What is the purpose of going to church?

[A_Thinker]

Jesus said his Church would be "the light of the world." He then noted that "a city set on a hill cannot be hid" (Matt. 5:14)

Actually, Jesus said that His followers were the light of the world. He went on to say that noone lights a lamp and hides it under a bushel ... and that a city set upon a hill cannot be hidden. He finished His speaking on this subject by saying, again to His assembled followers ...

Matthew 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

He didn't speak of establishing a church until much later in Matthew's narrative.

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus.

This is debatable, as the church of the New Testament bears little resemblance to the Catholic church which has existed, some would say, since around 300-400 AD. Nearly every other church body could claim the same type of tenuous relationship to the New Testament church (i.e. based upon Biblical principals/examples).

Apostolic succession continued through the ordination of presbyters (priests) and bishops. Titus 1:5-9 *For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you, on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious.

Married priests ... with children ? Yet another discrepancy between the New Testament church and the Catholic church of today.

Note that I have no objections to Catholics claiming christian heritage (i.e. from Christ). But it is a bit much for them to claim exclusive christian heritage.

 

[Arsenios]

This is just a big bunch of baloney,

Hooey McPhooey, I say!

Love y'er style!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The church of the New Testament bears little resemblance to the Catholic church which has existed, some would say, since around 300-400 AD.

The Church was persecuted pretty heavily the first few hundred years, until the yoke of persecution was lifted by Constantine... Then came the recording of the Services of the Church, which are all of the same orders in all places and times held by all... Ethiopia dropped off the map for more than a thousand years, was "re-discovered" a few hundred years ago, and Her Christian Praxis and Faith is the same as those of the Copts, the Armenians, and the Eastern Orthodox... A thousand years without change...

How did the NT Church differ from, say, that of the Church of the first thousand years? And how do you know what first Century Services looked like?

Arsenios

 

[LoveofTruth]

This is just a big bunch of baloney, ...Today we assemble in church buildings

No, I am afraid what you said is a bunch of baloney.

Nowhere do we find such a thing as a "church building" in the new testament referring to the church that Jesus Christ is building. The church is the body of Christ a spiritual house made up of living stones.

And the early church met for some 300 years or so in homes until the man made religeous forms quenched that around Constantines time. The building projects and man made religious temple type of places hindered the church function.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans Chapter 8 says. "See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."

This is when some of the error crept in contrary to scripture and many other areas.

The religious buildings of man and the babel buildings and pagan type structures hindered the function of the church and still does

 

[Truth Lover]

The church is the body of Christ a spiritual house made up of living stones.

Christ did not leave behind an anarchy in the leadership of his church. That is what is meant by Jesus building his church on the rock of Peter. His church is a visible church. That has been the understanding of the church until Martin Luther needed to get around his excommunication by the Pope. Ironically, after saying that Scripture is the sole source of authority, Luther had to found the Lutheran church to get control over the heterodox teachings of other "reformers."
Consider these verses:
Matthew 18:5 "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

Explain how one can take the issue to "the church" if the church is invisible? You can't turn to the Church as an authoritative decider of disputes if you can't locate the Church in the first place.

1Timothy 3:14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, 15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
How do you get instructions on how to act from an invisible body of believers? If you answer that your denomination's convention decides these things, then show me how every single member of Christianity decides things?
Ignatius of Antioch speaks of a visible Church when he outlines its nature in 107 AD, marking it, for the first time of which we have record, as the "Catholic Church": "Where the bishop is found, there let the people be, even as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

Only a visible, authoritative Church could have set in place the pillars that would support Christian belief and practice through the ages. Here are a few examples:
1. Codification of the Bible. The Bible did not codify itself, did not specify which books, among many, were to be seen as inspired. A visible, authoritative body, comprised of bishops, decided the content of the canon.
2. The worldwide councils. Christianity's doctrinal parameters have been charted by the ecumenical councils, now numbering 21, each conducted under the authority of the visible, universal Church. Not once in those 21 sessions did an "invisible" group of bishops meet and deliberate. 3. The Lord's day. The Christian Sunday replaced the Saturday sabbath of the Old Testament. The visible Church made this change.
4. Christmas and Easter. The Bible nowhere mentions the word "Christmas" or the date for Christmas. The celebration of Christmas on December 25 was a decision of the Church. (The feast didn't arise all by itself.) Much the same can be said for Easter as a feast separate from the other Sundays which commemorate the Resurrection. It was a visible Church, headed by a definitely locatable pope, that settled the dates of observance for the two key feasts.
5. The calendar. It is Christ's visible Church, its reach extending into the secular realm, which has given us the Gregorian calendar, named after Pope Gregory XIII.

It took a visible church that had visible authority to condemn heresies in the early church. Here is a list of them.
Adoptionism - God granted Jesus powers and then adopted him as a Son.
Albigenses - Reincarnation and two gods: one good and other evil.
Apollinarianism - Jesus' divine will overshadowed and replaced the human.
Arianism - Jesus was a lesser, created being.
Docetism - Jesus was divine but only seemed to be human.
Donatism - Validity of sacraments depends on character of the minister.
Eutychianism - Jesus finite human nature is swallowed up in His infinite divine nature.
Gnosticism - Dualism of good and bad and special knowledge for salvation.
Kenosis - Jesus gave up some divine attributes while on earth.
Marcionism - An evil God of the O.T., good God of the N.T., only 11 books in the Canon of Scripture
Modalism - God is one person in three modes.
Monarchianism - God is one person.
Monophysitism - Jesus had only one nature: divine.
Nestorianism - Jesus was two persons.
Patripassionism - The Father suffered on the cross.
Pelagianism - Man is unaffected by the fall and can keep all of God's laws.
Semi-Pelagianism - Man and God cooperate to achieve man's salvation.
Socinianism - Denial of the Trinity. Jesus is a deified man.
Subordinationism - The Son is lesser than the Father in essence and or attributes.
Tritheism - The Trinity is really three separate gods.

 

[Truth Lover]

Matthew 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

He didn't speak of establishing a church until much later in Matthew's narrative.

Don't you think that maybe Jesus had a visible church in mind when he said this?

This is debatable, as the church of the New Testament bears little resemblance to the Catholic church which has existed, some would say, since around 300-400 AD. Nearly every other church body could claim the same type of tenuous relationship to the New Testament church (i.e. based upon Biblical principals/examples).

Can they claim continuity of leadership or are these ecclesial communities an offshoot from someone who was excommunicated as Luther was?

[/QUOTE] Married priests ... with children ? Yet another discrepancy between the New Testament church and the Catholic church of today.[/QUOTE]
The Catholic Church has some married priests, mostly men who have converted from Anglicanism or Episcopalian groups. Celibacy is a that was a reform measure to prevent nepotism and church money being given to heirs. It could be changed and will soon be discussed for places like the Amazon where there is a severe shortage of priests.

[/QUOTE] Note that I have no objections to Catholics claiming christian heritage (i.e. from Christ). But it is a bit much for them to claim exclusive christian heritage.[/QUOTE]
Since the reformers changed significant doctrines that had been in the Catholic Church since the beginning, how can you claim Protestant churches have the same right to claim the same full lineage?
50 Reasons Why Martin Luther Was Excommunicated

 

[Open Heart]

Nowhere do we find such a thing as a "church building" in the new testament

So what?

• Nowhere in the NT do we find altar calls, but there's nothing wrong with them.
• Nowhere in the NT do we find church pot lucks, but there's nothing wrong with them.
• Nowhere in the NT do we find the word "trinity" but trinitrianism is still true.
• Nowhere in the NT do we find that we should "take Jesus as our personal Lord and savior," but it's probably a really good idea.

 

[A_Thinker]

Don't you think that maybe Jesus had a visible church in mind when he said this?

Jesus said that His followers would be known by their LOVE for one another, ... rather than their affiliation with any particular community.

"By this shall all men KNOW that you are my disciples ... that you have LOVE for one another." John 13:35

Can they claim continuity of leadership or are these ecclesial communities an offshoot from someone who was excommunicated as Luther was?

The excommunication one should be concerned about is only that one which comes from God.

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Since the reformers changed significant doctrines that had been in the Catholic Church since the beginning, how can you claim Protestant churches have the same right to claim the same full lineage?

One would have to demonstrate that early Catholic doctrines have justification in the early church which we read about in scripture, and are not just the "traditions of men".

 

[LoveofTruth]

So what?

• Nowhere in the NT do we find altar calls, but there's nothing wrong with them.
• Nowhere in the NT do we find church pot lucks, but there's nothing wrong with them.
• Nowhere in the NT do we find the word "trinity" but trinitrianism is still true.
• Nowhere in the NT do we find that we should "take Jesus as our personal Lord and savior," but it's probably a really good idea.

The church is the body of Christ a spiritual house made of lively stones. Not a man made babel building established in the traditions of men.

The very function of the church and the reality of the church is clouded by mans false church and mans religious forms.

Believe what scripture teaches and not the commandments of men that turn from the truth. We are warned about the commandments and traditions of men by Jesus.


"22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body,..."(Ephesians 1:22,23 KJV)

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house..."(1 Peter 2:5 KJV)

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church:..."

1 Timothy 3:15
"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

And the church (as a called out assembly of believers in Christ meets in their house

"
Romans 16:5
Likewise greet the church that is in their house...."

Colossians 4:15
Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Explain how one can take the issue to "the church" if the church is invisible? You can't turn to the Church as an authoritative decider of disputes if you can't locate the Church in the first place.

The church is the body of Christ.

This is a spiritual reality in the kingdom of God and in the hearts of all where God rules.

The church is subject unto Christ and in the spirit they walk and listen and receive from him.

Our fellowship is in the mystery of Christ. Paul beheld their order even though he wasn't with them in the flesh. He beheld it in spirit.

But yes we are in these physical corruptible bodies for now and in the spirit we are to bring them into subjection and still gneed to gather together and wait on the Lord for revelation, gifts, ministry and all good things. This order is God's order moving among believers as they are in Christ and led by the Spirit. This order functions best in the set order Paul delivered to the churches. And the way they met and where they met and what was allowed wen they met. The freedom of God to move among the body is a prime issue. Anything that hinders the freedom of the Spirit is quenching the Spirit and hindering the function of the church in Christ. Paul shares, by Jesus Christ giving the commandments to him, the order for the churches . We see such order mentioned all over, specifically in 1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,11, Colossians 3:15,15, Ephesians 4:11-16, 1 Thess 5:11, Romans 12:1-8, 1 Cor 12:7-, etc

But when we see man's traditions and commandments making the word of God of no effect and not allowing body ministry and instead having a one man over all to be the director of all the activities. This hinders body ministry. They also set themselves up in unbiblical places called "church buildings" and the pews are all facing forward to the exalted man on the platform or altar etc. This causes the body to look at the back of eachothers heads and to be drawn away after the man exalted over all. They are not taught to wait on the Lord and use their gifts as scripture commands. The very unbiblical structures called "church buildings", fights against the order and body ministry.

"22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body,..."(Ephesians 1:22,23 KJV)

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house..."(1 Peter 2:5 KJV)

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church:..."

1 Timothy 3:15
"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

And the church (as a called out assembly of believers in Christ meets in their house

"
Romans 16:5
Likewise greet the church that is in their house...."

Colossians 4:15
Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.

 

[A_Thinker]

Nowhere in the NT do we find altar calls,

I'd take exception to this one ...

Matthew 11:28-30 "Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, ... and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy ... and My burden is light."

 

[LoveofTruth]

Christ did not leave behind an anarchy in the leadership of his church.

Jesus rebuked the entire forms of government in the gatherings we see today in many places he said

"25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:"(Matthew 20:25-27 KJV)

Yet, this is exactly what we see today, with men lording over others in exalted positions and a false clergy (so called, though unbiblical) laity ( so called though unbiblical) division. Some even call themselves "masters", "Popes", "Reverend", "worship", etc.

True authority flows from Christ the head through the entire body and as we live and speak the word of God. Elders are simply more mature brothers who are able to feed others. Babes are unskillful in the word of righteousness, but they can still use their gifts and speak forth as God leads.

We have no need that any man should teach us as John said in 1 John 2:27 KJV. The anointing teaches us all things. Yes God gives teachers, but they are in Christ and led by him, so we are in a sense not listening to man, but to the Spirit in the body leading. Paul said when they received the word they received it not as the word of men but as it is in truth the word of God.

Some even questioned Jesus authority, this was the religious leaders. Jesus didn't have authority as they understood, he was not an earthly king or leader as they recognized. But he spoke as one having authority. His life and word and being was the authority.


"Paul said to the church,

“Not that we have dominion over your faith but are helpers ..” (2 Cor. 1:24).

The word “dominion”, here means “to rule: have dominion over, lord, be lord of...(from 2962),...supreme in authority, ie (as a noun) controller. By implication, Master (as in official title..)...” (Strongs Concordance. # 2961). Jesus also warned of such a false dominion and authority over others (Matthew 20:25-27), and said “it shall not be so among you”.

Yet in many gatherings today, this person called “The Pastor”, is exalted above all others as he stands on top a large platform behind a “pulpit”. He is the one who dominates and has preeminence over all others and does most of the speaking week after week. He generally rules in a large castle-like structure unbiblically called “the church” with lower ranked servants under him. Sometimes he has a sign outside with his name on it. Many flattering titles are given to him such as, “Reverend”, “Master of Divinity”, or “President”, and he uses expressions such as “My church” or “My people”. Scripture warns against one man in and exalted role having the preeminance over all in the church (3 John 9,10, 2 Cor 11:12,13,20, Acts 20:29-31, Col 2:8, Job 32:31,32) and Jesus said “Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ” (Matt. 23:8,10).

Almost all of the activities in the assembly today are controlled by the Pastor and no one is permitted to speak or minister unless he allows it. There is rarely opportunity for anyone else to minister as Christ leads, for they are not on the man made programs in man’s order. Many are unaware of their freedoms in the body of Christ and even if they were, they would be afraid to speak as God leads them, fearing the disapproval and rebuke of the pastor. Many dangerously look to this one man alone for all their spiritual guidance in the assembly, rather than wait on God and to be led by the Spirit in mutual edification of one another in God’s order.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The Church was persecuted pretty heavily the first few hundred years, until the yoke of persecution was lifted by Constantine... Then came the recording of the Services of the Church, which are all of the same orders in all places and times held by all... Ethiopia dropped off the map for more than a thousand years, was "re-discovered" a few hundred years ago, and Her Christian Praxis and Faith is the same as those of the Copts, the Armenians, and the Eastern Orthodox... A thousand years without change...

How did the NT Church differ from, say, that of the Church of the first thousand years? And how do you know what first Century Services looked like?

Arsenios

The church order and function and what the church looked like in the bible is totally different from the Easyern Orthadix or Catholic or many of the so called “churches” today

The difference is so dramatic

And we have many scriptures of how the church looked when they met in homes

They gathered together in homes, greeted one another with a holy kiss. They brought food and all had a meal together with the bread and cup as well among the full meal. They continued in the apostles doctrine, prayer, fellowship. They could all wait in the Lord for ministry and edifying one another 1Cor. 14:26-38,1 Peter 4:10,11,Colossians 3:15,16, 1 Thess 5:11, Christ worked in the entire body to edify itself Ephesians 4:11-16

They had plurality Of humble male elders. Though for a time some church gatherings had no elders and they were all commended to let the Word of Christ dwell in them and build them up.then when elders matured they would be recognized .

They had no man made religious Babel buildings unbiblically called “churches” . They had no high exalted man called a “priest” over them doing sacrifices. They had no Lord’s over the flocks and no false division of the so called “clergy” over the so called”laity”

They had no special dress for eldets in long robes to be seen of men or calling men “masters” of divinity etc

They had no “services” or programs or pre arranged “sermons” no bible schools or semetaries, I’m mean seminaries

Many of these man made traditions came afterwards and with the so called “church fathers” and from much later with the traditions of men, not from scripture or the record of scripture and church order.
Etc

 

[Truth Lover]

This is when some of the error crept in contrary to scripture and many other areas.

The religious buildings of man and the babel buildings and pagan type structures hindered the function of the church and still does

Jesus rebuked the entire forms of government in the gatherings we see today in many places he said

Hebrews 10:24 "and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near."
Since we are commanded by Paul to meet together, do you propose that the 1500 families in my parish stand out in the cold, rain and snow? A church building is a necessity. They can't all fit in a house.

"25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:"(Matthew 20:25-27 KJV)

Yet, this is exactly what we see today, with men lording over others in exalted positions and a false clergy (so called, though unbiblical) laity ( so called though unbiblical) division. Some even call themselves "masters", "Popes", "Reverend", "worship", etc.

Titus 1:5-9 *For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you, on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious. For a bishop as God’s steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain, but hospitable, a lover of goodness, temperate, just, holy, and self-controlled, holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.
Why would Titus be ordered to ordain priests and bishops if Paul did not intend for there to be an authority structure?

Priests and bishops are representatives of Christ and do their ministry through the kingship of Christ. Jesus founded a church (not churches) under the authority of Peter and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Is Jesus a liar? Matt 16 references a passage in Isaiah 22:22 where the prime minister of King David's court was being replaced. He was given the keys of the kingdom, which means he had the authority to act on David's absence. While Jesus is physically absent, he gave the keys of his kingdom to Peter and his successors.

 

[Open Heart]

Believe what scripture teaches and not the commandments of men that turn from the truth. We are warned about the commandments and traditions of men by Jesus.

The CHURCH of the living God which is the pillar and foundation of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15

 

[Open Heart]

I'd take exception to this one ...

Matthew 11:28-30 "Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, ... and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy ... and My burden is light."

What does this verse have to do with altar calls?

 

[A_Thinker]

I'd take exception to this one ...

Matthew 11:28-30 "Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, ... and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy ... and My burden is light."

What does this verse have to do with altar calls?

Altar calls are, essentially, "come to Jesus" opportunities ...

 

[Arsenios]

The church order and function and what the church looked like in the bible is totally different from the Eastern Orthodox or Catholic or many of the so called “churches” today

The difference is so dramatic

And we have many scriptures of how the church looked when they met in homes

OK - Let's see how...

They gathered together in homes, greeted one another with a holy kiss. They brought food and all had a meal together with the bread and cup as well among the full meal. They continued in the apostles doctrine, prayer, fellowship. They could all wait in the Lord for ministry and edifying one another 1Cor. 14:26-38,1 Peter 4:10,11,Colossians 3:15,16, 1 Thess 5:11, Christ worked in the entire body to edify itself Ephesians 4:11-16

This is very common in early Orthodox ministries... Do you not greet your brethren with a holy kiss? Do you know what a holy kiss actually IS??

They had plurality Of humble male elders. Though for a time some church gatherings had no elders and they were all commended to let the Word of Christ dwell in them and build them up.then when elders matured they would be recognized.

Totally Orthodox...

They had no man made religious Babel buildings unbiblically called “churches”.

Who built YOUR house of worship??

They had no high exalted man called a “priest” over them doing sacrifices.

Neither do the Orthodox...

They had no Lord’s over the flocks and no false division of the so called “clergy” over the so called”laity”

Neither do the Orthodox...

They had no special dress for eldets in long robes to be seen of men or calling men “masters” of divinity etc

They had vestments similar to those of the Jews...
Masters of Divinity??? Not Orthodox...

They had no “services” or programs or pre arranged “sermons” no bible schools or semetaries, I’m mean seminaries

They were trained by the Apostles, and did the 7 Services of the Hours daily, and consecrated the Gifts in Services...

Many of these man made traditions came afterwards and with the so called “church fathers” and from much later with the traditions of men, not from scripture or the record of scripture and church order.
Etc

Do you have any evidence?

Arsenios

 

[Open Heart]

Altar calls are, essentially, "come to Jesus" opportunities ...

No, altar calls are more specific than that. An altar call happens at the end of a worship service, when the pastor or evangelist pleads for anyone who hasn't received Jesus as their Lord and Savior to come forward and pray. He will then either lead a group prayer for all those kneeling at the figurative altar, or there will be others that come forward to pray with the penitents. The altar call is virtually always accompanied by soft moving music. It is, basically, a highly emotional appeal.