• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured What "is" the Law...?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Neogaia777, Oct 13, 2017.

  1. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

    +3,391
    Non-Denom
    Celibate
    Thanks man...

    God Bless!
     
  2. Haipule

    Haipule Well-Known Member

    681
    +424
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Thank you, it is always a pleasure to chat with you sir.
     
  3. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

    +3,391
    Non-Denom
    Celibate
    You as well,

    God Bless!
     
  4. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

    +221
    Non-Denom
    Private
    in short, the biblical "law" is the thing people call "religion" nowadays, and religion might be consistent with the Holy commandments/laws of the true God, but it might also be founded on imperfection/unrighteousness

    in the beginning, before the Fall, humans (to be more precise, adam and eve) didn't need and (didn't) have such a religion, but satan began and continued to seduce them into practicing occultism/esoterism, and since then religion was nascent and has existed both in its righteous and unrighteous form, because satan has brought religion in its unrighteous form, while the true God has brought the Holy/Righteous law of faith, which is the way to return to harmony with Him, through a few for all

    Blessings
     
  5. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

    +3,495
    Canada
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    The point of the law is to put the flesh to death so it no longer rules over the mind. Rules are given because people are transgressing, people who feel the rules apply to them tend to get a common sense of irritation when they encounter those who feel unconcerned, as God has not directed them to be.
     
  6. CoolDude68

    CoolDude68 Well-Known Member Supporter

    543
    +718
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    So in the case of this fellow I know who keeps the OT laws (who is not a Jew) my response to him would be, "We are not under the Law, but under Grace." (NC) ?

    Sorry, I know this is slightly off course but I never had a biblical response to him when he tells me about how he keeps the Sabbath and can't eat pepperoni on his pizza.

    If he is not a Jew, why does he keep OT laws? It does cause him hardships because he has to sacrifice many things in this modern city we live in. He has to call off work for two weeks for the Feast and keeps can't work on Saturday for instance. He won't even cut the lawn on a Saturday.

    Thanks folks!
     
  7. readywriter

    readywriter Newbie

    89
    +24
    Non-Denom
    Married
    @Neogaia777

    Hello there,

    Please bear with me as I quote one or two relevant Scriptures, which you will undoubtedly be familiar with, but it is good to read again in relation to the subjects you have raised:-

    'Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you,
    do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.'

    (Mat 7:12)

    "'Jesus said unto him,
    'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
    and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.'

    This is the first and great commandment.
    And the second is like unto it,
    'Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.'
    On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.'
    (Mat 22:37-40)

    'Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
    that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel,
    and with the house of Judah:
    Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
    in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
    which my covenant they brake,
    although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
    After those days", saith the LORD,

    "I will put My law in their inward parts,
    and write it in their hearts;
    and will be their God, and they shall be My people.
    And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour,
    and every man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD:"
    for they shall all know Me,
    from the least of them unto the greatest of them," saith the LORD:
    " for I will forgive their iniquity,
    and I will remember their sin no more."
    (Jer.31:31-34) - Hebrews 8:6-13

    ... ... 'In that He saith, "A new covenant,"
    He hath made the first old.
    Now that which decayeth and waxeth old
    is ready to vanish away.'

    (Heb 8:13)

    * The old covenant was made with the children of Israel, and the new covenant will be made with them too. The nations (Gentiles) were never under the old covenant, and they were also never under the law of Sinai, which was a requirement of the old covenant, made with Israel; they knew only the law of conscience which is common to all men. The law of sin and death also being common to all born of Adam of course.

    * 'What is sin?' Sin is the root, and sins are the fruit. The root of sin is what Christ dealt with by His all-sufficient sacrifice: and we who are trusting in Him for salvation by God's grace, are to reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God; and walk accordingly. This is a faith position.

    * We are accepted in the beloved, and our standing in Christ is sure. We are now seen to be Holy and without blame in Christ Jesus, before God. That is by God's reckoning: for He has imputed His righteousness to us; and so that is what we reckon on by faith, and walk in the light of it, rejoicing in God's provision for us, in His Beloved Son.

    Praise His Holy Name!

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
  8. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

    +338
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Depends on what you are referring to as law. If you are talking about moral law that can condensed into the saying thought shalt love, i.e. be good willing. Then you are talking the laws of the very nature of our creation and creator that carry rewards for the keeping of them and punishments for their violation. If however you are talking about the rites and rituals of the Mosaic law. Then you are referring to something given to ancient Israel because of the transgressors of moral law in their midst's. Rites and rituals that only symbolically preached and taught the gospel and the law.

    Why did God do that? Because he was going to use ancient Israel to bring the Word of God and the Messiah into the world. Plus use their land as a D-Day beachhead in the long planned invasion of planet earth by his invisible Kingdom. Problem was. Most of ancient Israel were not saved by faith. What was he going to do with them? He desired all of them to be saved and herald the Gospel in advance. He wanted them all to enjoy the benefits and blessings of his kingdom. But most were not willing. Therefore not willing to be thwarted by the disobedient. He imposed on them the rites and rituals of the Mosaic law that preached the Gospel and morel law symbolically until the time of reformation when the messiah came. So those saved by faith in ancient Israel preached the Gospel of the Kingdom in advance, got to enjoy some of its benefits individually and nationally. Those who were disobedient, usually but not always a majority. They got to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom by preforming the rites and the rituals of the Mosaic law..........which is 110% done away with in Gods eye's.

    This is even the message of many prophetic events in the book of Genesis.

    Bible Symbolism in Genesis

    [​IMG]
    .
     
  9. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

    +4,142
    United States
    Charismatic
    Celibate
    US-Republican
    Develop the fruit of the Spirit, beginning with love. But you must have the baptism of the Holy Spirit in order to have fruit. And the only way to have the Holy Spirit is through allowing Jesus to be your Master, and to turn away from sin and turn toward God.
     
  10. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things" Supporter

    +4,069
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Because of Christ and now that Jeremiah 31:33 is fulfilled. (also Hebrews chapter 10 points at this prophecy being fulfilled, and we remember Paul is writing to those thinking of the "law" (in Paul's epistles) as the "law" had been before Christ, what people thought of as the "law", outward forms, sacrifices, etc., e.g. not yet done "in spirit and in truth".)

    But now we have the law fulfilled, and written on our hearts.

    And how is this now in our hearts? For one thing, it's that we can know now from checking in our hearts (now, having come fully to Christ and being born anew) how to do this well --

    "So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the prophets."

    We can now "love one another as I have loved you."

    --------------
    (some additional pieces -- wonderfully, Christ now has told us the law as the two greatest commandments, and this law is now written on our hearts. Inside. No longer an external form, no longer an outward or legalistic law, but a true "in spirit and in truth" law written on our hearts. We all sin, as in 1 John chapter 1, and when we confess our sins to God, He is just and merciful to forgive! Hallelujah! We learn to pray to the Father, "And forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us". This is a vastly better situation for us than before Christ came. We are under the law fulfilled (the 'law of love' as some say it).)
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  11. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +2,989
    Messianic
    Single
    The the Word "Torah" means "instruction" and can be used to any instructions of God, which ranges from a specific set of instructions, such as the Torah of the grain offering (Leviticus 6:14) to include all of both the OT and NT, so it is inclusive of all of God's instructions, though it usually refers to His instructions in the five books of Moses. When "instructions" come with penalties for not obeying them, then they can be appropriately translated as "Law", but we should not lose sight the fact that the purpose of God's Law is to instruct how to rightly live in accordance with His attributes so that we reflect those attributes to the world: holiness, righteousness, goodness (Romans 7:12), justice, mercy, faithfulness (Matthew 23:23), love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control (Exodus 34:6-7, Galatians 5:23-24). God's attributes are eternal, so the way to act in accordance with them existed before God made any covenants with man, so it is not dependant on any particular covenant, though it has been revealed through them, which that there is a distinction between a set of eternal instructions for how to act in accordance with God's eternal attributes and a covenant agreement to live by those instructions.
     
  12. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +2,989
    Messianic
    Single
    In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized all of the Law and the Prophets as being instructions for how God wants us to love Him and our neighbor, not just the Ten Commandments. The Greatest two commands are the greatest because they encapsulate all of the other commands and all of the other commands hang on the greatest two commands because they are all commentary or examples that paint a picture for how to correctly obey the greatest two commands.
     
  13. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +2,989
    Messianic
    Single
    Paul said that the Law was given to make us conscious of sin (Romans 3:20), but did not specify that only the Ten Commandments were given for that purpose, but rather sin is disobedience to any of God's commands. In Romans 7:25, Paul said he delighted in obeying God's Law and served it with his mind, but was held captive by a law of sin that was causing him not to do the good that he wanted to, which he served with his flesh, so it is important to correctly distinguish between which of the two laws he was talking about us not being under in Romans 6:14, and I see nothing from the context that he was speaking about us not being under God's Law, but rather it is the law of sin that we are not under when we are under grace. This is confirmed in Psalms 119:29, where David asked God to show His grace to him by teaching him to obey His Law, so if we are under God's grace, then we are under God's Law. This is also confirmed in Titus 2:11-14, where our salvation is described as being trained to do thing which are in accordance with what the Law was given to instruct. While the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's Law, nowhere does it specify that the Spirit leads us only to obey the Ten Commandments. Likewise, Matthew 18:5-6 doesn't specify that Jesus was only speaking about the Ten Commandments, so you should rethink whether it is a good idea to teach children children that that only have to keep the Ten Commandments and are free to do everything else God revealed to be sin.
     
  14. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +2,989
    Messianic
    Single
    According to Psalms 119:142, God's Law is truth, according to 1 John 3:4, sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law, and according to Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so repenting from our disobedience to God's Law is an integral part of the Gospel message and of the Mosaic Covenant. There are 1,050 commands in the NT, so it is a mistake to refer to the Mosaic covenant as a law covenant if the implication is that the New Covenant is not. God showed has always been a God of grace (Exodus 34:6-7) and has shown his grace to people throughout the OT (Genesis 6:8-9, Psalms 119:29), so it would likewise be a mistake for someone to refer to the New Covenant as a covenant of grace if the implication is that other covenants are not. The Law is the way (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Jeremiah 6:16-19, Psalms 119:1), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 30:15-20, Proverbs 3:18, Matthew 19:17), Messiah is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6), the Law is God's Word, and Messiah is God's Word made flesh.
     
  15. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +2,989
    Messianic
    Single
    Hello,

    It is important to understand that in the 1st century what was being taught as the Mosaic Law had been infused with countless man-made oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences. In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the commands of God for the sake of their traditions. He went on to say that for the sake of their traditions they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they worshiped God in vain because they taught as doctrine the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrite for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions (Mark 7:6-9), so the major problem that Jesus had with the Pharisees was that they were teaching their own traditions instead of teaching the Mosaic Law. In Matthew 23:2-4, Jesus certainly was not criticizing the Pharisees for teaching the people to do what God had commanded, but rather he was referring to their many traditions as placing a heavy burden on the people. So we need to be careful to correctly distinguish between God's Law and man's law so that we do not make the mistake of taking something that was only against obeying man's law as being against obeying God.

    For example, in Acts 15:1, Jews were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, but this is not a requirement found anywhere in God's Law. While God's' Law did require all Jews to become circumcised, not even they were required to do so in order to become saved, and if God did not require it for salvation, then it is therefore a man-made requirement, and the Jerusalem Council was upholding God's Law by rejecting that requirement. The OT, especially the Psalms, and in particular Psalms 119 is full of extremely high praise for the Law, so it is contradictory for someone to believe what David said about the Law is true and to believe that the Law is a heavy burden that no one could bear. God said that that what he commanded was not too difficult for us (Deuteronomy 30:11-14), so to interpret that as referring to God's Law is to call Him a liar, but rather they were referring to man-made oral laws and traditions, and simply expressing the same opinion of them as Jesus had expressed.

    Another example is in Acts 10:28, where Peter referred to a law that forbade Jews from visiting or associating with Gentiles, but this law is not found anywhere in God's Law and is in fact contrary to it (Leviticus 19:34). It was this law that Peter was obeying in Galatians 2:11-16 when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles, and by doing so, he was giving credence to the people who were saying that Gentiles had to obey their works of law in order to become saved, which is why Paul rebuked him and immediately reiterated that we are saved by faith, not by man-made works of law.

    In Acts 15:19-21, the stated goal was to not make things difficult for new believers coming to faith, so they were not talking about an exhaustive list of everything that would ever be required of mature believers, but rather they were speaking about a starting point, which they excused by saying that Gentiles would continue to learn what would be required of them by hearing Moses taught every Sabbath in the synagogues.

    It really does not make sense to say that God's Law was given to reveal what sin is, that Gentiles are not required to obey God's Law, and that Gentiles are required to avoid doing what God has revealed to be sin.
     
  16. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +2,989
    Messianic
    Single
    According to Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that what He commanded was not too difficult for us, but that His Word is near us, in our hearts and in our mouths so that we can do it, and Romans 10:5-10 quotes this passage in regard to what our faith says, so to say that we can not obey God's commands is to call Him a liar and deny what our faith says.
     
  17. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member

    +1,964
    United Kingdom
    Non-Denom
    Married
    So you can supply evidence that you are able to keep all of Gods commands?
     
  18. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member

    +1,964
    United Kingdom
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Just what are you trying to say?

    Are you saying we should obey God's law, which as Jesus has fulfilled the ceremonial law only leave the 10 C,or are you saying we shuld ignore gods law. Because as god is a God of order is not something the spirit of God will ever lead you to do.
     
  19. Bryce Harris

    Bryce Harris New Member

    31
    +14
    Pentecostal
    In Relationship
    The law of old was the guidelines given to Isreal for them to follow but in reality, they were given to show how imperfect man is and his inability to follow God's expectations within our own power, therefore, making man humbled and to look for a coming redeemer. That's what all the old testament sacrifices were about. Every time someone failed God and didn't keep his laws they were to offer a lamb as a sacrifice giving all their sins to that innocent lamb making the lamb die in his place in order to cover up their past sins. That was a picture of when Jesus Christ would come and live perfectly in the law being completely innocent therefore taking the punishment of sin upon himself at the cross and giving us his holiness. As you can see the whole Bible rather it be old or new testament is the story of Man falling and unable to pick himself up no matter what and the imperfection and evilness of man and Jesus Christ picking man up where they can live how they ought to through him.
     
  20. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

    +3,391
    Non-Denom
    Celibate
    Isn't that the law and gospel...?

    Glorious!

    God Bless!
     
Loading...