What "is" the Law...?

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
The law of God (reduced from the ten commandments in the old testament to two in the new)
No, you'll never find it reduced to two in the New Testament. If someone loves YHWH, they obey Him, if someone loves Yeshua, they obey Him,
they don't forget His TORAH, it is written in their hearts if they are alive in the new creation or as new creations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neogaia777
Upvote 0

Bryce Harris

Active Member
Jun 19, 2016
31
14
25
Texas
✟15,461.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Isn't that the law and gospel...?

Glorious!

God Bless!
Breaking the law which everyone has done brings forth the punishment of death. The Gospel is the fact that Jesus came and lived it perfectly that we may live it perfectly in him by faith, therefore, excluding us from the penalty of death because when he died we died with him on the cross also(because he died in our place) and now as new creations we now live perfectly in the law through him by faith now that we are baptized in him.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Neogaia777
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,422.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
So in the case of this fellow I know who keeps the OT laws (who is not a Jew) my response to him would be, "We are not under the Law, but under Grace." (NC) ?

I agree that we are not under the law, but under grace, but I think it is very important to correctly understand which law he was saying that we are not under. In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's Law and that he served it with his mind, but contrast it with the law of sin that held him captive that he served with his flesh. This is a summary of what he said previously, so it the law of sin that come about to increase trespasses (5:20), to stir up sinful passions to bear fruit unto death (7:5), that held him captive (7:6), that gave sin its power (7:8), that seized the opportunity through the commandment to deceive him and slay him (7:12), and that caused him not to do the good that he wanted to do (7:13-20), while God's Law is not sin, but reveals what sin is (7:7), is holy, righteous, and good (7:12), is the good that Paul did not blame for bringing death to him (7:13), and is the good that he wanted to do (7:13-20).

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

This verse specifies that the law that we are not under is one where sin had dominion over us, which perfectly fits Paul's description of the law of sin, but does not at all fit his description of God's holy, righteous, and good Law. If sin no longer has dominion over us because we are not under God's Law, then God's Law is sin, but Paul said that God's Law is not sin, but reveals what sin is. Sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so all of the surrounding context also supports obeying God's Law, by say we should not let sin reign in our body and make us obey its passions (6:12), that we should not present bodies as instruments of sin, but as instruments of righteousness (6:13), that we are not free to sin (6:15), that we are to present ourselves as obedient slaves of God (6:16), that we are no longer slaves of sin, but have been set free from sin to become slaves of righteousness (6:17-18), and that we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves of impurity and Lawlessness leading to more Lawlessness, but to present ourselves as slaves of righteousness leading to sanctification. There is absolutely nothing in these verses that indicates that we have been set free from following God's instructions for how to do what is righteous and avoid sin. In Psalms 119:29, David asked God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law, so if we are under grace, then we are under God's Law. This is also confirmed in Titus 2:11-14, which describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do things that all all in accordance with what the Law was given to instruct.

Sorry, I know this is slightly off course but I never had a biblical response to him when he tells me about how he keeps the Sabbath and can't eat pepperoni on his pizza.

Christ set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Law, and as his followers, we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6), and to be imitators of him (1 Corinthians 11:1), so we should follow his example of keeping the Sabbath and refraining from eating unclean animals by grace through faith. In 1 Peter 1:13-16, it quoted Leviticus to say we are to have a holy conduct not in order to act like Jews, but because God is holy, so following God's instructions in Leviticus for how to have a holy conduct, such as Leviticus 11:44-45 in refraining from eating unclean animals, is about acting in accordance with the holiness of our God. It should also be relatively straightforward that the way to have a holy conduct involves getting joy and the privilege of keeping God's holy days.

If he is not a Jew, why does he keep OT laws? It does cause him hardships because he has to sacrifice many things in this modern city we live in. He has to call off work for two weeks for the Feast and keeps can't work on Saturday for instance. He won't even cut the lawn on a Saturday.

Thanks folks!

The OT says many times that the Law is about walking in God ways (Deuteronomy 10:12-13), so obedience is not about acting like Jew, but about reflecting God's eternal attributes to the world: holiness, righteousness, goodness (Romans 7:12), justice, mercy, faithfulness (Matthew 23:23), love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control (Exodus 34:6-7, Galatians 5:22-23). While the Law was given to the Jews, it was never meant only for the Jews, but rather the Jews were given the role of being a light to the nations, drawing them to God, teaching about Him, how to serve Him, and walk in His ways in accordance with His Law (Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 49:6, Deuteronomy 4:5-8). God said what He commanded was for our own good, so it's not about causing hardships, but about delighting in our God. God said that he wants us to call His Sabbath a delight (Isaiah 58:13-14), and David said repeatedly through the Psalms that he delighted in obeying God's Law, that he meditated on it day and night, that he loved it, that those who obey will be blessed, that he wanted God to show his grace to him by teaching him to obey it, that he walked about in liberty because he sought to obey, etc., and Paul also said he delighted in obeying it (Romans 7:22), so he was the same page as David. I read the extremely positive praise that David had for God's Law, realized that the extremely negative view that I had been taught was incompatible, and that I needed to conform my understanding to Scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,422.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
* The old covenant was made with the children of Israel, and the new covenant will be made with them too. The nations (Gentiles) were never under the old covenant, and they were also never under the law of Sinai, which was a requirement of the old covenant, made with Israel; they knew only the law of conscience which is common to all men. The law of sin and death also being common to all born of Adam of course.

The Mosaic Law was given to reveal what sin is, so if Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Law, then they have never needed to worry about sin, they have never needed grace, and they have never needed Christ to give himself to redeem them from all Lawlessness. In Titus 2:14, it it does not say that Christ gave himself to redeem us from the Law, but to redeem us from all Lawlessness, yet the idea that he gave himself to free us from the law is nevertheless widely taught, which would mean that they believe Jesus gave himself to free them from being under a Law that they were never under in the first place.
 
  • Like
Reactions: readywriter
Upvote 0

disciple1

Newbie
Aug 1, 2012
2,168
546
✟62,178.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What "is" the Law...? Or the Old Covenant...?

This discussion came up in this thread: What is and is not a sin... The correct view of sin...?

What "is" the "Law"...?

Comments...?

God Bless!
Proverbs chapter 10 verse 12
Love covers all wrongs.

1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Love covers a great many sins.

Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.

Sin is breaking any law that God made, but the only one that was meant to be obeyed was to love
What "is" the Law...? Or the Old Covenant...?

This discussion came up in this thread: What is and is not a sin... The correct view of sin...?

What "is" the "Law"...?

Comments...?

God Bless!
Jesus said his yoke was easy and his burden light.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 14
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Love is the only thing in the law that's not a burden.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,422.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
So you can supply evidence that you are able to keep all of Gods commands?

I think the fact that God said that what He commanded is not too difficult for to obey is strong evidence that we are able to keep all of his commands, and I believe Him. There isn't a single law that I can point to and say that it is too difficult for me to obey. If it were impossible for me to obey it, then I could not be held responsible for not obeying it. In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, it says that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! This means that we have real a choice, but if it were impossible to obey, then we wouldn't really have a choice, and God gave the Law to His children to put us all under a curse, but I think our Father knows how to give better gifts to His children than that, especially when He said it was commanded for our own good (Deuteronomy 10:12-13).

The Law itself comes with instructions for what to do when we sin, which would have been completely unnecessary if we needed to have perfect obedience for some reason. While we should be careful to obey all that God has commanded because we love Him and because we have faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live, it is fundamental misunderstanding of God's Law that obedience has ever been about having a perfect performance rather about growing in a relationship with Him based in faith and love. Everything in the Bible is there to teach us about God and how to have a relationship with Him, and since the beginning with God walking with Adam in the Garden that is what He has always primarily wanted from us, with obedience just being the way to grow in that relationship. God has always disdained when His people outwardly obeyed His Law while their hearts were far from Him because that was missing the entire point of obeying the Law. Every single prophet up to and including Jesus came with the message to repent from our sins, so it is our continued repentance that makes the distinction between keeping the Law and not, between the blessing and the curse, and this is something anyone can do.

Just what are you trying to say?

Are you saying we should obey God's law, which as Jesus has fulfilled the ceremonial law only leave the 10 C,or are you saying we shuld ignore gods law. Because as god is a God of order is not something the spirit of God will ever lead you to do.

To fulfill the Law is defined as causing God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should. After Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 that he came to fulfill the Law, not to abolish it, he then proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it. According to Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire Law, so anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire Law, meaning that it does not refer to something unique that Jesus did. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Law as being instructions for how to love God and our neighbor, so love fulfills the entire law because that is showing a full understanding of what it is about. Jesus taught more than just the Ten Commandments in Matthew 5 alone, so he did not say anything about fulfilling only ceremonial laws or leaving just the Ten Commandments, but he did say that not the least part would disappear from the Law until heaven and earth have passed away and all is accomplished, neither of which has happened yet. He then warned that those who relax the least of the laws or teach others to do the same would be least in the Kingdom, while those who obeyed and taught others to do the same would be great in the Kingdom (Matthew 5:17-19). As followers of Jesus, we should straightforwardly follow the example of doing what is holy, righteous, and good in obedience to the Law that he set for his followers to follow (1 Peter 2:21-22).

It's not clear to me why you thought I might be saying that we should ignore God's Law, but I apologize if I wasn not clear.
 
Upvote 0

Tolworth John

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 10, 2017
8,278
4,678
68
Tolworth
✟369,679.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There isn't a single law that I can point to and say that it is too difficult for me to obey

I am always amazed when people claim that they can love the Lord their God with all their mind, body and soul and that they can love their neighbour as theyove themselves.

Tell me how do you do this impossible task?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: readywriter
Upvote 0

Emmy

Senior Veteran
Feb 15, 2004
10,199
939
✟50,995.00
Faith
Salvation Army
Dear Neogaia. The Law is telling us what to do and what not to do. We have to do as we are told. BUT: God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. The Bible tells us: give up all selfish and unloving words and deeds, love God with all our beings and treat each other as we would love to be treated. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." God is Love and God wants loving men and women. Jesus died for us, and now we can live for Jesus and Jesus is the WAY. Love is very catching, and God wants our love. Love will overcome all wrong and evil desires.
In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: Ask and you shall receive, we ask God for Love and Compassion, then we thank God and truly love all we know and all we meet. To love is to treat others as we would love to be treated. Love will soon take over, and we shall be the sons and daughters which God wants us to be. Why not try it? Love is VERY catching and God wants our LOVE, all other good things are wrapped up in love. God will Bless us greatly. I say this with love, Neogaia777. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,422.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
  • Agree
Reactions: Neogaia777
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

pat34lee

Messianic
Sep 13, 2011
11,293
2,637
59
Florida, USA
✟89,330.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
From article (link below):
"The Hebrew word, torah (תורה), is derived from a root that was used in the realm of archery, yareh (ירה). Yareh means to shoot an arrow in order to hit a mark. The mark or target, of course, was the object at which the archer was aiming. Consequently, torah, one of the nouns derived from this root, is, therefore, the arrow aimed at the mark, The target is the truth about God and how one relates to Him. The torah is, therefore, in the strict sense instruction designed to teach us the truth about God. Torah means direction, teaching, instruction or doctrine.

Since the term torah means instruction or teaching, in a very real sense the word can be applied to the entire Bible. Whereas most would use torah in reference to the first five books of the Scriptures, we at TRI think that it is a term that can rightfully be extended to include the rest of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation."

Torah - Definition
 
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,291
5,252
45
Oregon
✟960,797.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
From article (link below):
"The Hebrew word, torah (תורה), is derived from a root that was used in the realm of archery, yareh (ירה). Yareh means to shoot an arrow in order to hit a mark. The mark or target, of course, was the object at which the archer was aiming. Consequently, torah, one of the nouns derived from this root, is, therefore, the arrow aimed at the mark, The target is the truth about God and how one relates to Him. The torah is, therefore, in the strict sense instruction designed to teach us the truth about God. Torah means direction, teaching, instruction or doctrine.

Since the term torah means instruction or teaching, in a very real sense the word can be applied to the entire Bible. Whereas most would use torah in reference to the first five books of the Scriptures, we at TRI think that it is a term that can rightfully be extended to include the rest of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation."

Torah - Definition
I think Torah and gospel could be the same... Maybe...?
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,422.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
I am always amazed when people claim that they can love the Lord their God with all their mind, body and soul and that they can love their neighbour as theyove themselves.

Tell me how do you do this impossible task?

Are you telling me that you think that God lied when He said that what He commanded was not too difficult?

I can assure you that it is not impossible to do something as simple as making a meal for your neighbor.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Neogaia777
Upvote 0

Neogaia777

Old Soul
Site Supporter
Oct 10, 2011
23,291
5,252
45
Oregon
✟960,797.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Are you telling me that you think that God lied when He said that what He commanded was not too difficult?

I can assure you that it is not impossible to do something as simple as making a meal for your neighbor.
Agree, sometimes the "little things" can be, or can lead to, the "important" things...

God Bless!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Shempster

ImJustMe
Site Supporter
Dec 28, 2014
1,560
786
✟258,881.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Looking at the 10 commandments as part of the law I noticed something: they start with the phrase "thou shalt not". I have always thought it meant "do not do this", but now I don't think that's exactly what is meant.

Remember, part of the purpose of the law is to show that we cannot actually do it so we need the Holy Spirit to even be able. So look at the words Thou shalt not, or you will not. Hmmm.
Doesn't it change the meaning if you read it that way? You will not? That sounds like a promise. At some point, you WILL NOT do these things. I think it is pointing to the idea that when one obtains the mind of Christ, they naturally just will not do those things. That's an eye-opener!
The spiritual man simply will not do these things while the flesh-man cannot resist them.
 
Upvote 0