please don't pretend I am making arguments no one is making.

    Now as to your question as to God's 10 commandments being God's eternal law?

    We read in the scriptures that God's 10 commandments were the direct spoken Words of God in Exodus 20:1-17. We also read in the scriptures that Gods' 10 commandments are the work of God alone, written with God's own finger on two tables of stone here...

    • And God spoke all these words saying... (10 commandments) - Exodus 20:1-17
    • And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God... - Exodus 32:16
    • Written with the finger of God - Exodus 31:18
    ...........

    So do you agree that Gods' 10 commandments are the direct spoken Words of God and the work of God alone that God made and no one else? Then consider these scriptures

    ...........

    Whatever God does himself is forever...

    Ecclesiastes 3:14 [14], I know that, whatever God does, it shall be forever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God does it, that men should fear before him.

    God made the 10 commandments with his own finger therefore they are forever (Exodus 32:16-18).

    ...........

    God's 10 commandments were the direct spoken Word of God (Exodus 20:1-17)

    1 Peter 1:25
    But the word of the Lord is forever. And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

    Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

    Isaiah 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.

    Matthew 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an dot or tittle, will pass from the Law until all is fulfilled.

    Matthew 4:4 But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’

    ............

    Conclusion: God's 10 commandments are the direct spoken Words of God and the work of God alone therefore are eternal according to the scriptures. Now that the scriptures have been shared with you, do you believe the scriptures shared with you show that Gods 10 commandments are God's eternal law?
    I see so you still believe you should be making animal sacrifices every time you sin. Well you better find yourself a Levite Priest and an earthly Sanctuary if that is your belief. Or you could read John 1:29; John 1:36; Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22 that show that these "shadow laws" are now fulfilled and continued in Christ to who they pointed to based on better promises under the new covenant *Hebrews 8:1-6.

    Your welcome.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
  4. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    I realize your post was made somewhat in jest, but my dedication to incarnational theology and my keen sense of Trinitarianism prompted me tlo write a serious reply. However, in writing such a reply, rest assured that the focus is predicated solely on a pedantic desire for encyclopedic triadological accuracy. Thus:

    Actually, he would not be limited to the Ten Commandments; indeed, the Ten Commandments would actually be excluded. God the Son, Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Logos, has an actual mouth, from which he spoke words on numerous occasions in the New Testament, and more likely than not, in the Old Testament. Since God the Father is regarded as an unoriginate spirit (as opposed to God the Holy Spirit, Who is uncreated, but does eternally proceed from the Father), and since the Father is boundless, limitless and uncircumscribed, an infinite ocean of being and the highest and ultimate fullness of all qualities and perfections, as the Cappadocians St. Basil the Great and St. Gregory the Theologian expressed it, it seems unlikely that it was the Father who Moses interacted with, as with a man, in Exodus 33:11 - this rather was likely an example of an Old Testament Christophany.

    Likewise, the Burning Bush (which is still alive, at St. Catharine’s monastery in Sinai, and is a very beautiful and luxuriant bush), being illumined by a non-destructive spiritual fire, as well as the columns of smoke that guided the Israelites across Sinai, are surely instances of the Holy Spirit. However, it is quite possible that the voice heard by Moses at the Burning Bush was God the Father, as His voice is recorded as being clearly heard at the but it could also have been God the Son.

    Here is a list to summarize what we know from the Bible (and to a lesser extent, annotated in each case, the Ecumenical Councils) about the attributes of communication for each person of the Trinity:

    God the Father
    - An omnipresent spiritual being, entirely uncircumscribed and inscrutable
    - No one can see Him and live
    - His voice is audible

    God the Son
    - The only begotten son of the Father, who for our sakes became incarnate of the Blessed Virgin Mary (Luke 1) having been conceived miraculously by the Holy Spirit. (Luke 1, Matthew 2)
    - Exists in a hypostatic union of a human nature and a divine nature, without change, confusion, separation or division. (The doctrine of the Ecumenical Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon).
    - Having a body and thus a mouth, He can communicate with humans as a friend, for He is fully human and fully God. This entails full verbal communications.
    - He reveals God the Father, and no one approaches the Father except through Him.
    - Nonetheless, at times, such as the Transfiguration on Mount Tabor, He becomes superluminous, which corresponds with Moses being cautioned not to look at the face of God, and the superluminosity of his countenance when ne returned to his people, which was so bright as to cause discomfort and prompt complaints.

    God the Holy Spirit
    - Appears in the form of distinct visual apparitions, for example, the dove descending on Christ in the Transfiguration and the tongues of fire emerging from the mouths of the Apostles on Pentecost.
    - Indwells in the faithful Christians who have received the seal of the Holy Spirit.
    - Inspired the authors of sacred scripture
    - Inspires the small number of extremely advanced ascetics in certain monastic traditions with the gift of prophecy.
    - Is not on record as having spoken audibly.

    Based on the above, we can conclude that God the Son very frequently interacted with Moses, whereas only those theophanies involving apparitions and/or a heavenly voice, such as the Burning Bush, can be attributed to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
     
  5. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    So, am I correct in thinking that somewhere in the Bible it states something to the effect of, "These are God's eternal commandments." and "These are not God's eternal commandments."?
     
  6. Freth

    Freth Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus, in His own words:

    Matthew 5:18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Matthew 19:16-21 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
     
  7. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    Wow! I never knew that one of God's eternal commands was to sell everything I have and give it to the poor. I am in very deep trouble. Have you sold everything you have and given it to the poor?
     
  8. Freth

    Freth Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

    Actually, yes, I have given away much of my possessions to the poor. It's an ongoing process, I have a lot of junk. I live a simple life in a meager pension.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
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  9. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    Not in the least. The very words of Jesus Christ in the passage you quoted commanded the man to sell everything he owned and give it to the poor. I requested a scripture passage which stated "These are the eternal commandments of God" and you quoted that passage. Do you not believe that the commandments of Jesus Christ are eternal?
     
  10. Freth

    Freth Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As per the quoted scripture in my post, Jesus points directly to the Ten Commandments. Jesus taught the law and the prophets. Your question has been answered.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
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  11. HIM

    HIM Friend Supporter

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    Due to the rich young ruler's boast it is obvious that the words spoken after
    are for him at that time due to his own issues.

    " All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him..."

    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2021
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  12. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    CAN WE HAVE GOD'S GRACE IN THE NC WITHOUT GOD'S LAW? (Part 2/2)

    Can we have GRACE without God's LAW if the purpose of God's LAW is to give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172?

    This same question is linked to what JESUS says to the Pharisees in MATTHEW 7.

    MATTHEW 9:12-13
    [12], But when Jesus heard that, he said to them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. [13], But go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    JESUS tells the PHARISEES to go learn what it means when he says; They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick; I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    HOW DO WE KNOW THAT WE ARE SINNERS IN NEED OF A SAVIOR? HOW DO WE KNOW THAT WE ARE SICK IN NEED OF A PHYSICIAN? JESUS is saying that it is these that he has come for NOT those that think they are RIGHTEOUSNESS and have no need. SIN is breaking any one of God's 10 Commandments *JAMES 2:10-11; ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4

    God's LAW is to give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. The purpose of God's LAW is to show us that we are all sick with SIN and in need of a SAVIOR. God's LAW (10 commandments) lead us to the true PHYSICIAN JESUS so we can be healed. God's LAW is the mirror we look into to see ourselves as God sees us full of SIN from the INSIDE OUT.

    It is God's LAW that leads us to cross of our LORD and SAVIOR where we behold the LOVE of GOD has for us in that while we were yet SINNERS Christ died for us that whosoever should BELIEVE on him should not PERISH but should have everlasting life *ROMANS 5:6-10; JOHN 3:15-16. God's LAW leads us to the CROSS of JESUS where we have our eyes opened to God's LOVE for us and to see JESUS dying for the sins that we have done in order to bring us back to GOD. This is God's gift to all who BELIEVE and accept the GIFT of JESUS, His DEATH for our SINS. The purpose of God's LAW is to lead us to CHRIST that we might be FORGIVEN by FAITH by accepting his death for our SINS *GALATIANS 3:22-25.

    ..............

    CONCLUSION: CAN WE HAVE GOD'S GRACE IN THE NC WITHOUT GOD'S LAW? The answer as shown in the scriptures above is NO! It is God's LAW (10 commandments) that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. It is God's LAW that leads us to God's GRACE found in his only begotten son that whosoever BELIEVES in HIM should not perish but have everlasting life. If is God's LAW that leads us to the CROSS that we might be FORGIVEN by FAITH. If you do not know you are sick you have no need of a Physician. If we have no KNOWLEDGE of SIN we have no need of a Savior.

    God bless.
     
  13. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    Jesus did not refer directly to the Ten Commandments as "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS". Rather, he merely quoted a few of the commandments (note that He was silent concerning the fourth commandment) and then He added another commandment.

    If what he said was the "eternal commandments" of God then you are not free to pick and choose among them as to which you wish to obey. So, in order to inherit eternal life, Jesus eternally commands everyone to go and sell all that they have a give it to the poor.
     
  14. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    See above. If, as you say, Jesus' response was to be merely applied to one individual only, then none of His response applies to anyone else. The fact of the matter is, however, Jesus' point to this chap was that eternal life is humanly unattainable by obedience to God's commandments.
     
  15. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Jesus quoting any of the 10 commandments is context that Jesus is talking about the 10 commandments is it not? I do not understand your argument.
     
  16. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily.
     
  17. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Really and why is that? For example the context and subject matter of the scriptures provided are God's 10 commandments....

    Matthew 19:16-21
    [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.
    [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
    [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
    [20], The young man said to him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
    [21], Jesus said to him, If you will be perfect, go and sell that you have, and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

    Paul agrees with Jesus here...

    Romans 13:8-10
    [8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law.
    [9], For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
    [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    James agrees with Jesus and Paul here..

    James 2:10-11 [10], For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law.

    The context and subject matter here is the 10 commandments. Which also includes God's 4th commandment by the way which is one of God's 10 commandments. James says if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin because sin according to John is the transgression of the law in 1 John 3:4.

    Take Care.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  18. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures, God's 10 commandments are Gods' eternal laws that give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and teach us how to follow God as we are born again to walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4 through faith *Romans 3:31. You were also provided scripture showing God's 10 commandments are Gods' eternal laws from the scriptures in a previous post you did not respond to earlier *see post #763 linked. I think you missed it. If all the Word of God is the gospel or God's good news of salvation through faith in God's Word then we should be careful to believe and follow what Gods' Word says, don't you think?
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  19. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    10 commandments point to God's law Romans 3:21,22..10 commandments is NOT God's Law..
     
  20. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    According to the scriptures the purpose of God's 10 commandments in the new covenant is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and teach us how to follow God as we are born again to walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4 through faith *Romans 3:31. Therefore God's 10 commandments which include God's 4th commandments which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken does not point us to the law but points us to Christ so that we receive God's Grace, mercy and love through forgiveness of sins as we have faith in the blood of Christ and the death and resurrection of Gods dear son.
     
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