What is the Historical Gospel of Jesus Christ?

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P1LGR1M

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It is the way you discuss. You always goad people with leading questions.

Asking a question is not goading.

Making derisive comments about people is.

Who is guilty?


You don't want to discuss, but lecture.

If I didn't want to discuss I wouldn't ask questions.

If it seems like a lecture to you it may be advisable to pay attention to what is being said.


You are unteachable.

Another false charge: teach me.

Correct me.

That is the purpose of a Christian Doctrinal Discussion and Debate Forum.

Show me the lecture in these simple questions:



It's a strange fringe belief that born-again believers are not under Law?

So you are saying that we, born-again believers, Christians—are under Law?

We are to keep the Law?

We are to keep the Ten Commandments?


Why did you not answer at least one of them?

Please answer and stay on the topic. All of this is relevant to the OP.


God bless.
 
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Daniel Peres

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That's not what the parable of the sheep and the goats is about. Matthew 25:31-46
When it comes to textual interpretation of this parable, I can assure you it is the plain meaning of the text. Of course, you are free to choose some fancy technique that avoids the plain meaning. This is not the first time I've heard a Protestant make that kind of argument.

This happens all of the time with the Epistle of James 2:24 where modern Protestants will make clever arguments to avoid the plain meaning. They make these clever arguments even though the founder of the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther, acknowledged that the verse contradicted Paul's alleged teaching on Sola Fide. Why do you think Luther demoted the Epistle of James to a second-class status among the other NT epistles, and even called it the "Epistle of Straw?"

In fact, in his book Word and Sacrament, Luther wrote the reason that he hated the Epistle was, "that James is “flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works.”" Yet 500 years later, the modern Protestants insist that James 2:24 does not contradict the Sola Fide doctrine at all. They have the arrogant belief that they have solved Luther's problem with James 2:24 by using clever alternative interpretation theories to prove that James did not mean what Luther believed he meant. No, the modern Protestant view seems to be that James was an idiot who didn't know how to communicate is thoughts effectively, and therefore, Christians must ignore the plain meaning of the verse and instead make an alternative interpretation, based solely on fancy intellectual foot work, to prove that James meant the opposite of what he wrote.
 
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Daniel Peres

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Asking a question is not goading.

Making derisive comments about people is.

Who is guilty?




If I didn't want to discuss I wouldn't ask questions.

If it seems like a lecture to you it may be advisable to pay attention to what is being said.




Another false charge: teach me.

Correct me.

That is the purpose of a Christian Doctrinal Discussion and Debate Forum.

Show me the lecture in these simple questions:




It's a strange fringe belief that born-again believers are not under Law?

So you are saying that we, born-again believers, Christians—are under Law?

We are to keep the Law?

We are to keep the Ten Commandments?


Why did you not answer at least one of them?

Please answer and stay on the topic. All of this is relevant to the OP.


God bless.

There are two types of laws related to your question. There are the Levitical Laws which, the Catholic Church acknowledges, no longer need to be followed. This is clearly seen in the Council of Jerusalem described in the NT. To teach that the Levitical laws must be obeyed by Christians is called Judaizing.

The other type of law is found in the moral law of the Ten Commandments, eleven if you count Jesus' new commandment, he that he revealed on the night before his crucifixion (BTW, does it make sense that Jesus would issue a new commandment that would only in effect for a few hours only?) Anyway, Jesus teaches over and over again that the commandments must be followed, in fact he was clear that those who loved him followed his commandments. Of course, maybe your one of those Protestants that actually believe Christians don't need to love Jesus. I have met some who actually believe that while simultaneously say Christians must have a personal relationship with Jesus. How can a there be a relationship when one party shows love but the other does not.

Additionally, Paul also explains how the moral law must be obeyed. For example, in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Paul clearly states, "Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God." Don't you see that the Christians that violate the moral law of the Ten Commandments will not be saved despite their faith in Jesus. I say despite their faith in Jesus, because Paul was referring to immoral Christians, and not Pagans. You have clearly accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Do you honestly believe you will be saved if you engage in the sins listed by Paul in the above verse?

So, when Catholics read the Epistle of James, we don't see James talking about Faith and works of the Levitical Law because James specifically describes works that bring comfort to a suffering Christian, and those works have nothing to do with the Levitical Laws. The good works described by James have to do with the "Love thy Neighbor" commandment. This is completely different to the "works of the law" Paul rightfully explained were of no value for salvation.
 
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ViaCrucis

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There were believers in Rome, but there is no mention of a church. In John's letters to the seven churches, Revelation 1:11. There is no mention of a church in Rome.

How are there believers in Rome but not a church there?

Why would the Revelation, which is addressed to seven churches in the Roman province of Asia, mention any other churches other than the ones it is addresed to?

If I write a letter to you, that doesn't mean you're the only person that exists.

Of course the Church existed in Rome, just as it did in Corinth, Thessalonika, Collosse, Philipi, in Galatia, in Ephesus, in Laodicea, Smyrna, and in Alexandria, and in Antioch, and in Jerusalem, and many, many other places.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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What about:

"This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." Romans 2:16

The Gospel which Paul preached. Rather than a gospel about Paul or has its origins in Paul. There isn't a good news about Paul, but there is the Good News of Jesus which Paul preached.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Valletta

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It is very apparent that Paul's Gospel is hidden, 2 Corinthians 4:3. If it was not hidden from you, you would not be a Catholic.
Is there anyone else of your religion who thinks the same? Paul is openly preaching the Gospel, Paul is not afraid and he speaks out. But, as so often is the case in the Bible, people hear the words but some are blinded to the truth. The Devil is always at work, he does not sleep. Finally, without the Catholic Church we would not be reading Corinthians.
 
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RobertPate

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Is there anyone else of your religion who thinks the same? Paul is openly preaching the Gospel, Paul is not afraid and he speaks out. But, as so often is the case in the Bible, people hear the words but some are blinded to the truth. The Devil is always at work, he does not sleep. Finally, without the Catholic Church we would not be reading Corinthians.
All that the Catholics did was to compile the books of the Bible. Paul wrote Corinthians not the Catholic church.
 
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RobertPate

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How are there believers in Rome but not a church there?

Why would the Revelation, which is addressed to seven churches in the Roman province of Asia, mention any other churches other than the ones it is addresed to?

If I write a letter to you, that doesn't mean you're the only person that exists.

Of course the Church existed in Rome, just as it did in Corinth, Thessalonika, Collosse, Philipi, in Galatia, in Ephesus, in Laodicea, Smyrna, and in Alexandria, and in Antioch, and in Jerusalem, and many, many other places.

-CryptoLutheran
Then why didn't John include it in his letters to the churches? Revelation 1:11.
 
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Valletta

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All that the Catholics did was to compile the books of the Bible. Paul wrote Corinthians not the Catholic church.
Catholics not only wrote the New Testament, but went out and preached the Gospel over all of these centuries and translated and preserved the Bible so that you and I have it today. I was wondering about that passage of Corinthians, is that a personal translation or part of a particular denomination or religion?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Then why didn't John include it in his letters to the churches? Revelation 1:11.

Because he was writing to them. He was writing to the seven churches in Asia.

Do you believe there were only seven churches in the world, and they all just happened to be in one single Roman province?

Dude.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Der Alte

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Catholics not only wrote the New Testament, but went out and preached the Gospel over all of these centuries and translated and preserved the Bible so that you and I have it today. I was wondering about that passage of Corinthians, is that a personal translation or part of a particular denomination or religion?
Yes and no. Depends on your understanding of Catholic.
The word "Catholic" is derived from the Greek phrase "Kata holos" which means "according to the whole." It occurs 6 times in the N.T.
καθολης /kathole's [1] Luke 4:14, [2] Luke 8:39, [3] Luke 23:5, [4] Acts of the Apostles 9:31, [5] Acts of the Apostles 9:42, [6] Acts of the Apostles 10:37
But, there was no "Catholic church" with a Pope in Rome at its head governing the entire church until 1075 when Gregory VII issued the Dictatus Papae in which he unilaterally assumed control of the church. Until that time all church bishops had equal authority.

Dictatus papae | papal claims


підтримати Україну

 
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Valletta

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Yes and no. Depends on your understanding of Catholic.
The word "Catholic" is derived from the Greek phrase "Kata holos" which means "according to the whole." It occurs 6 times in the N.T.
καθολης /kathole's [1] Luke 4:14, [2] Luke 8:39, [3] Luke 23:5, [4] Acts of the Apostles 9:31, [5] Acts of the Apostles 9:42, [6] Acts of the Apostles 10:37
But, there was no "Catholic church" with a Pope in Rome at its head governing the entire church until 1075 when Gregory VII issued the Dictatus Papae in which he unilaterally assumed control of the church. Until that time all church bishops had equal authority.

Dictatus papae | papal claims


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St. Ignatius of Antioch used the word "Catholic" meaning "universal" circa 110 A.D. and at that time he was confident enough to assume his audience would understand it:
"HAP. VIII.--LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP. See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution(17) of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(18) Eucharist, which is[administered] either even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
Seven Epistles of St. Ignatius of Antioch | EWTN

As to the selection of the New Testament by the Catholic Church, the process spanned centuries. Saint Athanasius is credited with the first Biblical canon (NT) containing the same books in the same order we use today. The list is contained in his Thirty-Ninth Festal Letter of 367 A.D. This list was approved by Pope Damasus, and formally approved of by Councils at Hippo and Carthage in the late 300s. Pope Innocent I wrote a letter to the Bishop of Toulouse in 405 A.D. containing the list.
 
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Der Alte

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St. Ignatius of Antioch used the word "Catholic" meaning "universal" circa 110 A.D. and at that time he was confident enough to assume his audience would understand it:
"HAP. VIII.--LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP. See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution(17) of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(18) Eucharist, which is[administered] either even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

Seven Epistles of St. Ignatius of Antioch | EWTN
As to the selection of the New Testament by the Catholic Church, the process spanned centuries. Saint Athanasius is credited with the first Biblical canon (NT) containing the same books in the same order we use today. The list is contained in his Thirty-Ninth Festal Letter of 367 A.D. This list was approved by Pope Damasus, and formally approved of by Councils at Hippo and Carthage in the late 300s. Pope Innocent I wrote a letter to the Bishop of Toulouse in 405 A.D. containing the list.
And I am sure you are correct but as I said. The Greek phrase "Kata Holos" which means "according to the whole" occurs 6 times in the NT. It was not until 1075 when the bishop of Rome Gregory issued his Dictatus Papae placing himself in charge of the church. If the bishop of Rome had such authority prior to Gregory it would not be necessary for anyone to issue the dictates.
 
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MMXX

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When it comes to textual interpretation of this parable, I can assure you it is the plain meaning of the text. Of course, you are free to choose some fancy technique that avoids the plain meaning. This is not the first time I've heard a Protestant make that kind of argument.

This happens all of the time with the Epistle of James 2:24 where modern Protestants will make clever arguments to avoid the plain meaning. They make these clever arguments even though the founder of the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther, acknowledged that the verse contradicted Paul's alleged teaching on Sola Fide. Why do you think Luther demoted the Epistle of James to a second-class status among the other NT epistles, and even called it the "Epistle of Straw?"

In fact, in his book Word and Sacrament, Luther wrote the reason that he hated the Epistle was, "that James is “flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works.”" Yet 500 years later, the modern Protestants insist that James 2:24 does not contradict the Sola Fide doctrine at all. They have the arrogant belief that they have solved Luther's problem with James 2:24 by using clever alternative interpretation theories to prove that James did not mean what Luther believed he meant. No, the modern Protestant view seems to be that James was an idiot who didn't know how to communicate is thoughts effectively, and therefore, Christians must ignore the plain meaning of the verse and instead make an alternative interpretation, based solely on fancy intellectual foot work, to prove that James meant the opposite of what he wrote.
It's clearly about charity towards others. Which is what the Catholic church teaches it's about.
 
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Daniel Peres

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All that the Catholics did was to compile the books of the Bible. Paul wrote Corinthians not the Catholic church.
So, you just ignore the fact that this option of yours contradicts all legitimate historians. Even the atheist and Protestant historians that hate the Catholic Church disagree with you. But you, of course, believe you are smarter than them in discussing historical matters. Why should anyone believe you. You actually believe that Paul, who was not a king, wrote a gospel, which of course, is absolutely impossible since only a king can issue a gospel/evangelium.

I will just say to you something similar to what Jesus said to the Pharisees. If you were blind and uneducated on matters of history, you would not be guilty of spreading lies, but you arrogantly insist that you see the truth, so your guilt remains.

BTW, you never answered my question, "Are you an Evangelical Christian that does not understand the meaning of Evangelium? In providing your answer I suggest you follow Jesus's advice in Matthew 5:37 when he said, "All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ anything beyond this comes from the evil one."

I apologize to everyone for sounding so mean towards this man, but he is an abnormal Protestant. His beliefs have no basis in reality.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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From what I've read from Messianics, they're diametrically opposed to the Catholic church, which is what the Orthodox church essentially is. As for what you said, since you worded it in such a Hebrew-ish way I'm not sure I entirely understood it.

I am not fond of the church of Rome either. The East and West have differed all the way since the beginning...I mean look at Rome's doctrine of Original sin, fasting on the Sabbath, papal infallability, purgatory, IC, and the list goes on...
 
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Daniel Peres

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It's clearly about charity towards others. Which is what the Catholic church teaches it's about.
It's not just about that. More importantly, Jesus explained that if you want to love him you must love one another as the sheep did. Conversely, he said if you don't love one another then you don't love me. That was the case with the goats, and we all know what happened to them. Can you imagine being a Christian who has behaved like a goat and having to hear your Lord and Savior say to you, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Imagine hearing these painful words from someone you supposedly loved with all your heart, strength, and mind. The goats were not Pagans, they were Christians, and yet because they refused to love their fellow man, they discovered that Jesus believed they never loved him at all.

I don't see how anyone cannot see the importance of being a Christian who behaves like a sheep.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Makes no difference to me—as long as the teaching of Judaizers is shut down.

It's not a matter of "how" the Law is followed, it is a matter of whether the Law has to be followed.

And it is a matter that you didn't think the Law had been changed, which means you simply don't know. It isn't something we have to "think about."

You can back-peddle all you want, the fact remains that the statement "He changed it" stands, because it is a Basic Truth of New Covenant Relationship.

You can tell people to "keep the Law" but the fact is that "keeping the Law" is an impossibility for believers in this Age, and has been since the First Century.

Your teaching must therefore be changed to "Keep the Law that hasn't been changed."

When those who were in relationship with God through the Covenant of Law were commanded to keep the Law they weren't given a buffet of recommendations they could pick and choose from.

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


So I'd like to see in the New Testament where exactly you have been given license to prescribe Partial-Law to men.

Please show that you are interpreting the Word of God properly as Jesus Christ did when He was under Law.

Continued...

LOL, I never said any of what you said I did! You are not interested in learning truth, just arguing. Please show the earth is flat and there are only 2 planets in our solar system since it is obvious you think that is true LOL!
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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It is God that gives me liberty to spend time trying to help others understand His Word better.

But you don't do that...because you yourself do not understand it...a blind teacher makes the student blind also and both fall into the ditch...
 
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