What is the LDS End Time view ?

[CaliforniaKid]

Breetai,

LDS theology speaks of three (or four) resurrections. When Jesus was crucified he supposedly went to preach to the dead in prison. But that's an oversimplification. Actually what LDS scripture tells us is that he went and declared his victory to the spirits of the prophets in paradise. Jesus could not preach to all the unrighteous spirits himself in only three days, so he sent the prophets' spirits to do that. He sort of delegated the whole preaching to the dead thing. Then he returned to earth to be raised from the dead (see the quote from D&C 138 in the next reply).

The spirits of the prophets were doing their missionary work until the time of Christ's ascension, at which point they (and the spirits of all the just who died before Christ's resurrection) were raised from the dead in what is called the "first resurrection." The spirits of the unjust who passed away before Christ were not at this time raised, but LDS scripture declares that they too will be raised sometime before Christ's coming. I point you to Alma 40:16-21:

16 And behold, again it hath been spoken, that there is a first resurrection, a resurrection of all those who have been, or who are, or who shall be, down to the resurrection of Christ from the dead.

17 Now, we do not suppose that this first resurrection, which is spoken of in this manner, can be the resurrection of the souls and their consignation to happiness or misery. Ye cannot suppose that this is what it meaneth.

18 Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but it meaneth the reuniting of the soul with the body, of those from the days of Adam down to the resurrection of Christ.

19 Now, whether the souls and the bodies of those of whom has been spoken shall all be reunited at once, the wicked as well as the righteous, I do not say; let it suffice, that I say that they all come forth; or in other words, their resurrection cometh to pass before the resurrection of those who die after the resurrection of Christ.

20 Now, my son, I do not say that their resurrection cometh at the resurrection of Christ; but behold, I give it as my opinion, that the souls and the bodies are reunited, of the righteous, at the resurrection of Christ, and his ascension into heaven.

21 But whether it be at his resurrection or after, I do not say; but this much I say, that there is a space between death and the resurrection of the body, and a state of the soul in happiness or in misery until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth, and be reunited, both soul and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

So the First Resurrection is actually two separate resurrections: the resurrection of the just who preceded Christ and the resurrection of the unjust who preceded Christ. These resurrections have probably already taken place. Where are all these folks now? I find no answer in LDS scripture.

The next resurrection is the resurrection of the just at the Second Coming. At this time the righteous dead rise to meet their Savior in the air and proceed to spend the millennium with him. (Read it in the Gospel Principles manual)

The second resurrection is after the millennium. That's the general resurrection, when all the dead will be raised and judged. (Read about this in Gospel Principles too)

Hopefully these sources will be more amenable to our Mormon friends than the Bruce McConkie quote I used in the other thread.

-CK

 

[CaliforniaKid]

Here's the D&C quote I promised:

Doctrine and Covenants 138
16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.

17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;

19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.

20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;

21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.

22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;

...

25 I marveled, for I understood that the Savior spent about three years in his ministry among the Jews and those of the house of Israel, endeavoring to teach them the everlasting gospel and call them unto repentance;

26 And yet, notwithstanding his mighty works, and miracles, and proclamation of the truth, in great power and authority, there were but few who hearkened to his voice, and rejoiced in his presence, and received salvation at his hands.

27 But his ministry among those who were dead was limited to the brief time intervening between the crucifixion and his resurrection;

28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to fall the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh;

37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words.

 

[Breetai]

From a random anti-Mormon site. This site provided no sources, so I can't tell you where these ideas came from. I'm assuming from within Mormonism somewhere. Whether they are(or were) widely believed I do not know.

1. Zion in America - They believe the Lost 10 tribes will be restored and Zion will be

built upon the American Continent.

2. That Christ will reign 1000 years.

1) Time of peace. Satan bound. Yet, sin and death not completely abolished.

2) Great work - temple work - baptism for the dead.

3) Those living in the millennium will live for 100 years and then be changed to

immortality, and be "caught up."

3. Two resurrections -

1) First at beginning of millennium. All the wicked will be "burned as stubble." Not

annihilation, but sudden death.

2) During the millennium the spirits of the wicked will remain bound, but have the

opportunity to repent and cleanse themselves through the things they shall suffer.

3) Second - at the end of millennium all wicked will be raised. Satan loosed. Will

gather his host for last attempt to deceive the nations. Great battle will be fought -

Satan and his army will be defeated.

4) The Bible doesn't promise a second chance. Heb 9:27; II Peter 3:9ff

Thanks CaliforniaKid.

I'm really looking for more information of LDS millennialism right now.

 

[Breetai]

Since I haven't been able to find anything in the internet about Joseph Smith ruling during the millennium from New Jerusalem, I'm going to assume that it's not a widely held belief. I still am convinced that I have read it somewhere though. If anyone can find a Joseph Smith quote about this, that would be great.

 

[CaliforniaKid]

Breetai,

You quoted a source that said that Zion will be on the American continent, but Latter-day Saints believe that during the millennium there WILL BE NO American continent. We'll have a supercontinent. It will be Pangaea all over again. That's in D&C 133:23-24 (and in the Gospel Principles manual). The same passage says that "the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place." I don't know what that means. Maybe it means that the New Jerusalem and Zion will be in the land of Israel, not in Missouri. Or maybe it means that when the continents shift, Independence Missouri will end up occupying the same space that Israel occupies today? I'm just guessing here. Maybe Joseph Smith was just rambling when he wrote that and he didn't really intend for it to mean anything.

On the other hand, Joseph Fielding Smith DID teach in doctrines of Salvation that "At this time there will be two capitals in the world, one in Jerusalem, the other in America (see Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:66–72)." (That's from Gospel Principles too) Perhaps that's where you'll find the bit about Joseph Smith ruling. I hope this helps,

-CK

 

[CaliforniaKid]

From the Ensign on Joseph Smith's prophecy about the Second Coming:

The Saints were reminded that not even the angels serving at the throne of God would know the exact day—but many millennialists speculated and calculated from the writings of Daniel and John the Beloved. Joseph Smith observed in 1843 that earlier he had sought earnestly through prayer to know the time of the Second Coming. A voice replied, “Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.” This answer left him wondering, the Prophet said, “whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face. I believe,” he told the Saints at Ramus, Illinois, “the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.” (D&C 130:15-17.)

Eight years earlier the Prophet had mentioned this occurrence to a gathering in Kirtland. At this meeting of 14 February 1835, the same at which the Twelve were chosen, he charged the missionaries to “go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh—even fifty-six years should wind up the scene” (History of the Church, 2:182). Ignoring the conditional “if” of the inspired utterance (the Prophet obviously did not reach the specified age), some Saints in Utah anticipated the Millennium in 1891, and some even designated February 14, it being the anniversary of the Kirtland meeting. Others chose 23 December 1890, the eighty-fifth anniversary of the Prophet’s birth, as the eventful day.

Glen M. Leonard, “Early Saints and the Millennium,” Ensign, Aug. 1979, 43

 

[fatboys]

Were you looking for a specific date? If so, current LDS teachings have no "date" for the second coming. Early LDS leaders believed that Christ would return in 1891. Course, much like JW's, they realized that fixing dates is a dangerous game...

FB: Jason, there was no date attached to Christ's second coming. Joseph Smith asked the Lord when his second coming would be, since they were going through all the persecutions, false arrests, etc. The Lord told Joseph Smith that if he lived until he was eighty, he would see his coming. The Lord knew that Joseph Smith would not live that long. To say that this was a fixed date is silly.

 

[CaliforniaKid]

so why did the Lord say it?

 

[GOD'S ARMY]

so why did the Lord say it?

Probably to shut him up.

 

[Jason of Wyoming]

FB: Jason, there was no date attached to Christ's second coming. Joseph Smith asked the Lord when his second coming would be, since they were going through all the persecutions, false arrests, etc. The Lord told Joseph Smith that if he lived until he was eighty, he would see his coming. The Lord knew that Joseph Smith would not live that long. To say that this was a fixed date is silly.

Silly enough for the 4th LDS prophet to believe it was a fixed date.

 

[Breetai]

This was PMed to me by another member. It shows, in the last paragraph, that I'm not the only one with the idea that Joseph Smith thought that he would be ruling part of the world in the millennium.

Much has been said about the power of the Latter-day Saints. Is it the people called Latter-day Saints that have this power, or is it the Priesthood? It is the Priesthood; and if they live according to that Priesthood, they can commence their work here and gain many victories and be prepared to receive glory, immortality, and eternal life, that when they go into the spirit-world, their work will far surpass that of any other man or being that has not been blessed with the keys of the Priesthood here.


Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true.

I will now tell you something that ought to comfort every man and woman on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom to enjoy, perhaps, the presence of angels or the spirits of good men, if they cannot endure the presence of the Father and the Son; and he will never cease his operations, under the directions of the Son of God, until the last ones of the children of men are saved that can be, from Adam till now.

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources...eystoheaven.htm

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources...ws/jofdvol7p282_291smithholdskeystoheaven.htm

 

[christopher123]

A couple of points here if I may-

The best LDS reading I ever found on this subject was in James Talmage's "Jesus the Christ"...this was probably my favorite book when I was mormon. I would recommend everyone read it.


Also, the following quote by Joseph Smith -

"There are those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till Christ comes."

McConkie has some good gymnastics about how this can still hold true.


Chris <><

 

[ST:DS9]

A couple of points here if I may-

The best LDS reading I ever found on this subject was in James Talmage's "Jesus the Christ"...this was probably my favorite book when I was mormon. I would recommend everyone read it.Chris <><

Did you need a dictionary to read that? I did.

 

[Phoenix]

My apologies my opening this thread and bailing on it. I'm glad to see though it seems to be a decent discussion. It looks like FB is the only LDS member ( i think ) that responded. Thanks FB, for being willing to take up the discussion with me, even though i wont be able to. The proverbial blank has hit the fan and i've really only have the time to drop in and out briefly.

 

[Breetai]

Our Star Trek fan is a LDS that also responded. That's two.