What is the "official" Bible of the Catholic Church? The KJV or Douay-Rheims?

[jamiec]

What is the "official" Bible of the Catholic Church? The KJV or Douay-Rheims?

I'm not looking to debate you. I'm asking Catholics.

What is better? The KJV or Douay Rheims? Or other?

It's my understanding that the Douay Rheims was published years before the KJV, and that half of the verses in the KJV are basically a 'cheap rip-off' from the Douay Rheims which itself is based on the Latin Vulgate.

Also, does the Catholic Church regard the Latin Vulgate as more authoritative than the Greek Septuagint?

Neither.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I'm slowly wading through the Douay-Rheims version, mainly to satisfy my curiosity. I'm up to IV Kings which in the KJV wouild probably be part of II Kings.

Apart from some differences in language and spelling of some names, with the KJV having a more poetic turn of phrase, and of course the DR version having Deutero-Canonical or Apocraphyl books (depending on which side of the fence you're sitting on), they both say the same thing.

I've never read the KJV incidentally, and I'm not interested, but I do remember bits of it from my Sunday School days years ago.

My old Presbyterian pastor once said to a group of us that the way the KJV was written was how educated Englishmen spoke at that time. It was the age of Shakespeare, and at least one literary pundit thought Shakespeare might have had a minor role in the KJV translation.

https://www1.cbn.com/spiritual-life/was-shakespeare-one-translators-king-james-bible

I don't think many Protestant churches would use it these days, as the language is "outdated".

I don't know which version our local Catholic church uses now as its "official Bible". I'm a reader in church myself, but we read from a printed sheet of paper and not directly from the Bible itself, so there's no indication which edition we use.

When I went through RCIA and became Catholic, I was presented with an NSRV edition if I remember rightly. I suspect it is still the NSRV which our parish uses.

Becoming Catholic

www.catholicenquiry.com

In May 1990, the Australian Catholic Bishops Conference approved a number of scriptural translations for use in the liturgy in Australia, in addition to the Jerusalem Bible in the 1981 Lectionary. These include the following:

• the New Jerusalem Bible
• the New Revised Standard Version
• the New American Bible
• the Good News Bible.

One comment I remember my old Protestant pastor making was that the Good News Bible was designed for people for whom English was a second language, so the translating committee tried to keep it simple. Despite this he said he probably had more translation concerns about the NIV version than the Good News, but I don't think it was anything major.

I know he was a fan of J.B. Phillips "New Testament" translation but I'm not qualified to give an opinion as I don't have the hermeneutical expertise and I've never read it.

 

[tz620q]

I'm slowly wading through the Douay-Rheims version, mainly to satisfy my curiosity. I'm up to IV Kings which in the KJV wouild probably be part of II Kings.

Apart from some differences in language and spelling of some names, with the KJV having a more poetic turn of phrase, and of course the DR version having Deutero-Canonical or Apocraphyl books (depending on which side of the fence you're sitting on), they both say the same thing.

I've never read the KJV incidentally, and I'm not interested, but I do remember bits of it from my Sunday School days years ago.

My old Presbyterian pastor once said to a group of us that the way the KJV was written was how educated Englishmen spoke at that time. It was the age of Shakespeare, and at least one literary pundit thought Shakespeare might have had a minor role in the KJV translation.

https://www1.cbn.com/spiritual-life/was-shakespeare-one-translators-king-james-bible

I don't think many Protestant churches would use it these days, as the language is "outdated".

I don't know which version our local Catholic church uses now as its "official Bible". I'm a reader in church myself, but we read from a printed sheet of paper and not directly from the Bible itself, so there's no indication which edition we use.

When I went through RCIA and became Catholic, I was presented with an NSRV edition if I remember rightly. I suspect it is still the NSRV which our parish uses.

Becoming Catholic

www.catholicenquiry.com

One comment I remember my old Protestant pastor making was that the Good News Bible was designed for people for whom English was a second language, so the translating committee tried to keep it simple. Despite this he said he probably had more translation concerns about the NIV version than the Good News, but I don't think it was anything major.

I know he was a fan of J.B. Phillips "New Testament" translation but I'm not qualified to give an opinion as I don't have the hermeneutical expertise and I've never read it.

As a Presbyterian convert, what was your opinion on becoming Catholic and reading the Deutero? Or had you read it before?

 

[Bob Crowley]

I hadn't read those seven books before I became Catholic.

I've since read them all, but probably only once each.

it's a bit difficult to describe, but I sort of felt they were "less spiritual" than the rest of the Bible. Whether that was because I was more familiar with the Protestant Bible, or some other factor I don't know.

My old Presbyterian pastor described Tobit as a "Jewish yarn", and I'd have to agree. I sometimes wonder if the lady in that story was the one the cynical Saducees used to challenge Christ about a woman who had seven husbands who all died leaving her childless.

They probably regarded it as a tall tale.

Tobit (Tobias in the Douay Rheims) 2:7-8:

"Now it happened on the same day, that Sara daughter of Raguel, in Rages a city of the Medes, received a reproach from one of her father's servant maids.

Because she had been given to seven husbands, and a devil named Asmodeus had killed them, at the first going unto her."

But we'd be somewhat hasty to dismiss all the books as "uninspired". Christ and the writers of the New Testament used quite a number of quotes from those books, either directly or indirectly.

DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic

Scripture Matt. 2:16 – Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 – slaying the holy innocents. Matt. 6:19-20 – Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 – lay up your treasure. Matt.. 7:12 – Jesus’ golden rule “do unto...

www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[tz620q]

I hadn't read those seven books before I became Catholic.

I've since read them all, but probably only once each.

it's a bit difficult to describe, but I sort of felt they were "less spiritual" than the rest of the Bible. Whether that was because I was more familiar with the Protestant Bible, or some other factor I don't know.

My old Presbyterian pastor described Tobit as a "Jewish yarn", and I'd have to agree. I sometimes wonder if the lady in that story was the one the cynical Saducees used to challenge Christ about a woman who had seven husbands who all died leaving her childless.

They probably regarded it as a tall tale.

Tobit (Tobias in the Douay Rheims) 2:7-8:



But we'd be somewhat hasty to dismiss all the books as "uninspired". Christ and the writers of the New Testament used quite a number of quotes from those books, either directly or indirectly.

DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic

Scripture Matt. 2:16 – Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 – slaying the holy innocents. Matt. 6:19-20 – Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 – lay up your treasure. Matt.. 7:12 – Jesus’ golden rule “do unto...

www.scripturecatholic.com

I found the Book of Wisdom to have some of the clearest prophesies about the coming of Christ. It was also an attempt by a Jewish scholar to place the Jewish theological thought at that time in the predominant Greek philosophy. So we see Wisdom called She as though it has human attributes.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

The 1611KJV Bible should be the only English Bible around, it used the original Hebrew for the OT and the original Greek for the NT. It comes with a copywrite so all other English Bibles have to altar the text quite a bit before they can get their own copywrite.
The Re:22 warning about changing any of it seems to be a part they missed, or they think it doesn't apply to them, or they just don't care. Their purpose is to make money off the word of God, rather than enlightening the people who want to gain wisdom about God.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

I found the Book of Wisdom to have some of the clearest prophesies about the coming of Christ. It was also an attempt by a Jewish scholar to place the Jewish theological thought at that time in the predominant Greek philosophy. So we see Wisdom called She as though it has human attributes.

Care to post some of the better ones?

 

[PloverWing]

The 1611KJV Bible should be the only English Bible around, it used the original Hebrew for the OT and the original Greek for the NT. It comes with a copywrite so all other English Bibles have to altar the text quite a bit before they can get their own copywrite.
The Re:22 warning about changing any of it seems to be a part they missed, or they think it doesn't apply to them, or they just don't care. Their purpose is to make money off the word of God, rather than enlightening the people who want to gain wisdom about God.

The majority of modern translators also work from the original Hebrew and Greek. They aren't just translating the KJV's Tudor English into modern English.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

The majority of modern translators also work from the original Hebrew and Greek. They aren't just translating the KJV's Tudor English into modern English.

The spelling updates are in my version of the 1611KJV. You cannot have an English Bible that is more accurate than the one that uses the original Hebrew for the OT and the original Greek for the NT due to the way a copywrite works.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

noun
the exclusive right to make copies, license, and otherwise exploit a literary, musical, or artistic work, whether printed, audio, video, etc.: works granted such right by law on or after January 1, 1978, are protected for the lifetime of the author or creator and for a period of 70 years after his or her death.
adjective
of or relating to copyrights.
Also cop·y·right·ed. protected by copyright.
verb (used with object)
to secure a copyright on.

 

[rturner76]

I have a New American Bible Revised Edition St John's Edition. It's authorized by the board of trustees of the confraternity of Christian doctrine and approved by the administrative committee of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

It seems to have a bit more of an older style to it but it reads in a way that I trust.

But usually, when researching, I like to look at multiple translations with the online tools available. The NABRE is my paper Bible.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

I have a New American Bible Revised Edition St John's Edition. It's authorized by the board of trustees of the confraternity of Christian doctrine and approved by the administrative committee of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

It seems to have a bit more of an older style to it but it reads in a way that I trust.

But usually, when researching, I like to look at multiple translations with the online tools available. The NABRE is my paper Bible.

Does it follow the format of 'all flesh' or is it changed to something like 'all people'?
Lu:3:6:
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Being changed alters this verse to they are not saved as well.
1Co:15:39:
All flesh is not the same flesh:
but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes,
and another of birds.

 

[Petros2015]

I found the Book of Wisdom to have some of the clearest prophesies about the coming of Christ

Care to post some of the better ones?

Ch 2 from verse 12 down really jumped out at me the first time I read it. If the dating on the book is correct, it is about 50 years pre-Christ.

Wisdom - Chapter 2 - Bible - Catholic Online

1 And this is the false argument they use, 'Our life is short and dreary, there is no remedy when our end comes, no one is known to have come back from Hades. 2 We came into being by chance and afterwards shall be as though we had never been. The breath in our nostrils is a puff of smoke, reason...

www.catholic.org

12 Let us lay traps for the upright man, since he annoys us and opposes our way of life, reproaches us for our sins against the Law, and accuses us of sins against our upbringing.
13 He claims to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.
14 We see him as a reproof to our way of thinking, the very sight of him weighs our spirits down;
15 for his kind of life is not like other people's, and his ways are quite different.
16 In his opinion we are counterfeit; he avoids our ways as he would filth; he proclaims the final end of the upright as blessed and boasts of having God for his father.
17 Let us see if what he says is true, and test him to see what sort of end he will have.
18 For if the upright man is God's son, God will help him and rescue him from the clutches of his enemies.
19 Let us test him with cruelty and with torture, and thus explore this gentleness of his and put his patience to the test.
20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death since God will rescue him -- or so he claims.'
21 This is the way they reason, but they are misled, since their malice makes them blind.
22 They do not know the hidden things of God, they do not hope for the reward of holiness, they do not believe in a reward for blameless souls.
23 For God created human beings to be immortal, he made them as an image of his own nature;
24 Death came into the world only through the Devil's envy, as those who belong to him find to their cost.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

The spelling updates are in my version of the 1611KJV. You cannot have an English Bible that is more accurate than the one that uses the original Hebrew for the OT and the original Greek for the NT due to the way a copywrite works.

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

noun
the exclusive right to make copies, license, and otherwise exploit a literary, musical, or artistic work, whether printed, audio, video, etc.: works granted such right by law on or after January 1, 1978, are protected for the lifetime of the author or creator and for a period of 70 years after his or her death.
adjective
of or relating to copyrights.
Also cop·y·right·ed. protected by copyright.
verb (used with object)
to secure a copyright on.

 

[rturner76]

Does it follow the format of 'all flesh' or is it changed to something like 'all people'?
Lu:3:6:
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Being changed alters this verse to they are not saved as well.
1Co:15:39:
All flesh is not the same flesh:
but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes,
and another of birds.

It says "all flesh."

 

[Oliver Peers]

What is the "official" Bible of the Catholic Church? The KJV or Douay-Rheims?

I'm not looking to debate you. I'm asking Catholics.

What is better? The KJV or Douay Rheims? Or other?

It's my understanding that the Douay Rheims was published years before the KJV, and that half of the verses in the KJV are basically a 'cheap rip-off' from the Douay Rheims which itself is based on the Latin Vulgate.

Also, does the Catholic Church regard the Latin Vulgate as more authoritative than the Greek Septuagint?

Hi. The New Vulgate is the official Latin text - which replaces the old/original Vulgate. The Greek Septuagint is a worthy source, and includes books which are not found in the Hebrew Bible. In each region/language, there will be a version of the Bible which is used in church at Mass. So, for example, in England, this is the New Jerusalem Bible. This is not say that other translations, such as the RSV, are not wholeheartedly used and endorsed by Catholics. The KJV is of course a wonderful piece of literature. (Check out my reading on Audible!!!). It is not generally used by Catholics as devotionl material. The Douay Rheims is often enjoyed by Catholics who like a little of the old-fashioned. The current official translations, including the New Vulgate, draw upon a range of source texts - particularly in relation to the New Testament bearing in mind that we have no single unified original text in what, for the New Testament, would be varieties of Greek. That which comes down to us of, say, The Gospels is quite fragmentary. I think I was told that the first complete New Testament we have is in translation into Latin and is the Vulgate. (As distinct from the New Vulgate.) Complicated!! Hope that helps. OLiver

 

[Petros2015]

I like comparing Douay and NIV, KJV - some will be better in areas than others probably.
Have both and compare to see a full richness of possibilities, is my recommendation.

It really freaked me out when I saw the Douay translation for "daily" in "give us this day our daily bread"
Rendered "supersubstantial" in Matthew and "daily" in Luke because, I believe, Jerome was scratching his head over it.

Epiousion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You will also see interesting things in Genesis

Douay

[15] I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

KJV

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

NIV (I was used to this one exclusively)

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

How the heck could that be? Well, the Hebrew grammar is ambiguous (he/she/many descendants) all valid. So the first time I saw images of Mary trampling a snake, I thought "waitaminute, isn't that supposed to be Christ???" But if you are coming from Jerome's Vulgate, it makes perfect sense.

Or, if you like you can have a Charlie Brown Christmas in the KJV:

King James Bible
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Or, something subtly different, note the qualifier...

Douay-Rheims Bible
Glory to God in the highest; and on earth peace to men of good will.

 

[tz620q]

I like comparing Douay and NIV, KJV - some will be better in areas than others probably.
Have both and compare to see a full richness of possibilities, is my recommendation.

[15] I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

KJV

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

NIV (I was used to this one exclusively)

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

How the heck could that be? Well, the Hebrew grammar is ambiguous (he/she/many descendants) all valid. So the first time I saw images of Mary trampling a snake, I thought "waitaminute, isn't that supposed to be Christ???" But if you are coming from Jerome's Vulgate, it makes perfect sense.

Jerome inferred the wrong antecedent for the verb shall crush. Which is interesting because he did the OT from the Greek Septuagint into Latin before travelling to Palestine. Perhaps he rethought his translation during his time there. Anyway the Vulgate got is wrong and it stayed in the Douay. It inspired a lot of great art of the virginal Mary with her foot on a dragon's head. Cool stuff.

 

[tz620q]

I like comparing Douay and NIV, KJV - some will be better in areas than others probably.
Have both and compare to see a full richness of possibilities, is my recommendation.

It really freaked me out when I saw the Douay translation for "daily" in "give us this day our daily bread"
Rendered "supersubstantial" in Matthew and "daily" in Luke because, I believe, Jerome was scratching his head over it.

I hate the newer translations that take the extremely rare "epiousios" and translates it to daily as though it was actually using the Greek root for the English word "quotidian". At least Jerome tried to show this dual meaning of being supersubstantial (pointing to the real presence in the Eucharist) and also daily.