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Featured What is the Gospel?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    They are chosen by leniency. They didn’t fulfill the law perfectly. But they obeyed the important parts of the law, which is the same as not bowing their knees to Baal. However, since they keep following the minor parts of the law, they are saying Jews are clean, transgressing the new covenant. So they are cut off. They are the cut off remnant.

    The text says two nations were in Rachel’s womb:

    Genesis 25:23The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger."

    Israel is chosen to be the vessel of dishonor!

    Which has no points that identify separation based on nationality. No declaration of which nation is clean.

    Wrong. Romans 5:12 does not says “in whom all sinned” but “because of which all sinned”. Romans 5:19 says just as Adam’s disobedience brought death into the world, so Christ’s obedience brought life into the world. How? By making law enforcable, through humanity gaining the knowledge of good and evil.

    Do you mean to say that Christ’s obedience resulted in resurrection to wrath for non believers? That before Christ, non believers were not destined to be resurrected?

    Wrong. Sin and death reigned in the fallen Adam because he jumped the gun, attained the knowledge of good and evil before his body of death was subdued, and his conscience told him he had done wrong even before the formal covenant of law came, just as it does to Gentiles, and he could not be in union with God. So he did die, spiritually, as soon as he disobeyed.

    Spiritual death. Separation from God and the tree of life. Which includes physical death.

    Jews by definition are the clean people.If Gentiles are also a clean people in the new covenant, then there is no difference between a Jew and a Gentile, except to describe their origin.
    All are clean, so there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles.
    Not Jews. The entrance requirement to become People of God is to be clean. People of Jewish origin are clean. People of Gentile origin are clean. So all nationalities are eligibe to become People of God.
    So the unreal can’t be real.

    You gave that answer to the statement that the unreal/invisible cannot be real, implying God is unreal.
    Non sensical means not making sense:

    The moon is square=not making sense

    Saying Mr Smith is Mr Jones= not making sense.

    On this planet , anyway.
    Hindusim is vague, claims everything is true, and everything is false. Since faith is not rational, no one can prove or disprove its faith claims. However, there are many branches of Hinduism which condemns the faction that teaches the idea that the world is “maya”.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
  2. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    They can do works, with their hands, their mouths (preaching), their pocketbooks (giving of alms), their minds (praying for others), etc.

    Only those are barred who did not do good works due to laziness and wickedness (Matthew 25:26,30).

    Only Christians are clean (1 Corinthians 6:11), and they include Jews and Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    They don't need to, because they already are (Romans 11:1-5).

    Gentiles did become Jews if they followed the law (Numbers 9:14, Leviticus 19:34).

    No, the Old Covenant was still imperfect (Hebrews 8:7) because it could not take away sins (Hebrews 10:4-10).

    No, by following Christ's ways (Hebrews 5:9).

    And He shows in the Sermon on the Mount how His New Covenant, Christian commandments are even stricter than the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even calling people names (Matthew 5:22). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover that their newlywed wife is not a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

    Jesus Christ also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while His New Covenant, Christian law is stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it is also more merciful. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43, Deuteronomy 23:6), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), while Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required that anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), while Jesus allowed His disciples to work on the sabbath, and said that they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus Himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

    So in obeying Jesus Christ's New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29, John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 14:37), Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and also exceed in righteousness those who mistakenly try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

    No, for elect Israelites remained God's people (Romans 11:1-5).
    Not from elect Israel (Hebrews 12:28).

    It will become physical (Luke 22:30).

    It does still exist (Acts 22:3).


    Some did (Luke 1:6).

    Romans 9:12-13 employs the difference between Jacob and Esau (Genesis 25:23-26, Malachi 1:2b-3) only as a type, not to represent the difference between the literal, genetic nations of Israel (Jacob: Genesis 32:28) and Edom (Esau: Genesis 36:43b), but to represent the difference between, on the one hand, all elect individuals from all nations (Romans 9:6-13, Galatians 3:28-29, Galatians 4:28), both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24), and, on the other hand, all nonelect individuals from all nations, both some Jews and some Gentiles, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-18, Exodus 9:12,16). Just as the individual babies in Romans 9:11-13 were either elected/loved or nonelected/hated by God before they were born, so all of the elect and nonelect individuals whom they represent were either elected/loved or nonelected/hated by God as individuals, not only before they were born, but even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13).

    Romans 5:19 says as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Romans 5:19a is the doctrine of original sin.

    Because of original sin, we are all guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived in the womb (Psalms 51:5). So even as babies, we are sinful (Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10).

    No, sin and death reigned in Adam even before the law (Romans 5:13-14).

    Christ’s obedience resulted in His being the one who will ultimately judge them (John 5:22).

    They were (Isaiah 66:24).

    For what is eternally punishing (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11) about the future, "Gehenna" hell (Luke 12:5, Greek) is fire eternally burning the physical body, and worms eternally eating the physical body (Mark 9:46, Isaiah 66:24). The physical bodies of non-Christians in Gehenna need not be exactly like people have now, which do not regenerate parts of themselves if those parts are burned or eaten. For before non-Christians are cast into the Gehenna hell (also called the lake of fire), they will be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:12-15, John 5:29b). And their new, physical resurrection bodies could eternally regenerate parts of themselves whenever those parts are burned or eaten. But then the regenerated parts could be burned or eaten again, only to regenerate again, only to be burned or eaten again, and so on, forever: an everlasting suffering (Revelation 14:10-11).

    In Gehenna the fire will never go out (Mark 9:46). It will never run out of fuel, but will continue to punish non-Christians forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15). The fact that the fire will already be burning before the physical resurrection bodies of non-Christians are cast into it (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15) means that their bodies will not be the fire's fuel. The fire will have its own source of fuel by which it will burn/punish non-Christians forever (Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

    Of course (Revelation 5:9).

    But not all individuals (Romans 9:17-22).

    Not at all. What has been said is that the invisible can be real, for God is both (1 Timothy 1:17).

    But seeing Smith across a room and thinking that you're seeing Jones (because they look similar) is simply mistaken. It's not saying that they are the same person, which would be nonsensical.

    Hinduism does not claim that the Gospel is true (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
  3. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    The secular courts exempt minors and the insane from obligations, but God is less merciful?
    You are contradicting your statement that ALL have to ultimately produce works.
    In the Old Covenant, only Jews were clean, were eligible to be the People of God, Gentiles were unclean. In the New Covenant, who are clean, eligible to be the People of God?
    But you said Old Covenant Jews had to become New Covenant Jews. You seem to be making things complicated, when it is very simple. There are no more special nations, like the Jewish nation, because now there is no eligibility requirements. All nations are clean. All nationalities are eligible to become People of God.
    I mean no one ever saw Israel receiving the Kingdom of God, eternal life, and was then inspired to become a Jew. Israel never produced followers of God, fruit. The Kingdom of God was near Israel, made available, but she never possessed it, entered Rest, because she never followed the law perfectly. Finally it was taken away and given to the Gentiles, who possessed it by being loyal to God, pursuing a righteousness that is by faith.

    Matthew 21:43“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. 44“And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.”

    Romans 9:30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33As it is written:

    “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
    and a rock that makes them fall,
    and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”m

    That’s what I said. The Old Covenant only produced slaves, who receive wages, not sons who receive love, gifts (John 3:16). Israel could only produce sons if she avoided Hagar, who produced the Old Covenant. She should have waited for Sarah, who produced the New Covenant. However, when Israel asked for the Law, God permitted it, because the Law protected Israel till Christ was sent.

    Under the Old Covenant, Israel could become God’s People, by being doers of the Law, both minor as well as important points. This would result in being protected by the law. They would receive the blessings of Deuteronomy 30 and Gentiles would be inspired to become God’s People. This is the vineyard producing fruit, followers of God.

    However, Israel observed only the minor points, which they thought identified them as Abraham’s seeds. They thought this would result in the privilege of being blessings to the world reaching them. Instead, the fruit produced were disciples who were bigger devils than the proselytisers, and the vineyard became a den of thieves.

    Gentiles couldn’t become God’s People because they did not have a covenant with minor as well as important requirements. However, they had a conscience, and when they kept the major points of the law through conscience, observed justice, mercy and loyalty to God, they were protected by this observance.

    Under the New Covenant, all nationalities could become the People of God by observing the major points, justice, mercy and loyalty to God according to the situation. In doing so, believers could be IN Christ, resulting in being blessings to the world.

    Wrong. The text says the Gentiles succeeded in where Israel failed.

    Romans 9:30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

    Israel tried to prove that the promise to Abraham, the privilege of being saviours, would be given to those who are circumcised, Jews. Gentiles had no promise, they only depended on God to bless them if they served Him, were loyal, faithful. Under the Old Covenant, Israel failed, whilst Gentiles were not eligible.

    Under the New Covenant, the Gentile way was the right way, while Israel’s way (insisting they were the seeds, instead of being loyal to God) was transgression, which made Gentiles eligible.

    Romans 9: 33As it is written:

    “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
    and a rock that makes them fall,
    and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”m

    Romans 10:3For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

    Romans 11:11I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
    Elijah asked God to destroy Israel. But He chose some righteous Israelites, those who observed both minor as well as important parts of the Law, set them aside, exiled them to a foreign land, where they lived as Gentiles among Gentiles, not as God’s People. God did not destroy Israel like He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

    All Israel had the possibility of possessing the Kingdom taken away because they did not produce fruit, followers of God. Instead they produced thorns, devils greater than themselves, serving in a den of thieves. See above.

    To receive the physical in the world to come, you must have the important part, the spiritual, now, treasure which does not perish, which is currency in the next world.
    No nation is disqualified for not being clean, a Jew. The need to be a Jew has been removed. Good thing, because all Israel is living as Gentiles amongst Gentiles, is left desolate, without the Covenant and the Temple. There might have been a few people of Jewish origin compliant, still Jews, in Jesus’ time, but not now, after the Old Covenant was packed away and the Temple destroyed, The House of Israel is now inhabited by Gentiles.
    In the sense of observing the minor as well as the important parts of the Law, true, but not in the sense of observing it perfectly. All failed, died, when they heard the Law, except Christ. Israel was Ishmael, a stopgap to comfort and protect Abraham, but could not give life. Christ is Isaac, the seed through promise, the Son who saved the world, completed it, gave it life.
    Nations are being discussed since Esau never served Jacob, but Edom did serve Israel. Hate is a hebraism for loved less, as when God saw Leah was loved less, He opened her womb. Jacob never hated Leah, he just loved her less. God never hates individuals when it comes to being fair in offering salvation: He loves the whole world. God loved Israel less than Christ, so He chose Israel to be the vessel of dishonor, the means by which, through transgression, Gentiles would be saved. No one is trapped in Israel. Many in fact came out of her and joined the people who were not God’s People, in order to be saved.
    You claimed that we sinned IN Adam just as Levi paid a tithe IN Abraham to Melchizedech. But the text says “because of which all have sinned” not “in whom all have sinned”.

    Adam died as soon as he disobeyed. Ergo, the text is talking about spiritual death, being out of union with God, union which Christ restored.
    But you said Christ death resulted in resurrection for all men, implying that before the Cross, all men, sinners and non sinners, did not have resurrection.

    Then what different type of resurrection of men did the obedience of Christ achieve?
    So no one needs to become a Jew to be a member of God’s people. Good thing, since there is no way to become a Jew after the Cross. The Mosaic Covenant has been closed.

    I stated that the real can be sensed, seen and heard. You said God is invisible, yet is real, implying He can’t be seen or heard and is yet real. I said “Not true, God can be seen, so He is real”. So your statement that God is invisible and yet real is not true. The text says only the pure can see God. Find another example to prove the unreal can be seen or heard.
    A mistake still is non sensical. You are trying to imply a mistake which is not articulated is not non sensical.

    Fact: Mr Jones appears.
    Fact: I think it’s Mr Smith.
    Fact: My thought isn’t true, it makes no sense, is non sensical.

    Hinduism accepts Christianity believes it is the truth. It also accepts all the other religions.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
  4. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    God is very merciful, but not in cases where someone is able to do good works but refuses to, because of unrepentant laziness and wickedness (Matthew 25:26,30).

    For example, John 15:2a refers to Christians, who are branches in the vine of Jesus Christ, wrongly employing their free will in such a way that they fail to produce good fruit, so that ultimately they are taken away from Jesus (John 15:2a), cut off from Him for their unrepentant laziness, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

    Christians can also be ultimately cut off from Jesus Christ, cast away, and burned; they can ultimately lose their salvation, for not continuing to abide in Jesus (John 15:6), in the sense of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:12b), or unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

    Jesus Christ gives each Christian his or her own spiritual work to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8; 1 Corinthians 12:28-30; 1 Corinthians 12:8-10). And He gives different Christians different amounts of spiritual talents (Matthew 25:15). So it is not possible for all Christians to do the same spiritual work for Jesus, or to accomplish the same amount for Him. And so any one Christian should not (as sometimes happens) judge any other Christian for not doing the same spiritual work that he or she is doing, or for not accomplishing as much as he or she is accomplishing (Romans 14:4). Nor should any Christian think that the spiritual work which Jesus has given him or her is unnecessary and not a real part of the operation of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:14-30). But there is still no room for complacency, because for those Christians who have been given much spiritual talent by God, much will be required of them by God (Luke 12:48b). And for those Christians who have not been given as much spiritual talent by God, they are still expected to accomplish something for Him (Galatians 6:4-5), and not just to sit back and do nothing at all for Him (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

    They could become Jews (Numbers 9:14).

    Only Christians are clean (1 Corinthians 6:11), coming from every nationality (Revelation 5:9), including Israel (Romans 11:1-7).

    Of course (Acts 13:39).

    Are you thinking of Galatians 4:7 and Romans 4:4?

    If so, Galatians 4:7 means that Christians are not only God's servants, but are His children. For Christians are God's servants (Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1; 2 Timothy 2:24). People can be both someone's child and his servant at the same time (Malachi 3:17, Exodus 4:23). The book of Revelation is given to the Church (Revelation 22:16), God's servants (Revelation 22:6, Revelation 1:1), who will forever serve God (Revelation 22:3), with His name written on their foreheads (Revelation 22:4, Revelation 3:12-13).

    Also, Romans 4:4 does not apply to the ultimate salvation of those who are already Christians, for a master does not go into debt to his servant (Luke 17:10).

    For Christians do not become the employees of Jesus Christ, but must become His willing servants/slaves (doulos: G1401) (Revelation 1:1), forsaking everything that they have (Luke 14:33).

    Even under the New Covenant, people have to be doers of God's will if they want to obtain ultimate salvation (Matthew 7:21).

    They could (Exodus 12:48).

    Romans 9:30-32 means that by the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, no one will be justified (Acts 13:39). Romans 9:30-32 is not contradicting that the people of Israel are also saved by grace (Romans 11:1-7).

    No, only the way of the Jew Jesus Christ is the right way (John 14:6).

    Not Christian Israel (Hebrews 12:28).

    He did, de jure, as soon as he sold his birthright (Hebrews 12:16).

    Not in Malachi 1:3, where being hated results in being destroyed by God, as in Romans 9:22.

    Are you thinking of John 3:16?

    If so, note that John 3:16 does not mean that God loves everyone in the world, for He hates nonelect people (Romans 9:11-22).

    What John 3:16 says does not require that God loves everyone in the world, just as, for example, saying that a person loves TV does not require that that person loves every show on TV.

    In the Bible, "the world" does not have to mean everyone in the world. Just as "the world" in John 15:18 and John 16:8-9,20 does not include Christians, so "the world" in John 3:16 does not include nonelect people (Romans 9:11-22). And in the case of, for example, John 18:20, it does not include the vast majority of the earth's inhabitants at that time, who did not hear Jesus Christ speak to them during His preaching before His arrest.

    We have to become grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17), the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:24), in order to be saved by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

    That's right (Romans 5:19a), just as we die in Adam (1 Corinthians 15:22).

    The text says:

    Romans 5:19 . . . by one man's disobedience many were made sinners . . .

    All men will be resurrected in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:22), but the lost will be resurrected unto damnation (John 5:29), foretold even before Christ (Isaiah 66:24).

    Christians become spiritually-circumcised Jews when they undergo the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    The real can also be invisible (1 Timothy 1:17).

    A dream.

    Not if it is a reasonable mistake.

    For example, in the dim light of a restaurant, you could mistakenly give the waiter a tip of $1 instead of $10, because you thought that the one was a ten.

    It makes sense if they look alike, even though it's mistaken.

    No, it doesn't. For Hindu doctrine contradicts Christian doctrine.

    Christianity rejects all the other religions as cursed (Galatians 1:8-9).
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  5. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    Judaism believes, based on God not judging those under 20 in the Exodus account, that a person who is not an adult cannot be held responsible, because their ability to know good from evil is not fully developed. That's why the parents shift responsibility back to the son here:

    John 9:20“We know he is our son,” the parents answered, “and we know he was born blind. 21But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don’t know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself.” 22His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue. 23That was why his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”

    Today scientists confirm that the part of the brain responsible for moral decisions isn't fully developed until a person reaches adulthood.

    So you think God doesn't know the state of His own creature's brain?
    Your post is a sly attempt at misdirection. I did not ask how Gentiles could become a member of God's People, Jews, in my post:

    In the Old Covenant, only Israel was clean, was eligible to be the People of God, Gentiles were unclean. In the new covenant, who are clean, eligible to be the people of God?

    You are perfectly aware the answer to my actual question is that all nations are eligible. If all nations are clean, eligible, then no special nation, Israel , a people chosen because they are clean, exist. All are Israel.

    This is not your first attempt at misdirection and if you continue, it means you are only interested in winning, not in teaching the truth. Another minus point for your credibility.

    There is no group or nation called Christian which is a candidate to become a member of God’s People. Christ is God. His People are God's People, Christian. The question was which nations, Jewish or Gentile, is now considered clean, is Israel, is eligible to become a member of God's People, in the case of the New Covenant.
    Acts 13:38“Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses. 40“Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:


    42As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath. 43Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.

    Acts 13:39 says those who are baptised into Christ, became Christians, can be freed from everything that they couldn't be freed from when they were baptized into Moses, became Jews. It doesn't say old covenant Jews need to become new covenant Jews. It says people who were in the synagogue, of Jewish and Gentile origin, had to be in the Church, become Christians, to be completely freed of their sins.

    In other words, the choices are : remain Jews to be freed from some sins and escape wrath but die, not have eternal life, become blessings to the world, live as Gentiles amongst Gentiles or become Christians to be freed from all sins and become blessings to the world. The choices again, live as Gentiles amongst Gentiles, or become Christian, baptism into Moses, or into Christ:

    1 Corinthians 10:2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

    Galatians 3:27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

    Employees chosen by being suitable received wages only when they do all their work. Family receive love and gifts as long as they are recognisable as family.
    Wrong, they just have to have identified themselves as God’s sheep and stay identifiable. Sometimes the first act is the only act they can do and it's enough. Like the thief on the cross.

    Wrong. They had to be circumcised, become part of Israel, become clean, and then be baptised into Moses. God's People were Jews. Now they are Christians.

    The Old Covenant
    Israel failed to become blessings to the world because they were not faithful, loyal to God. They only observed the minor parts of the law. They tried to force God to fulfill His unconditional promise to make Abraham's seed a blessing to the world. Unfortunately, Abraham's seed was identified by faith, loyalty, not circumcision. And it was not many seeds, but a single seed.

    Gentiles did not become blessings to the world because they were not given hope, were not having a promise, a covenant.

    The New Covenant
    Israel failed to become blessings to the world because they were not faithful, loyal to God. They still taught that candidates became eligible for membership in the People of God, clean, by becoming members of Israel, by observing minor parts of the law, the requirement of the Old Covenant, even when God had declared all nations clean, had closed the Old Covenant. They were seeking to maintain a righteousness of Israel, Judaism, rather than the righteousness of God, Christianity. Israel wanted to stay in Moses, rather than move into Christ, the real destination, the real Rest. They wanted to stay Jews, rather than be Christians. Finally, those who wanted Jews to be the Rest were cut off. If there hadn't been some who also observed the more important parts of the law, justice, mercy and loyalty to God, Israel would have been removed from the face of the earth, like Sodom and Gomorrah. The requirements of the Old Covenant still protected, was still a guardian.

    Gentiles became blessings to the world because they were not given hope, were not having a promise that they could be the seed of Abraham, the appearance of the true seed did not cause them to stumble, to transgress. They were not seeking a promise given to Gentiles, a righteousness of their own, but were seeking a righteousness of God, by being loyal. They had always done this, but did not have a covenant which promised a gift, until the New Covenant was given to them because Israel transgressed, by not believing the seed was Christ. Since entry into Christ was by faithfulness, loyalty, not by being an Israelite, observing the minor points of the law, they now could have the Covenant which those baptised into Christ had.

    The way of Judaism is by minor points of the law. The way of Christianity is by faith, loyalty.

    The choice is to be baptised into Moses or into Christ.

    No such thing. See above.

    Service is visible, is either lip service or deeds. Esau did neither. In fact, Jacob was always in submission, was a servant, to Esau, even after Esau sold his birthright, but did not hand it over, to Jacob:

    Genesis 32: 3Then Jacob sent messengers before him to his brother Esau in the land of Seir, the country of Edom. 4He also commanded them saying, “Thus you shall say to my lord Esau: ‘Thus says your servant Jacob, “I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed until now; 5I have oxen and donkeys and flocks and male and female servants; and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find favor in your sight.”’”

    I don't care what it says in Malachi. In Romans 9:22 which is linked to Rebecca, God didn't hate Jacob, who became Israel, who became Ishmael, through the Sinaitic Covenant, Hagar, destined to be a vessel of dishonor because it had minor points of the law, which could be mistaken for identification marks of Abraham's seed, until the true seed caused Israel to stumble, because He had more identification marks.

    It's very clear that John 3:16 announces God’s intention to remove Israel's special status as His People.

    The House of Israel, which the Covenant is made with, became non Jewish, Gentiles. They worshipped on altars set up in high places, like other pagan nations.

    Deuteronomy 12:5 But you shall seek the place that the LORD your God will choose out of all your tribes to put his name and make his habitation there. There you shall go, 6 and there you shall bring your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the contribution that you present, your vow offerings, your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herd and of your flock.

    John 4:20“Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

    The death is spiritual, because Adam didn't die physically immediately after gaining knowledge of good and evil, but he did get separated from God, humanity lost union with God, which Christ restored.

    But the doctrine of Original Sin depends on Romans 5:12, recorded historically as Augustine's reasoning, not on what you say.

    But what about those who do not belong to Christ, like Joshua, Caleb, Rehab, etc. who were baptized into Moses?

    1 Corinthians 15:22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

    But Judas, Simon the Sorcerer, Ananias and Sapphira were baptised. Yet they were not clean, considered God's People. Water baptism can't be spiritual circumcision.

    It also has to be see-able.

    Hebrews 12:14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

    Dreams can't be seen. They can only be dreamt.

    That thought isn't true. Therefore, it's nonsensical.

    That impression isn't a true impression. Therefore, it's nonsensical.
    Hindu doctrine accepts Christian doctrine.

    That doctrine is also accepted by Hindus. They believe everyone has a right to believe whatever they want. The danger of Hinduism is that it doesn't fight, it destroys by absorbing and diluting.
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  6. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    He does. For He knows when to eternally condemn a Christian for unrepentant laziness and wickedness (Matthew 25:26,30).

    The talents parable (Matthew 25:14-30) is about the judgment of Christians (of all times) by their individual works, at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 25:19-30, Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48), which Jesus had just finished saying will not occur until "immediately after" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So Matthew 25:21,23 refers to obedient Christians entering the joy of ruling on the earth with the Lord Jesus during the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), which will not begin until after the Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

    But Matthew 25:30 refers to disobedient Christians losing their salvation at Jesus' Second Coming (Matthew 24:48-51, Luke 12:45-46), and them entering "the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 1:13), "to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever" (2 Peter 2:17), which could be a fate of them having to drift through, or stay in some place, in the darkness of outer space.

    Only Christians are clean (1 Corinthians 6:11), but they indeed come from all nations (Revelation 5:9), including Israel (Romans 11:1-5).

    But under the New Covenant, all nations are not Israel, for not even all Jews are Israel (Romans 9:6).

    The group of Christ's followers are called Christian (Acts 11:26c), and a nation (1 Peter 2:9).


    Jesus Christ is God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28, Titus 2:13, Philippians 2:6, Matthew 1:23). And He is uncreated God, just as God the Father is uncreated God. For everything created was created by Jesus (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17). Because Jesus is uncreated, there was never a time when He was not. He has always existed. He is YHWH the Holy One, from everlasting (Habakkuk 1:12a, Acts 3:14, Micah 5:2c). He is YHWH the only Savior (Isaiah 43:11, Titus 2:13), YHWH the good shepherd (Psalms 23:1, John 10:11, Mark 10:18), YHWH who will set His feet on the Mount of Olives at His return (Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12), YHWH the first and last (Isaiah 44:6, Revelation 2:8), YHWH the great I AM (Exodus 3:14, John 8:58), the great God (Titus 2:13), the mighty God (Isaiah 9:6), one God with God the Father (John 10:30, John 20:28), equal in divinity with God the Father (Philippians 2:6).

    Just as the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19) is the three distinct, coexisting Persons (Mark 1:9-11) of God the Father (Galatians 1:3), God the Son (Hebrews 1:8), and God the Holy Spirit (cf. Mark 13:11 and Matthew 10:19-20; Acts 5:3-4), so the Trinity is YHWH the Father, YHWH the Son, and YHWH the Holy Spirit. For YHWH is the only God (Isaiah 45:5-6). He has always been and forever will be the only God (Isaiah 43:10b).

    But that is what it means. For Christ's New Covenant is the only way for them to be justified (Matthew 26:28).

    And when Jews become Christians they remain Jews (Acts 22:3).

    Note that being children of God does not (as is sometimes claimed) mean once-saved-always-saved.

    For whereas Christians are indeed the children of God (Galatians 4:6-7, Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1, John 1:12), they can still ultimately lose their salvation (Matthew 8:11-12), such as by refusing to repent from a sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46). For under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, a father was commanded to have even his own son stoned to death, if his son refused to repent (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). And under the New Covenant, God will ultimately punish unrepentant sinners even more sorely than He did under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Hebrews 10:26-29).

    Note that he could have done many works before the cross, but then backslid and committed theft.

    Not all of Israel. For who do you think started the Church, if not Jews?

    Someone can be both (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    Note that the New Covenant is given only to Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

    So Christian Gentiles are grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

    Similarly, Ephesians 2:12,19 is addressing Christians who are genetic Gentiles rather than genetic Jews (Romans 11:1).

    And Ephesians 2:12,19 means that Christian Gentiles are not strangers to Israel, but are fellowcitizens in Israel along with Jewish Christians. Read also what Ephesians 3:6 says.

    Also, all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire Church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the Church (Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the Church, are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7-8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus Christ is (Galatians 3:16,29). So both Jewish and Gentile Christians are heirs of all of the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

    He legally became ruled by Jacob when he sold his birthright to him.

    Note that Christians must care about every word of the Bible (Matthew 4:4).

    He hated Esau unto destruction (Malachi 1:3), just as He hates all nonelect individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-22), unto destruction (Romans 9:22).

    Not at all (Romans 9:4-5).

    It remained the house of Israel (Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24, Acts 2:36), and Jewish (John 4:22, Romans 1:16).

    It is physical, just as the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:22 is physical (1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

    No, it comes from Romans 5:19a, Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10.

    All obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the Church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24). For now there are no believers outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus Christ into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the Gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all of the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

    And 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' Second Coming, the souls of all obedient dead Christians of all times will be brought down from the third heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15). And their souls will descend to the earth, and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all Christians who will survive the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth, those who will still be "alive and remain", will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a). And then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be in the clouds above Jerusalem, before He descends to set His feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

    It is because of this Second-Coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus Christ will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the Church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the Church will already be with Jesus when He subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4). Jesus and the obedient part of the Church will then physically reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

    It can, for salvation can be lost (2 Peter 2:20-22).

    It doesn't (1 John 4:12).

    They are seen. Otherwise, one could have no remembrance of what one saw in a dream (Genesis 41:22).

    Something can be untrue, in the sense of mistaken, without being nonsensical.

    For example, a man walking along a dark highway could mistake a bush for a bear, because the bush is the same size and shape of a bear.

    And it is not nonsensical, but even good evolutionary instinct, to always be on the lookout for possible danger, even if turns out that no real danger is there.

    No, it does not. It worships pagan gods instead of YHWH (Isaiah 44:6).
  7. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    He condemns the wicked and lazy Christian, not the babies and the insane and the paraplegics, and all those who are His children and stay recognisable as His children by belief and/or deeds .
    The category which was kept outside by the wall of the inner court of the Temple were the Gentile nationalities, those who were uncircumcised. Only the circumcised, the people of Israel , were eligible for entry in the Old Covenant.

    In the new covenant, no nationality, identified by being uncircumcised, was kept outside of membership in God’s People. All were citizens of Israel, the death of Christ having abolished the Old Covenant:

    Ephesians 2:11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)—12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
    The question was “Which nationality is now eligible for membership in the people of God?”. The answer is that all nations are Israel, are eligible for membership. When they are admitted, they are then called Christian, because they are baptised into Christ, not Moses. The children of God were always identified by faith, and that's all the Gentiles had, they didn't have circumcision, so the word of God has not failed, when the promise reached Gentiles.
    That’s why the new Covenant is superior, because we are abiding in the righteousness of God, by loyalty, not the righteousness of Moses, by keeping minor and important parts of the laws (like Elizabeth and Zacharias), which could only act like a guardian, protect, but not cleanse from all sins.
    Only if they are baptised into Moses, the righteousness of their own, Judaism, obtained by men, like Ishmael, to receive wages, through slavery, through Hagar, Sinai, but they are not. However, if they are baptised into Christ, the righteousness of God, Christianity, through a gift from God, like Isaac, to receive gifts, by sonship, by Sarah, Jerusalem our mother, they become Christians.
    That’s why I said believers must stay recognisable as family:

    Matthew 18:32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’

    James 2: 1My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. 2For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, 3and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, “You sit here in a good place,” and you say to the poor man, “You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool,” 4have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives? 5Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?6But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court? 7Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called?

    8If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well. 9But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

    14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
    No, he repented and believed and responded as a family member of God. What limits a person who is faithful, but cannot show his loyalty, is the situation. God knows the limitation and does not hold it against the believer. We have liberty to manifest faith in different ways in the New Covenant, the law of liberty and love, but not in the Old.
    Those who started the Church left Israel, so they are not Israel.
    If you leave Israel, you are not a Jew. You are only of Jewish origin.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  8. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah.

    33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: 34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.

    The House of Israel was not Jewish, they had their own temples in high places and worshipped Baal. They were Gentiles.

    1 Kings 12:26Jeroboam said in his heart, “Now the kingdom will return to the house of David. 27“If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will return to their lord, even to Rehoboam king of Judah; and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah.” 28So the king consulted, and made two golden calves, and he said to them, “It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem; behold your gods, O Israel, that brought you up from the land of Egypt.” 29He set one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan. 30Now this thing became a sin, for the people went to worship before the one as far as Dan. 31And he made houses on high places, and made priests from among all the people who were not of the sons of Levi.32Jeroboam instituted a feast in the eighth month on the fifteenth day of the month, like the feast which is in Judah, and he went up to the altar; thus he did in Bethel, sacrificing to the calves which he had made. And he stationed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made. 33Then he went up to the altar which he had made in Bethel on the fifteenth day in the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised in his own heart; and he instituted a feast for the sons of Israel and went up to the altar to burn incense.
    The text says the older will serve the younger. Esau never served Jacob. Jacob, however. did serve Esau:

    Genesis 32: 3Then Jacob sent messengers before him to his brother Esau in the land of Seir, the country of Edom. 4He also commanded them saying, “Thus you shall say to my lord Esau: ‘Thus says your servant Jacob, “I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed until now; 5I have oxen and donkeys and flocks and male and female servants; and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find favor in your sight.”

    So the text is dealing with nations, not individuals.

    Romans 9:12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

    The nation of Israel, false Israel, was made into a vessel of dishonor, God set her up for transgression. God loved the Gentiles, true Israel, identified by faith, like Jacob loved Rachel: a little more.
    I don’t care to judge it because it is God who judges people who twist Scripture:

    Matthew 12:36"But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.

    1 Corinthians 3:16Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.
    God hated Esau, who is the nation of Israel in Romans 9.

    Romans 9:10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

    The twins are the sheep of the Jewish Nation, and the sheep of Another Flock, Gentile Nations. Both are unrighteous, there is not one righteous nation, not even one. But even before they had done anything good or bad, had any works on their record, God chose the lump which was the sheep of his flock, and made them a vessel of dishonor, set them up to transgress by seeking the righteousness of Judaism, rather than the righteousness of God, Christianity.

    It’s very clear that Paul is linking Esau to Israel in Romans 9, which starts of like this:

    Romans 9:1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

    6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descendedfrom Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOURDESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

    Israel is set up to fail by trangressing, not believing that God gave the privilege of being a blessing to the world to Christ, not to Jews, to “A” seed, not “Many” seeds.

    But God’s word did not fail regarding Israel, because the promise to the true Israel has reached its intended recipient. as the true Israel, is identified by loyalty, not circumcision. The children of Abraham are identified through the New Covenant, the result of a promise, gifted by God, like Isaac, not through the Old Covenant, the result of human effort, worked for by Moses, like Ishmael.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  9. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie


    Well if the condition for salvation is loyalty and not circumcision, then Israel is no longer special:

    John 3:16“For God so loved the world (all, not just Israel), that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him (belief, not performing works, being circumcised) shall not perish, but have eternal life.

    Oikou israel can also be translated as the nation of Israel in the New Testament which was Jewish. In other words, Jesus said He was sent to the Jewish nation. But He ministered to the House of Israel too, the Samaritans.
    First spiritual, then physical. Separation from God, which resulted in separation from the Tree of Life. Clearly indicated in the text.
    Augustine left evidence. Unless he came back from the dead, and changed what he wrote, it’s still here.

    I think the whole translation issue is totally blown out of proportion here. Even if the text does not say “in Adam all sinned”, there is a precedent for such an interpretation set elsewhere. For example, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says “in Adam all die,” etc. St. Augustine is not to take the blame here, as he is following Ambrosiaster’s Commentary on Romans 5:12. The “in Adam” terminology is used elsewhere, and Augustine could reasonably have assumed that the text was correctly translated here. It is highly unlikely that Augustine had his own personal Greek Bible handy, so we can’t expect him to verify every Latin verse by checking with the Greek version. Moreover, the doctrine of “inherited guilt” was not based on this single verse alone. There were other writers prior to Augustine that had similar views on “original sin”, and there were many philosophical arguments; e.g. infants are baptized even though they have not sinned, which means that they are baptized in order to wash away Adam’s sin (Cyprian); death is a punishment for sin and even infants die, therefore infants must be guilty of sin (Origen?). The doctrine of inherited guilt didn’t start with Augustine, and it would have become just as widespread even without the Latin mistranslation. The concept of inherited guilt is a moot point anyways, as even the Roman Catholic Church rejects it now (of course, they ought to reexamine their doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, because it doesn’t make sense without inherited guilt). Practically no one believes in inherited guilt anymore.
    Moreover, this is a minor issue in the grand scheme of things. Augustine’s theology has caused schism after schism, and the idea of “inherited guilt” has never been the central issue. For example, the East-West Schism was over the issue of whether God is “absolutely simple” and his essence is identical to his energies (as Augustine says) or whether his energies and his essence are distinct (as the vast majority of the Eastern Church Fathers taught). Another issue in the East-West Schism was over the “filioque”, another Augustinian doctrine. During the Reformation, you had Cornelius Jansen and John Calvin, among others, who held to the hyper-Augustinian position that God predetermines everything. This led to further schisms. The Reformed Protestants broke up into Arminians and Calvinists, and the Lutheran’s thought that Calvinists went too far. Augustine’s teachings caused all kinds of schisms, but I don’t see anywhere that the idea of “inherited guilt” was an important factor in regards to schisms. If you really want to criticize Augustine, you ought to be looking at “absolute simplicity,” the “filioque,” and the things that logically follow, e.g. Calvinistic-style determinism, Sabellianism, etc. It is not the mistranslation that needs to be criticized, but Augustine’s entire humanistic approach to theology.
    http://www.distributarian.com/pdf Documents/Augustinianism & Postmodernism.pdf
    Reply ↓

    [​IMG]Peter Kirk on November 26, 2012 at 10:15 pm said:
    W.J., thank you for those interesting observations. I quite agree that there are many other teachings of Augustine which have serious schisms. I doubt if any of them are completely novel to him, but he is the one who put them all together into a coherent but troublesome whole.
    I would agree with the latter part of “It is not the mistranslation that needs to be criticized, but Augustine’s entire humanistic approach to theology”, but as a former Bible translator I am also concerned about the mistranslation, and its effect in at least helping to support and encourage Augustine’s misguided theology.
    I am surprised by your claim that “Practically no one believes in inherited guilt anymore.” From my experience and reading this is the general understanding among so-called Reformed Calvinists, the circles which Scot McKnight was addressing in the post I quoted at the start of my post. For example, in my post The root of John Piper’s wrong theology I quoted Piper as writing
    Adam acted sinfully, and because we were connected to him, we were condemned in him.
    Here is one of today’s most influential Christian teachers explicitly teaching original guilt, just like Augustine taught it. Piper may not explicitly link this to inheritance in the way that some have done in the past. But the core of this false doctrine, that people are born guilty because of Adam’s sin, is by no means dead and buried.
    Reply ↓

    Augustine's mistake about original sin - Gentle Wisdom

    The Genesis of St. Augustine's Idea of Original Sin on JSTOR
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  10. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    Okay, I thought you claimed that the death and resurrection of Christ resulted only in the resurrection of New Covenant believers. Let me check your old posts, but the topic of this thread is “What is the Gospel?”, so, the answer to that is that "It is the fulfilment of the promise to Abraham that all nations would be blessed through him (which could not be so fulfilled because of the Mosaic Covenant which depended on works which led to death, not blessings) is now available because the Cross abolished that Covenant, the bondswoman and her child were sent off", this side issue isn’t so important.
    But you said true Israel is identified by spiritual circumcision, circumcision of the heart. If you continue with that analogy, true Christians aren’t identified by physical water baptism, but by baptism of the heart, agreement with the words spoken by Christ:

    John15:2"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

    John 13:10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathedneeds only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean. And you are clean, though notall of you.” 11For He knew who would betray Him. That is why He said, “Not all of you are clean.”
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  11. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    So Hebrews 12:14 is wrong?

    The definition of sight is what is seen with the eyes.
    So the man runs away everytime? NO! When he realises something doesn't make sense, is non sensical, he corrects himself.
    Hinduism accepts 33 million gods. You think one more fazes them?
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  12. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    That's right (Matthew 25:26,30), because works are required for ultimate salvation (Matthew 7:21).

    Nonelect Jews are not Israel (Romans 9:6). And only Christian Gentiles become citizens of Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19).

    But ultimately, righteousness also requires works (1 John 3:7).

    No, they remained Israel (Romans 11:1-5), and Jews (Acts 22:3).


    It was, and still is (Acts 2:36, Acts 2:5).

    He did, de jure, as soon as he sold his birthright to Jacob.

    Israel wasn't (Romans 9:4-5).

    That is contradictory, for in Romans 9:13 it is "Jacob" that means "Israel" (Genesis 35:10, Romans 11:26, Isaiah 48:1, Isaiah 41:8).


    It is still special (Romans 9:4-5).

    No, the Samaritans were not Israel (Matthew 10:5-6).

    If the person you quoted means the doctrine of original sin, note that it is from the Bible (Romans 5:19a, Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10).


    But because of free will, you can become unclean again, to the ultimate loss of your salvation (2 Peter. 2:20-22).


    That refers to the Lord Jesus, not to God the Father (1 John 4:12).

    Or with the mind (Genesis 31:10).

    No, but he is wary every time. For it is not nonsensical to be wary of things that could be there.

    No, because it does not believe in YHWH the only God (Isaiah 44:6), just as it does not believe in His Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    Instead, Hinduism is a Satanic, pagan religion which is doubly cursed along with all other non-Christian religions (Galatians 1:8-9).
  13. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie


    This is the full post, so please my posts in their entirety without change, as I’ve already requested, else you will continue to lose credibility:

    He condemns the wicked and lazy Christian, not the babies and the insane and the paraplegics, and all those who are His children and stay recognisable as His children by belief and/or deeds.

    As you can see, I have stated that those who cannot do works are not condemned.

    The text says Abraham’s seed is identified by faith, therefore those who served God rather than to themselves are Abraham’s seed.

    Then it says God’s word did not fail, His promise to Abraham did reach Abraham’s seed. Because Israel is not the true israel. The true Israel is identified by those who served God, which the Gentiles were doing, because they did not sin like Israel, serving themselves, seeking a righteousness of their own, saying their observance was righteous, but believed God, who said Christ was the righteousness of God.

    No the Law of Liberty and Love requires works only if it is possible, unlike the Old Covenant which requires perfect observance of all works, without exception.

    The disciples left the Old Covenant which is only given to Israel which said Gentiles are unclean and became Christians.

    Acts 10:9On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!” 14But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” 15Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.”

    John 4:20Our forefathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews say that the place where one must worship is in Jerusalem.”

    Then why did Jacob submit to Esau, de facto?

    Jeremiah 18:6"O house of Israel, can I not treat you as this potter treats his clay? declares the LORD. Just like clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.


    Micah 2:3Therefore thus says the LORD,

    “Behold, I am planning against this family a calamity
    From which you cannot remove your necks;
    And you will not walk haughtily,
    For it will be an evil time.
    4“On that day they will take up against you a taunt
    And utter a bitter lamentation and say,
    ‘We are completely destroyed!
    He exchanges the portion of my people;
    How He removes it from me!
    To the apostate He apportions our fields.’

    But in Romans 9. Israel and Esau are the ones who are loved less.

    Romans 9:1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.


    Romans 9:13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

    I mean special for the purpose of eligibility to become Christians. Whoever is faithful can now do that.

    Well the correct translation of Romans 5:12 contradicts your doctrine.

    But water baptism isn’t spiritual circumcision as you claimed.

    The Lord Jesus is God, and if you see Christ you have seen the Father.

    That is a metaphor. It just meant he dreamt a dream, not saw with his physical eyes. Else tell me which dream of yours you can see with the physical eyes.

    But they are not there, so it doesn’t make sense, is non sensical.

    That’s why I told you not to teach about the Hindu religion, and it’s non sensical claims. Of course, you have to know what is non sensical.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  14. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    Note that anyone who has faith can do good works, such as praying and giving of alms (Acts 10:4).

    Note that babies don't have faith.

    And if someone is too insane to do good works, then he is too insane to have faith.

    Also, paraplegics can do good works. For how many works require the use of one's legs? And how many of those works which do require the use of one's legs can't be done instead through the use of a wheelchair?

    That is, if paraplegics can even race each other and play basketball in wheelchairs, then how many works can't they do?

    Part of it is (Romans 11:1-5).

    Not all Gentiles (Romans 9:17-22).

    They became Christians under the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which is also only given to Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Christian Gentiles are grafted into Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19).

    Jacob acted like a servant before Esau only one time (Genesis 32:3-5), out of fear for his life (Genesis 27:42b).

    But when he realized that Esau no longer wanted to kill him (Genesis 33:4), he in no way served him, but even lied to him and completely avoided him (Genesis 33:14-20).

    No, Israel (Jacob) is loved, and Esau is hated (Romans 9:13) unto destruction (Malachi 1:3).

    That's right (Revelation 5:9). But Israel is still special even with regard to that (Romans 1:16).

    Note that Romans 5:12 does not contradict the Bible's doctrine of original sin in Romans 5:19a, Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3, and Romans 3:10.

    Note that water-immersion (burial) baptism is spiritual circumcision (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    In the sense of an image of God the Father (Colossians 1:15), not God the Father Himself (1 John 4:12).

    Saw with his mental eyes.

    Also, what kind of eyes do you think are referred to in Luke 16:23?

    Note that even physical eyes themselves don't "see"; it takes the vision part of the brain to do that, which part is also activated in dreams.

    Only once it has been determined that they truly are not there.

    Its claims are not nonsensical, even though they are evil.

    That's why we have to be wary of them (cf. Matthew 24:4), as of all other evil (2 Corinthians 2:11).
  15. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    Praying is not a good work. If someone is in need and you tell him you’ll pray for him, then you are sinning like this :

    James 2:14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

    The point is that if you don’t have the means to help a person, then you don’t have to: that’s the law of liberty and love. In the Old Covenant, there are laws that require you to give even if you really cannot, like the tithe. In the New Covenant, if you have the ability to give and you don’t, its a sin, even if you have already tithed. Faith, loyalty, is the criterion, and loyalty is expressed in different ways in different situations. And nothing prevents you from giving more, out of love, in the New Covenant.

    So be frank: according to your doctrine, do babies go to hell? Are minors subject to law and judgment?

    See above.

    I meant quadriplegics.

    Those who are loyal to God are Israel. Abraham’s descendants are identified by faith. So if a Gentile is loyal to God, he is also part fo the true Israel.

    Romans 2:26So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

    Well Paul said the word of God didnt fail, the promise to Abraham did reach the real descendants of Abraham, and they were not the nation of Israel, but those who were identified by faith, those who did not seek a righteousness of Israel, Judaism, but of God, Christianity. It looks like the Jews didn’t respond to the invitation. Those who responded and came to the wedding feast were already not Jews, they had stopped obeying the false Israel, and were instead being loyal to God, observing justice,mercy and faithfulness, like Abraham the Gentile, like Elizabeth and Zacharias.

    Isaiah 51:1Listen to Me, you who pursue righteousness, you who seek the LORD: Look to the rock from which you were cut, and to the quarry from which you were hewn.

    Romans 1:17For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

    Romans 10:2,3For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. 3For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

    Romans 10:20And Isaiah boldly says: "I was found by those who did not seek Me; I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me."

    Christ died to make the Old Covenant obsolete, he drove out the bondswoman and her son, Judaism, the Sinaitic Code, to make way for the son of the promise, Christianity, the New Covenant. The inheritance reached the Body of Christ, Christians, the Church, the true Israel, identified by faith. Jews must leave the false Israel, which is identified by works of the Law, requirements of the Judaism, circumcision, etc. and become Christians to have Christ benefit them. If they continue being slaves, employees, works identified, Jews, Christ is of no benefit to them. The Body of Christ is composed of people of faith, of Gentile and Jewish origin.

    Servants fear their masters, lie, hide, so all of Jacob’s actions identify him as a servant to Esau.

    The whole of Romans 9 shows Israel was hated. So that makes her Esau. Besides God didn’t destroy Esau the man, but He did destroy Esau the nation.

    The Gospel was indeed preached first to those belonging to Judaism, but they refused to believe that the righteousness of God, Christianity, whose requirement is faith, was the seed, not Judaism, whose requirement is works of the law. Today there is no requirement to preach to the Jews in a group first, before you preach to the Gentiles in the same group/audience. So no, Jews don’t have any special privilege anymore. They are in fact in unbelief, transgression, not observant of both Covenants, unclean, cut off, which made way for Gentiles.

    Apart from the mistake made by those who believe in the doctrine of Original SIn, based on a wrong translation of Romans 5:12, the doctine also doesn’t coincide with the Old Testament statement that a child does not carry its father’s sin (Ezekiel 18:19–20).

    Note that water baptism was undertaken by those who were interested in acquiring the power of the Holy Spirit, like Judas and Simon the Sorcerer and Ananias and Sapphira, but were not interested in agreeing with the words God spoke to them. The verses you quoted have nothing to link them with water baptism. Shame on you.

    John 13:10Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” 11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

    John 15:3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you

    So Christ is not God?

    These are figurative, not literal:

    Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, BOWELS of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering. ( Colossians 3:12 )

    So show me a dream.

    Proving the first impression was non sensical.

    If you study Hindusim, you will be confused. Don’t waste time even in trying to understand or reason with followers of Hinduism. The only way to share Christianity with Hindus is by following Schaeffer’s Presuppositionalist method.
  16. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    It is (Colossians 4:12).

    You can always help them by praying for them (Ephesians 6:18).

    Christians must forsake everything that they have (Luke 14:33).

    Some people get their babies baptized to avoid that.

    But unless God wants to make an exception for an elect individual (Exodus 33:19b, Romans 9:15), infant baptism is not valid, because baptism is useless for salvation, and is not even allowed, unless the one being baptized is already a believer with all of his heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Acts 8:36-38, Mark 16:16). Also, Christians need to be not just sprinkled with water, as is often done with infant baptism, but water-immersion (burial) baptized (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12), in order to be ultimately saved from hell (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

    Ever heard of Juvenile Hall?

    They can do good works too, such as praying, preaching, giving of alms, etc.

    Indeed, everybody with faith has to do good works, ultimately (James 2:24).

    They include part of Israel (Romans 11:1-5).

    Some of them did (Acts 22:3), and still do (e.g. "Jews for Jesus").

    For the Church was started by Jews and includes both Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    Christianity is New Covenant Judaism, for the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Christ Himself is a Jew (John 4:9). And He said that salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22).

    Christian Gentiles are grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24), and become spiritually-circumcised Jews through water-immersion (burial) baptism (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    Christians must continue to be the willing servants/slaves (doulos: G1401) of Christ (Revelation 1:1).

    And they must be works identified (Matthew 7:21).

    Christ is of no benefit to them only if they think that they have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:4).

    No, just someone who feared him at one point, and wanted nothing to do with him afterward.

    For Jacob had de jure rule over Esau (Romans 9:12) as soon as he bought Esau's birthright (Genesis 25:33).

    Loved (Romans 9:13). For "Jacob" is "Israel" (Romans 11:26, Jeremiah 46:27), the very seed of Abraham (Isaiah 41:8).

    The doctrine of original sin is taught by the Bible (Romans 5:19a, Psalms 51:5, Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10).

    Ezekiel 18:19–20 means that obedience by the son can save his life, just as it can for Christians who obey Christ (Hebrews 5:9).

    Note that the words God spoke include the necessity of water baptism for ultimate salvation (Mark 16:16).

    They do (Colossians 2:12).

    But you can become unclean again (2 Peter 2:20-22), even after being washed by water baptism (Acts 22:16).

    Christ is God (John 1:1,14) the Son (Hebrews 1:8), but not God the Father (John 14:28).

    No, they are literal, spiritual eyes, just as Luke 16:23 refers to a dead man's spirit being literally in the torments of hell.

    You never dream?

    No, just mistaken.

    The only way is to share Christianity with anyone (even nominal Christians) is to preach God's Word the Bible to them (Romans 10:17; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4).
  17. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    If you came to me for help and I said I’d pray for you, that’s not a good work. It’s like the shameless believer in James 2 who wishes the poor brother well. Do you have a problem with comprehension?

    See above.

    Christians should not get married and get distracted by the cares of the world, but very few are gifted with the gift of celibacy. That’s why they must be realistic and not make vows they cannot keep, must not promise to build a tower and not complete it. They have to know their limitations and ask for a lesser task, ask for terms of peace.

    Just answer the question: “Are unbaptised babies going to hell?”

    The fact that Juvenile Hall/Court exists means that minors are treated separately. The award is education, not punishment.

    Faith is correctly translated as loyalty. Loyalty can be expressed without works and that is sufficient for grace, God’s favour, which is sufficient to make you a blessing to the world.

    The Covenant of Works is given to Israel and Israel only. However, true Israel is identified by faith. Those who observe works of the Law are not true Israel, but Israel of the flesh. If a person does not perform works of the Law, is not special, clean, as specified by the Old Covenant, he is not Israel of the flesh. So the choice is to be either Israel of the flesh or true Israel. He cannot be both.

    So if a person seeks to be a member of the People of God by faith is he clean? If he is special, then he is clean. But the Old Covenant which describes who is clean is abolished. So the person who seeks to be part of God’s People is not special, does not need to be special, separate from the rest of the world. So he is not Israel of the flesh. God asked Peter to eat, telling him He had made everything clean. In other words, God told him Jews, people different from the rest of the world, had stopped existing.

    The text said no Jew came to the wedding feast. The King removed the requirement of being a Jew and invited non Jews to the feast.

    Matthew 22:1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2“The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3“And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4“Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ 5“But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business,6and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7“But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8“Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ 10“Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

    Judaism is a religion linked to a covenant of works given to a group separated from the rest of the world. Are you saying New Covenant Judaism is a religion linked to a covenant of faith given to a group that is not separated from the rest of the world? If so, that is the exact definition for Gentiles.

    The text says that the People of God are identified by faith. That demolishes your view.

    Galatians 3:6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

    Fear and avoidance are characteristics of servants. You can pay for something, but if you don’t take possession of it, you do not become what possessing it entitles you to become, even if it is the throne of a ruler purchased by a servant.

    The clay which did not conform to the potter’s hand is Israel.

    Jeremiah 18:4But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.5Then the word of the Lord came to me. 6He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel.

    Israel transgressed, tried to seek its own righteousness, Judaism, instead of the righteousnes of God, Christianity, and was made into a vessel of dishonor. It was dispersed, and were it not for the remnant, those who observed justice mercy and faithfulness, the nation of Israel would have been made extinct like the nation of Esau. Esau the man was never detroyed.

    Wrong. Ezekiel 18:19, 20 says that the father will be punished for his own sins, and the children will be punished for their own sins. Each will be responsible for their own sins, unlike the claim by the doctrine of Original Sin, and by you, who say that Adam’s sin is our sin. Again, I ask,”Do you have a problem with comprehension?”

    Ezekiel 18:19“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. 20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
    But the believers in Acts 19 were already baptised in water. If Paul wanted to baptise them again, water wasn’t the factor that made their baptism complete.

    Those who are baptised into Christ are baptised into His death, but that doesn’t mean that water is what baptises a person into Christ’s death, but faith, loyalty, like the thief on the cross.
    That's why you need to not avoid the gathering together of the saints and to wash each other’s feet. Christ said that His followers had to give up serving self and serve God to have a part of Him. Peter said he had stopped serving self, indicated by giving up all he possessed. Christ had to clear him of all the other attachments he had, ways of serving self, when He told him he had to even stop trying to preserve his own life.

    Matthew 16:21From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. 22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” 23But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”

    But Christ said whoever had seen Him had seen the Father. You say He was wrong?

    So mercy is found in the bowels?

    Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, BOWELS of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering. ( Colossians 3:12 )

    Yes I do, but I can’t show them to anyone.

    If mistaken makes sense, then there is no need to change the view, to look again.

    God’s word can be used only with those who accept it as truth. To the Gentiles, we must become as Gentiles, to the Jews, as Jews. Paul uses secular philosophy with the Greeks on Mars Hill.
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
  18. Matthew13:9

    Matthew13:9 Member

    The gospel is that the Spirit of God who is Jesus has come in the flesh being his Son and died for the sins of the world, was buried and rose again from the dead the third day: and is declared to be the son of God with Authority according to the holy spirit in:

    Psalm 2:7-12 King James Version (KJV)
    7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

    8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

    9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

    10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

    11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

    12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

    The day he was begotten and declared to be the son of God by the Holy Spirit is the day he was resurrected, as confirmed in the scripture below:

    Acts 13:33 King James Version (KJV)
    33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

    Born from the dead: along with all those who are baptized in his name, they are baptized into his death and raised with him: this is the new birth.
  19. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    This begs the question what is the purpose of the Gospel? Should it "fix" ones theology or should it be more focused on introducing someone to Jesus?
  20. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

    The writers of the Epistles all want their readers to receive the Kingdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 14:40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

    The writers of the Gospels all want their readers to know what the Kingdom of God look like.

    Luke 11:20"But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    Because only by having the Kingdom of God will you be able to convince the world to come out of Egypt.

    Exodus 4:1Then Moses said, “What if they will not believe me or listen to what I say? For they may say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’”

    Exodus 8:19Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

    Getting the world to come out of Egypt is how Abraham's seed is a blessing to the world.