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What is "The Great tribulation"?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Fullness of the Gentiles, Jan 10, 2022.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree. However, Scripture does not identify it.
     
  2. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The choice:

    1. Verifiable history which confirms Scripture
    2. Unverifiable futurity which can confirm nothing

    I'll take #1. Every time.
     
  3. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished (final), as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

    The 7th Trumpet is the end of all prophetic Scripture. Except Revelation 20-22. The 1000 year reign is after the 7th Trumpet.
     
  4. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What verse is that?
     
  5. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    70AD was not the end. The 7th Trumpet is the end.

    You asked for 1 verse. You got two verses. You would have claimed Matthew 24 is not about the 7th Trumpet, but it is the end.
     
  6. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Not the final one. More tribulation happened after 70AD. I already asked how many final tribulations, and the response was indicative of never ending ever because the word final is not explicit. The end is the end, period.

    "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

    This is the end after all that is mentioned in the prior verses. The next verse is not after the end. The next verse is the next/last point brought up right before the end.
     
  7. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 24:21 is describing what John witnessed in Revelation 8-10. It will not be against the church either. They will have been glorified before that point. Some call the glorification process an escape.
     
  8. 3 Resurrections

    3 Resurrections That's 666 YEARS, folks

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    A "false sense of security and an unwarranted complacency"? Hardly. We have scripture's promise that "Yeah, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (2 Timothy 3:12). It has always been the case, and always will be the case that those "born after the flesh" will persecute "those born after the Spirit" (Galatians 4:29). These are innately opposed to one another, with persecution of the saints as the inevitable result. It's just that this ongoing type of persecution for believers is not what was called "the Great Tribulation of those days", which was a period that came and went long ago.

    The prediction in Matthew 24:21 was that there would continue to be episodes of tribulation for the believers throughout time, but none that would exactly duplicate that particular type of tribulation taking place in the period called "the Great Tribulation".

    Because God made good on carrying out the "Days of Vengeance" on that "wicked and perverse generation" of Jews who caused His sufferings and death by having the entire Satanic realm descend on them in their "last state", this need not cause us to be "high-minded". Quite the opposite. It should cause us to feel a deeper appreciation that God has extended grace to us.

    Because God used that particular "wicked and perverse generation" to bring about the end of the Satanic realm in this world, I am deeply grateful that this is an enemy whose presence in this world I no longer have to contend with. As you have touched on in your comment above, the presently-remaining threat to believers is the deception lurking in our own hearts, and the opposition to the Spirit that those "born after the flesh" would like to impose on those who are "born after the Spirit". This should be enough to keep us humble, and busy for a lifetime.
     
  9. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    This has been nonstop for the last 1991 years. Do you all not understand what "The End" means? No more sin. No more transgression. All prophecy complete. The Gospel will still be a compelling call for the church to carry out. When has the church 100% been told to stop spreading the gospel message? Probably only 5% do so, but it has not stopped 100%.

    The gospel message of the church will stop when the church is glorified, and all will know when that happens. Jesus Christ the Prince will be on the earth at that point. Then the end and final tribulation start. The gospel will be spread by an angel at that point, instead of the church, but the gospel will still go out, after the church is glorified.

    "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"
     
  10. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    When did history stop? 700AD was the last of history? What about 2030? Will that be history?

    No such thing as "unverifiable futurity". It is called prophecy. Why not just use the Scriptural term. It is called Faith and Trust in God. Noah built an ark based on your "unverifiable futurity". Actually Noah built it because of faith and trust in God.

    I think I will go with faith and trust in God over your "verifiable history".
     
  11. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The verse that declares that "final tribulation" over after the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

    The harvest at the end of the world when the angels come with Christ as Prince at the Second Coming. Per Matthew 13.

    Revelation is John's version of the Olivet Discourse plus a whole lot more, since he was there in person as an eyewitness witness.

    I have yet to hear a Historicist claim John was an historian and Revelation was an historical record.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022 at 11:21 AM
  12. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why, unlike virtually every other poster, do you refuse to provide full reference attribution?

    Are you distorting something again?
     
  13. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Do you not think that 8 billion people dying in a matter of a few years is not a time of great tribulation and distress? The whole world is about to expire, and many think that it will never happen in a million years, because "soon" meant 66.6AD. Those 42 months cannot compare to the coming 42 months, where Satan and his angels along with the FP and beast are in control. And their authority is nothing compared to God's direct authority and judgment.
     
  14. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    You asked for a verse, and I combined two verses into one.
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is no such verse.
     
  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you know what full reference attribution is?
     
  17. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    i would say my position, in regards to Matthew 24:34, aligns most closely with John Gill.

    The olivet discourse was not about the future physical end of the world, nor the future final coming of Christ. It was completely fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem when Christ “came in judgement” upon that nation. Thus, Jesus’ prophecy rang true and that 1st century generation experienced those events. But again, this does not preclude the future final coming of Christ.

    Gills exposition:

    “but some should live till all these things were fulfilled; see Matthew 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.”
    (Matthew 24:34 Commentaries: "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
    )
     
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  18. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    You're right. Not explicitly. My own human intellect allows me to regard it as a legitimate inference to make though, when comparing Matthew 24:29-31 with other passages and statements in the New Testament. But I'm a futurist who believes that Christ's return is still coming.
     
  19. Fullness of the Gentiles

    Fullness of the Gentiles One nation in Christ Supporter

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    I think he proved to you that the tribulation of Christians and persecution of Christians is mentioned over and over again in scripture. We can make the inferences that we will, but the tribulation of Christians and a time of great tribulation for Christians is certainly on the table for all Christians, especially those who are alive immediately preceding the Lord's return.

    Luke 21:20-24 makes no sense if interpreted in terms of persecution and tribulation of Christians, but Matthew 24:9-31 certainly makes total sense as a reference to the tribulation of saints when considering the fact that the entire passage is joined into one long discourse by the use of the words "and", "therefore", "but", and "for". The introduction to the tribulation the Lord is speaking about is in Matthew 24:9.

    That does not mean that the tribulation experienced by the Jews in A.D 70 was not a time of great tribulation for the Jews (it most certainly was, and probably the greatest period of tribulation that had ever been since the world was until that time),

    but you're making inferences that you can only make if you ignore all the passages and parts of scripture that @ewq1938 quoted in his reply to your post (and many others besides).
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022 at 1:34 PM
  20. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    To establish your case, you would need to provide credible disproofs of the plethora of historical and Scriptural evidence amassed by Bro. Woodrow that I've cited (and there is much more).

    You would need to discard the entire historical testimony of Josephus and other cited Roman historians, who overwhelmingly corroborate the content of Matthew 24.

    You would need to provide citations of any recognized Christian or other scholars and commentators for 17 centuries of post-apostolic history prior to the 19th century who espoused a full modernist dispensationalist futurist view of Matthew 24.

    What do you think?
     
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