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What is the point of God's judgement of America and other countries?

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by VCR-2000, Jan 6, 2021.

  1. VCR-2000

    VCR-2000 Well-Known Member

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    I have been reading a lot of Christians believing God is going to bring judgement to America and other places like Europe and unfortunately I believe them to be correct very very soon because of light of current events in the world. Bad things have been going on for a while now and it's going to get worse and worse until total destruction happens. I know about it possibly happening, but the question is why. I know that God has a different mind and ways than us all, but that doesn't make me feel less nervous and frustrated.

    I use an analogy of a country that is being ruled by a group who is oppressing people and another group that is wanting to fight back. The country is an enemy with another country that punishes them by sending a nuclear blast that kills everybody and everything in the entire country, including the side who is supporting that country who is punishing them. Why does God need or want to cause wrath and destruction upon the entire world or countries, including his own people. There are a lot of people including his who want to live their lives and have goals. Basically, what is the point of global justice when there is the destruction and wrath upon not just wicked people and things, but it impacts godly or good people and things too? That kind of makes the restoration of things moot and irrelevant.
     
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  2. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God said, Satan is the god of this world and everyone in the world is under His rule. Satan came into the world to murder mankind and destroy God's creation.

    We all became subjects of Satan, when we rebelled against God and made Satan our god and master.
    The current world situation is the same as it has always been, we just have better technology which enables us to kill each other more efficiently. Wars, hatred and murder have been the way we live since Cain murdered his brother Abel.

    God's people have always been hated, persecuted and murdered from the begging of human history. The Bible tells us that the whole of creation moans and groans under the weight of sin, awaiting it's redemption. So there will be no peace until the Prince of peace returns and destroys His enemies.
     
  3. mikeforjesus

    mikeforjesus Senior Member Supporter

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    You have to overcome and be strong those who do not have love for others and hope they are destroyed are not ready to make it for only those who love others to be saved are Jesus sheep. If they really think you need church yet one should not rejoice in others being punished but invite people to church and not show any judgement or support they show contempt to Protestants to wish to charge them as having preached wrong because they have more trust in their church and do not know yet know the love of jesus but we need to forgive them and hope they will come to know the depth of jesus love for others still which they still need in their churches

    It is not God judgement but the principalities who have been trying to control people to feel they should please men and control people by terror of a unjust God and are getting mad that people are being saved and they worship Satan they don’t want to be saved.
    I apologise if it is not true and they just feel they have to maintain peace or if they are sharing the faith innocently without truly desiring to instill fear and want others to think other religions are more acceptable to God as though they care more about morals than protestants having the impression of an alliance between the 2 that no Protestant has morals.

    Because it seems to be the principalities which I thought it possible others wilfully work for them for even church people do not have to through their teaching despise protestants and if they did from the beginning it could be false but maybe they didn’t but God allowed them to create a tradition and these principalities just want us to believe we should submit to Him from fear even if we are not sure such a God is fair and the biblical God who loves people and wants to save all who believe in Him and do what is right as He is the way the truth and the life and that is why He was sent. It is necessary to believe in Him and confess Him because they have to believe our God teaches the truth and they are required to care for others to be following the truth to repent

    This looks like it could be the plan if many religious people are open to following the beast if they are against Jesus Christ

    David said I will not be afraid if ten thousand surround me

    when unbelievers pretend to accept Christ and show respect to religious powers so as to try to make them compromise Christianity because of fear or if they are against other christians and want to persecute them yet remain in their religion you know they follow the wicked schemes of the principalities that rule them
    Perhaps satan is angry so he wants to instill fear of end times because he is losing or maybe his time has come and is short so he has great rage

    I am believing baptism is to be saved on death others can disagree and believe it essential but I teach it is just to be saved upon death and one should do it

    People need to be baptised to be saved upon death and maybe communion too so one should do both when there is chance

    Luke 21:20-24
    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2021
  4. VCR-2000

    VCR-2000 Well-Known Member

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    About the historical part, I get where your point is.
    But why would God need or want to allow Satan to be the king of "this world" (when God in fact created the physical earth itself) for all the past not decades, not centuries, but literally all of human history itself. Why would human history need to be put to an end for God to "make the world great again"? And I imagine implications, like how everything we may enjoy in this life, like even the most "wholesome" media like films and television like the "Leave It To Beaver" would be awful or too unwholesome by God's standards.
     
  5. alllivesmatter

    alllivesmatter EL ROI

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    We are living it.
     
  6. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you read Romans 1, you will find out how God judges individuals and nations. Basically, He leaves us to ourselves. The human race is well able to destroy itself, as Americans are finding out right now.

    God's judgement begins with the church. When the church goes astray, you will find that the nation follows. Yes, looking at you, American Christians. If you think this is extreme, ask yourself where the 7 churches in the book of Revelation are today. You will find that they are just ruins, tourist attractions in Turkey, an increasingly hard line Muslim nation. Those churches could and should have overcome. They were overcome by their enemies because they failed to heed the Word of the Lord.

    I'm advising the current young generation to learn Chinese. It will come in useful when China replaces the US as the world leader.
     
  7. GDL

    GDL Well-Known Member

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    And you will find out that the judgment is in play and has been progressing for some time. Read how it reveals itself - what the indications are.

    When the big event(s) come, the fact that it has been a process that brought us there will be lost on most. There is normally time for repentance, until there is not.
     
  8. GDL

    GDL Well-Known Member

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    And some of us are well aware. Thanks for the message.
     
  9. GDL

    GDL Well-Known Member

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    You see the worsening, so you're paying attention. And you know the worsening can lead to an event(s).

    Aussie Pete pointed you to Romans 1. Reading that chapter, starting mainly at 1:16, what do you see as the issue that God has with those this section of Scripture speaks of? Being agnostic, how do you see yourself fitting into the description of those described in 1:18-21?

    You brought up Christians and Aussie Pete also spoke of the [perceived] church in America. Firstly, not all that's called "church" is the Church (using a word I normally don't use). And, all who call themselves "Christians" are not necessarily Christians. Basically the church in America is a mess and is part of the problem.

    Another section of Scripture I'd point you to is Acts 17:22-34, where Paul (who also wrote Romans), states a similar thing at issue: ignorance about God (17:30) that needs to be repented of before judgment comes. Again, how do you see yourself fitting into this picture?

    Another section would be Psalm 2. In verse 2 the LORD"s Anointed ("Christ") is ultimately Jesus the Christ. You should be able to gather from reading this short Psalm that opposition to Him is ultimately dealt with harshly - with His wrath.

    This all boils down to the same thing, and it will until the conclusion. Submission to the authority of God through faith in and obedience to Jesus Christ. God will ultimately have His righteous standards adhered to. That's the Biblical end-game for this world.

    Read John 4:21-26. Jesus spoke of the worship of God several times in these few verses. This word "worship" actually means "to bow in obeisance." Ultimately all knees shall bow. Until then, all these experiments in various forms of human government will ultimately fail and fall under judgements of God as people continually reject who He is (back to the Romans 1 issue). While these human experiments are allowed to go on, we will all get to live through whatever phase of judgment we're born into.

    Biblically speaking, there's ultimately no neutrality in this matter. And there's no assurance that Christians will not have to experience whatever devastation may come about. FWIW, I too see the worse & worse you speak of. Some years ago I didn't think I'd live to see things peak. In more recent years, I came to think differently. Time will tell, I guess...
     
  10. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God has always had His prophets and always warns people in advance. Derek Prince was talking about these things in the 1970's. We ignore such warnings at our peril. There is much talk about a world wide revival. I'm far from convinced. Lord Jesus is building His Church and it will overcome. What happens before that day, I do not know. And it may well have little to do with the Western church. I'd not be surprised to see Christians in the Muslim nations and North Korea be at the forefront. It costs to be a Christian in those places. They are for real, not playing at church.
     
  11. GDL

    GDL Well-Known Member

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    And periodically I come across writings of others from different parts of the world that have communicated these things long before the 1970's. Some of the things perceived and said in the US a century to two ago are astounding. The boil is slow allowing for the repentance.

    There's always such talk. IMO mostly as part of the circus some call church.
     
  12. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God has allowed Satan to be the god of this world, because Satan managed to deceive Adam and Eve into joining him in his rebellion against God. He also managed to deceive one third of the Angels to join him.

    We need to remember that Satan is the most powerful and the most wise and intelligent creature in the universe. Only God Himself is more wise and powerful, so we are dealing with an extremely powerful enemy.
    Men are no match for Satan or any of His Fallen Angels/Demons. A single Angel killed 186,000 Assyrian soldiers, so that shows us how weak we are in comparison to them. They're also super intelligent, so they know how to manipulate the physical realm.

    God is not able to just stop Satan in his tracks, as that would obviously go against His nature. It would give Satan a reason to mock God and to accuse Him of being a sore loser. So, God has allowed Satan and His Demons and His people to bring about their own condemnation. He has set a date for their judgement, so they will all pay for every single sin in the eternal lake of fire.

    John 3:16 tells us that God so loved the world (which means cosmos or created universe) that He gave His only begotten Son, so that those who believe in Him wouldn't perish but have everlasting life. The cosmos includes the natural and animal kingdom, who are also suffering under the rule of this evil god.

    The apostle Paul said, that the suffering we endure in this short life is not worthy to be compared with the joy that awaits us in eternity.
     
  13. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    Luke 13:1
    Repent or Perish
    1There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had [a]mingled with their sacrifices. 2And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
     
  14. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First, when God judges people He leaves them over to their depravity. In other words, He stops preventing them from doing in action the evil of their hearts.

    That is what Judgement is.. it's giving absolute freedom to people to do whatever they desire.

    He leaves them over because they continually reject Him, and the Truth... He gives tons of time for people to change, and when they still refuse He let's them go.

    Does this have the potential to hurt His own people? Of course!

    But the suffering and persecution of innocent people does cause a different action, when people see evil they have a tendency to recognize good, and more people end up turning to God.

    That's why you see huge church growth in the most horrific of circumstances. Iran's underground church is growing. Why? Because of persecution, because when evil is on full display it's far easier to recognize the good.

    When the sun is out there is so much light you can't see the stars that are there in the sky... but take away the light of the sun and the stars are brilliant and bright. It's the same with evil. Stop restraining evil and let it run it's course, and that which is good and true becomes brilliant and bright - it shines like stars shine against the night sky.

    The point of this life, for the believer, isn't this life. It's our relationship with God both here and in the next life.

    If you suffered for a short time but your suffering led many to salvation would you think it was worth it? Most people who have a real relationship with the savior would think it was.... because the point is God and His glory, not man.

    As far as being under God's judgement, we've been there for a while now... it's just steamrolling now..
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
  15. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For the most part I agree with you. I'd just like to point out that Satan became god of this world because Adam allied himself to Satan and against God. Adam was not deceived. Eve was. God gave Adam complete authority on earth. Adam surrendered that authority to Satan. Lord Jesus took it back and gave it to the church. When the church, as in all who are born again, rises up in who we have been made to be already, Satan will be finished. He knows this, hence his efforts to deceive, confuse, distract, discourage and hinder the church in every way possible. Satan is making a concerted effort to silence the church by so-called "progressive" laws. How long before it's illegal to say that people are sinners? Soon enough, I reckon.
     
  16. JohnDB

    JohnDB Regular Member

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    A lesson from history.

    No matter what happens with God's chosen they are collectively "touching" that which is holy.
    Man is sinful.

    The Children of Israel were scourged by Egypt until God led them out into the Wilderness so He could free them.
    They rebelled while there.
    God scourged them some more over 40 years until their obedience was almost perfect.

    They rebelled more...every time they were punished.

    They finally got expelled from the Holy Land for disobedience. Then brought back.

    The Early church underwent a "cleansing" of persecution. It was painful and horrible.

    This latest is more about the same. Pandemic and riots and false prophets and leaders exposed left and right.

    It's a choice we can make. We can learn or we can be stubborn and get some more... probably worse.
     
  17. Dan1988

    Dan1988 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your right, Adam was deceived by default. His wife convinced him to sin, then Adam blamed his wife and Eve blamed the Serpent so they were passing the buck in an attempt to play the victim.

    In Mark 3:27 Jesus announces the end of Satan's dominion. He describes Satan being bound, so He can no longer hold God's people in bondage. He exposed the scheme of the enemy and now He can't deceive us with His lies any longer.

    Satan can and does oppress, hinder, persecute and kill God's people but He can never deceive us or steal our eternal joy and safety in the Lord.

    We don't despair as the world does, they store their treasures here and then they despair when they see them being removed or destroyed or stolen. Many of the martyrs sang hymns while they were being taken to burn at the stake, they continued to praise God while they were burning.

    We can expect more persecution and Satanic oppression as man waxes worse and sinks into ever deeper depths of depravity. Everyone who God has appointed to salvation will be saved, so we don't need to worry that someone might miss out because of false doctrine or Demonic deception.
     
  18. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    MOD HAT ON

    [​IMG]

    MOD HAT OFF
     
  19. VCR-2000

    VCR-2000 Well-Known Member

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    Not literally agnostic, for the umpteenth time. :)

    But why is it not fair by God's standards that humans get to have their own experiments? That makes it sound like God's own desire and will are most important and negate the "goodness" or gift of our own free will. Our own free will is a curse if anything, if it means we can choose to do horrible ungodly things. All freedom, liberty, all that which America happened to be traditionally founded on the philosophy of, is moot and not worth defending.
     
  20. VCR-2000

    VCR-2000 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, I guess.
     
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