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Featured What is the Gospel?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    No, Gentiles can also complain about things (e.g. Acts 6:1).

    Also, Romans 9:19-20 can apply to any man, whether Jew or Gentile, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-22). And the book of Romans was originally addressing Gentiles (Romans 11:13).

    But note that the complaint in Romans 9:19 does not have to be made only by nonelect people, but could also be made by elect people who hate the whole idea of double predestination, which is shown in Romans 9:11-24; just as even elect people could complain about the future, eternal torment of the nonelect (e.g. Revelation 14:10-11).

    But as mere humans, we must be careful not to condemn the way that God Himself has chosen to reveal all that He is (Romans 9:20-24): both a loving being (1 John 4:8, John 15:13, Matthew 26:28) and a vengeful being (Hebrews 12:29, Luke 12:49; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9). We must not say that it is evil for God not to elect and save everyone, and to send the nonelect and unsaved into eternal suffering (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11). For by saying this we would be making humans more important than God and His wishes. And this is something which Satan causes people to do, just as Jesus Christ at one point "said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" (Matthew 16:23).

    No matter how it may irk the Satanic pride of us humans, wanting to be important like God (Isaiah 14:12-14), so important that He would never even think of not saving all of us, and casting some of us into hell forever (Isaiah 14:15, Revelation 20:10,15), we must always remember that it is God's right to do with His creatures whatever He wants (Romans 9:21-23), and that even all of humanity together is infinitesimal and worth "less than nothing" compared with God (Isaiah 40:17-18, Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 2:22). We must resist our Satanic, human pride (which we can unconsciously disguise with good-sounding words about God's love for us), and completely humble ourselves before God (James 4:7-10; 1 Peter 5:6-8), pleading that He might have mercy on us sinners (Luke 18:13-14).

    Satan would love nothing more than to get us humans in our sinful pride to wrongly reject YHWH God of the Bible as evil, so that we will end up in the lake of fire and brimstone forever with Satan and his fallen angels (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:43-44). The future Antichrist, who will be empowered by Satan (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:4), will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And no doubt one of his chief blasphemies against YHWH will be that YHWH is an evil god. (This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh: 2 John 1:7.) During the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, the world will be deceived into rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") instead (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9).

    It is the ultimate proof of the humility of Christians (James 4:10, Acts 20:19a, Matthew 23:12) for them to accept the facts of double predestination (Romans 9:11-24) and an eternal hell (Matthew 25:41,46), without rejecting YHWH as being evil for these things. For it means that Christians have humbly accepted the fact that the wholly-good YHWH God (Deuteronomy 32:4; 1 John 1:5) is infinitely more important than even all of humanity together (Isaiah 40:17, Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 2:22).

    Hinduism, Buddhism, and Gnosticism mistakenly claim that, based on the original, mistaken Hindu idea of "maya".
     
  2. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    I asked you to show where gentiles complained about being hardened and cut off. You can't. You can only show where Israel complained about being cut off without reason. Israel, Judaism, was predestined to not recive mercy even before she had done good or bad, by giving her a biased, unfair, veiled Covenant which hid the fact that the seed was Christ, not Jews. In its existing form it could only be a babysitter, a guardian, until the New Covenant which could perfect, fulfil, came.

    You said "Maya" understood as "unreal" couldn't coexist with the concept of "Samskara". Which is it?
     
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that no one who is hardened, whether Jew or Gentile, would even believe that Romans 9:18b is a fact, instead of some Christian foolishness (1 Corinthians 2:14).

    And even if Romans 9:19b were the argumentative questions of a hardened individual, he could still be either a Jew or a Gentile, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-22).

    Also, note that Romans 9:19 is part of a letter which was originally addressed to Gentiles (Romans 11:13).

    Exactly the opposite. For "Jacob" in Romans 9:11-13 was renamed as the forefather of "Israel" (Genesis 32:28).

    And many Israelites had received mercy by becoming Christians even in the time of the apostle Paul (Romans 11:1-5).

    Note that it has never been said that the mistaken Hindu concept of "maya" can't coexist with the mistaken Hindu concept of "samsara".

    Also, the latter simply means (under mistaken Hindu doctrine) that the unreal material realm (maya) is also evil, for it involves continual suffering through continual reincarnation (samsara).

    Buddhism and Gnosticism (the future Antichrist's religion) agree with these mistaken ideas, although they use different terms to express them.

    But Christianity disagrees, based on the Bible's true doctrine.
     
  4. Wordkeeper

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    The lump of clay made into a vessel of dishonor was setup to fail. How was this done? Why did it protest that it was being blamed unfairly?

    You claimed "maya" was real else "samskara" could not be real in Hinduism. You can't deny you are changing your confused understanding.
     
  5. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    In Romans 9:21, the potter is God, and the clay is all of humanity, both Jews and Gentiles. Just as the human vessels of honor/mercy whom God has created include both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:23-24), so the human vessels of dishonor/wrath whom God has created (Romans 9:22) include both some Jews and some Gentiles, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-22, Exodus 9:12,16).

    Also, note that the same lump of clay is used to make both types of vessels (Romans 9:21).

    That is, while the Bible does not say by what criteria God determined which individuals to create as elect vessels of His mercy, and which individuals to create as nonelect vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:21-23), God's criteria were not based on any differences between individual people (Romans 3:9-12); just as, for example, King David's criteria for determining which Moabites to kill, and which to keep alive, were not based on any differences between the individual people (2 Samuel 8:2); and just as a potter's criteria for determining which part of a lump of clay to make a vessel unto honor, and which part of that same lump of clay to make another vessel unto dishonor, are not based on any differences between the two parts of that same lump of clay (Romans 9:21).

    Also, every Christian can know that he or she is elect (chosen), because Christian faith comes only to elect people (Acts 13:48b), wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2). Nonelect individuals can never believe in Jesus Christ, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), not because they are any worse than elect individuals (Romans 3:9-12), but simply because God did not choose to show them His mercy (Romans 9:15-22). Elect individuals are shown God's mercy and grace, not based on any prior good works on their part (Titus 3:5, Ephesians 2:8-9), but because God chose (elected) them before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they had done anything at all (Romans 9:11-24).

    By original sin (Romans 5:19a), which could be based on everyone having been in some way in "the loins" of Adam when he sinned, so that everyone in some way committed sin when Adam sinned; just as Levi had been in some way in "the loins" of Abraham when Abraham gave a tithe to Melchisedec, so that Levi in some way gave a tithe to Melchisedec when Abraham did (Hebrews 7:9-10).

    Because of original sin, we are all guilty as individuals as soon as we are conceived in the womb (Psalms 51:5). So even as babies, we are sinful (Psalms 58:3, Romans 3:10). But original sin is not our only guiltiness before God. For we have all as individuals committed our own sins by our own free will (Romans 3:23,9-12). No one can master sin (Genesis 4:7b), or put to death the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:24), without the miraculous help of God's Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13b), who is given to Christians (1 Corinthians 2:12-16).

    If original sin is genetic, could it be passed on only through the male "seed", so that Jesus Christ could be conceived without original sin by being conceived without any human father (Luke 1:34-35)?

    Because it didn't understand that God yet finds fault (Romans 9:19) because double predestination does not take away the free will of nonelect people, just as it does not take away the free will of elect people. That is, God will condemn nonelect people for their own free-willed sins (James 1:13-15), which He simply chooses not to forgive, but to harden nonelect people in them (Romans 9:18-22).

    Also, it is sometimes claimed that we can't possibly have free will because of God's omniscience. That is, in Him is found all knowledge (Colossians 2:2b-3; 1 John 3:20b). He is able to declare the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), and His foreknowledge is determinate (Acts 2:23, Revelation 1:1).

    But His omniscience still coexists with His giving people free will. He still lets people choose for themselves what they are going to do (Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Isaiah 1:19-20, Philemon 1:14).

    An analogy for how people can have a meaningful free will, and yet God can already know what they are going to choose to do, would be a symphony conductor who wanted to make a film of a "Free Will Symphony" which sounded good enough to show off to the world. So he told his symphony musicians his plan, set up a movie camera in front of them, and said that each of them could start playing whatever he or she wanted for an hour. But when they all started playing, it sounded awful for the whole hour. It was utter cacophony. So the conductor sent them home and told them to come back the next day and try again. The next day sounded worse than the first. And the day after that was also bad. This went on day after day for months, until one day the most amazing sound arose from the symphony, a congeries of all of the different melodies and rhythms which was unlike anything that anyone had heard before. So the conductor kept the movie of that day, and showed it off to the world.

    But when the symphony musicians began watching the movie at its world premiere, with all of the most-famous musicians of the world seated around them in the theater, some of the symphony musicians began to squirm in their seats. For example, one of the bass players had happened to choose that day (the day that the movie was made) to just stand there and not play anything. The movie showed him eating Twix, and just staring off into space for the whole hour. And one of the violin players had just happened to choose that day to not play anything either, but to file her nails and flip through a magazine.

    After the movie was over, those two musicians, as well as some others who had been publicly mortified, filed a civil suit against the conductor for defamation of character. At the trial, they testified before the judge: "Before the movie was shown, we all had good reputations as fine musicians. Now we are the laughingstocks of the musical world. Our careers might never recover from this. The conductor knew before he showed the movie to the world that it would result in our ruin, and yet he showed it anyway. Clearly, his intent was malicious, and we seek damages".

    But then the conductor testified: "Your honor, I honestly had no malice toward these musicians. The procedure of making the film was quite random. We made scores of different films, and in many of them, these musicians played brilliantly. But the sound of the symphony as a whole on those days was unbearable to listen to, so those films had to be rejected. It was just by chance that the one day which sounded wonderful, they happened to have made fools of themselves by their own free will. They themselves chose to act that way that day. I didn't make them do anything".

    The judge agreed and dismissed the case. He told the musicians: "I'm sorry, but you don't really have a legal leg to stand on. For you knew that the conductor was making a film of that day, and that the plan was to show it off to the world if it sounded good. It is your own fault that you chose to act the way that you did that day" (cf. James 1:13-15).

    Similar to this analogy, before God created the world, He could have reviewed an infinite number of different threads (as it were) of all the possible free-willed sequences of events which could occur in the world, based on all of the possible choices each individual could make during his or her lifetime. For example, in one thread, right after God created Adam, Adam could have chosen first to walk around the south side of the Garden of Eden, while in another thread, Adam chose first to walk around the north side, and in another he chose first just to sit on the grass and look at the trees, and so on through all of the different possibilities for his first choice, and then through all of the different possibilities for all of his subsequent choices, and then through all of the possible choices made by everyone else from the beginning of the world to the end of it. After reviewing the infinite number of threads of all the possible sequences of free-willed choices, God could have chosen to create, to bring into actual existence, that one thread which would give Him the best opportunity to eternally show both His mercy and His holy wrath (Romans 9:22-23).

    Also similar to the movie analogy is the scientific idea of the "block universe", meaning that time, from the viewpoint of physics in itself (that is, outside of how humans happen to experience time), there is no arrow of time: The past, present, and future of all space in the universe exist as one block of a four-dimensional space-time. So the past still exists, and the future already exists. This is similar to how all of the frames of a movie, all its moments of time, exist at the same time in one reel of film (or in one data file), and yet we humans happen to experience a movie only one frame at a time, and in one direction. Also, with regard to the "block universe", quantum-level experiments have shown that the future determines the past as much as the past determines the future. So from the viewpoint of Christians, this means that they can pray for God's will to be done in the past, just as they can pray for it to be done in the future. For example, if they remember a close call in their past when they just barely escaped having a car accident, they can presently pray that God would keep them from having that accident, and this could help them to avoid it. That is, they could have avoided it because years later they prayed to avoid it.

    No, that claim was never made. For both can be unreal and evil, like a nightmare.

    But this is only under Hinduism, and its daughter religions of Buddhism and Gnosticism (the religion of the future Antichrist).

    These are false religions, contradicted by the truth of God's Holy Bible.
     
  6. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Wrong. If you stick to the context of the passage, a very different conclusion is reached. The lump of clay is God’s People, one part, sheep of the Jewish flock, being made into a vessel of dishonour, and the other part, sheep of another flock, Gentiles, being made into a vessel of honor:

    Romans 9:30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.

    Paraphrase
    Romans 9:30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, who never had any promises of being justified, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, who chased the promise of becoming justified, empowered to be blessings to the world, meant for Abraham’s seed, have not attained their goal, because of the veil that covered their eyes, the vague promise from God.

    This means that Gentiles were never shown a way to become empowered , so never attempted it, but left it to God because He was sovereign had mercy on whoever He decided to have mercy, faith being seen as not murmuring, leaving it to God being a very loyal attitude.

    Israel was shown a way, that the seed of Abraham would become a blessing to the world, and concluded, not surprisingly, it meant her. God knew they would make this obvious mistake, it was so easy to fail to understand the truth, because the wording was so vague. Naturally, Israel, which suffered for making the mistake, because she was obsessed because of the promise, was angry for being faulted for making the error.

    Wrong. The doctrine of original sin was formed because of a mistake of Augustine who didn’t know Greek well, and wrongly translated Romans 5:12 as “in whom all sinned”, when the right version is “because of which all sinned”.

    The way God caused Israel to fail was in not clarifying that the seed was Christ, not Israel. It was an easy mistake, so Israel could really not be blamed.

    Wrong. See above.

    The exchange went like this:

    Wordkeeper said in post #339:Hinduism believes that the material world is imaginary, does not exist, not that it is evil.

    Bible+2:No, it does believe that it is evil. Otherwise, Samsara would be good, instead of entailing suffering.


    In other words you claimed Hinduism taught that maya, the material world was real, because the aim of Hinduism was to avoid the evil of samsara, which was also real.

    You also claimed that the idea that maya was unreal which is believed by Hindus is erroneous.

    Its clear that no religion teaches that the material world is unreal. They teach that matter is real and evil, and the spirit is good, and the aim of these religions is to free the spirit from the evil material body so that it can go back home, enter into a safe place.

    In other words, you stated both views. The bottom line is that anything which does not exist is unreal. Thoughts are unreal. It is the action of thinking which can be evil or good, depending on intention.
     
  7. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    No, for Jews can also become Christians (Romans 11:1-5).

    And Pharaoh was part of neither flock, yet he was one of the vessels of dishonor/wrath (Romans 9:17-22).

    Romans 9:30-32 simply means that by the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, no one will be justified, not even Jews (Acts 13:39).

    The doctrine of original sin is Romans 5:19a.

    Note that it's both (Galatians 3:29).

    Also, compare John 15:5a, which refers to the body of Jesus Christ, of which all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are a part (1 Corinthians 12:13). The connection between them being part of the vine of the body of Christ, and them also being part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), is that the salvation which all Christians have in Christ comes only through the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

    Note that nothing that was said claimed that maya is real.

    For something can be both unreal and involve suffering, such as a nightmare.

    Of course it is, in that "maya" refers to the material world, which the Bible shows is very good (Genesis 1:31a).

    Hinduism, Buddhism, and Gnosticism do.

    They say that it's not only evil, but also unreal, like a bad dream from which one can "awake" through "enlightenment".

    No, they are real if they're about real things, which for those religions are "enlightened" thoughts about that which is purely-spiritual.

    The whole aim of these religions is to change one's thoughts from being about that which is unreal (maya) to that which is real (Brahman).

    In doing so, one frees oneself from samsara.

    But this is all Satanic garbage, contradicted by God's Holy Bible.
     
  8. Wordkeeper

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    We are discussing who are the sheep of the first flock and who the sheep of another flock. In the old covenant there were no Christians, only Jews and Gentiles.

    Paul was using Pharoah as an example of God withholding mercy wherever He wanted to with hold mercy. God withheld mercy from an individual, Pharoah, just like He with held mercy from a nation, Israel.

    This is why we must be clear what was the exact complaint of Israel.

    Israel was told the blessing to the world was Abraham's seed. It was never made clear that the seed of Abraham would be identified as a single person, and that person would not be one who observed works of the Law, circumcision and dietary laws, but was faithful. This was made clear by Paul, who proved it by showing that “seed” was singular and it was the result of a promise, faith, like Isaac and not a result of human effort, like Ishmael.

    Since Israel made this easy mistake, because the interpretation was veiled, she complained, “Why blame us, why tie us to the penalty? “

    This is very clear from the text of Romans 9:30-32.

    Quote
    Augustine of Hippo (354-430) was a great thinker and church leader. As a young man he had left his Christian background and become a Manichaean, a follower of an anti-Christian dualistic religion; eventually he came back to the Christian faith. But he was not a great linguist. He could speak and understand well only his native Latin, not Greek. And so for his understanding of the Bible he had to rely on translations into Latin.

    Doug Chaplin has recently explained how in Romans 5:12

    Augustine took Paul’s phrase “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” following the Vulgate “in quo omnes peccaverunt” to be “in whom [Adam] all sinned”.

    (The Greek can be transliterated ef’ ho pantes hemarton.) Well, Augustine didn’t actually use the Vulgate, which was being translated during his lifetime, but the sometimes not very accurate Old Latin translations. But his Latin version seems to have been similar to the Vulgate here. Doug continues:

    the Augustinian interpretation of Paul’s “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” as meaning “in whom all sinned” makes it the most disastrous preposition in history. All modern translations agree that its proper meaning is “because.”

    More precisely, “the most disastrous preposition” is ἐφ᾽ ef’, a contracted form of epi meaning “on”. The Greek phrase ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ef’ ho literally means “on which”, or possibly “on whom”, but is commonly used to mean “because”, or perhaps “in that”. The problem is that the Latin rendering of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ, in quo, is ambiguous between “in which” and “in whom” (I’m not sure if it can also mean simply “because” or “in that”), and Augustine understood it as meaning “in whom”, i.e. “in Adam”.

    So, according to Augustine all sinned “in Adam”, which he understood as meaning that because Adam sinned every other human being, each of his descendants, is counted as a sinner. This is his doctrine of “original sin”, that every human is born a sinner and deserves death because of it. He may have taken up this idea because it agreed with his former Manichaean theology. This teaching is fundamental to most Protestant as well as Roman Catholic teaching today. For example, it underlies the Protestant (not just Calvinist) teaching of total depravity, that the unsaved person can do nothing good, a teaching for which there is little biblical basis apart from Augustine’s misunderstanding which was followed by Calvin.

    http://gentlewisdom.org/augustines-mistake-about-sin/

    ...............

    Quote
    Though Augustine was convinced by the arguments of his earlier patristic peers, he made use of the apostle Paul’s letters, especially the one to the Romans, to develop his own ideas on original sin and guilt. Today, however, it is accepted that Augustine, who had never mastered the Greek language, misread Paul in at least one instance by using an inadequate Latin translation of the Greek original.

    In Romans 5, Paul addresses the matter of sin. In verse 12 he states, “Therefore . . . sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned” (NRSV). Later in the chapter, Paul juxtaposes the sin of Adam with the righteousness of Christ: “Just as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous” (Romans 5:19). In contrast to his contemporary theologians, Augustine drew from his reading of these scriptures that sin was passed biologically from Adam to all his descendants through the sexual act itself, thus equating sexual desire with sin. But why should he have reached this interpretation when marital sexual relations in Jewish society at the time of Christ and Paul were considered honorable and good?

    Augustine’s outlook on sex was distorted by ideas from the world outside the Bible. Because so much philosophy was based on dualism, in which the physical was categorized as evil but the spiritual as good, some philosophers idealized the celibate state. Sexual relations were physical and therefore evil.

    Augustine’s association with Neoplatonic philosophers led him to introduce their outlook within the church. This had its effect in the development of doctrine. For example, Jesus was considered immaculately conceived—without sin in that His Father was God. But because His mother, Mary, had a human father, she suffered the effect of original sin. In order to present Jesus Christ as a perfect offspring without any inherited sin from either parent, the church had to find a way to label Mary as sinless. They did this by devising the doctrine of her immaculate conception, though this inevitably leads to further questions.

    http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=227

    Paul said it isn't. The text says seed not seeds. And Christians are only seed when they are IN Christ, the righteousness of God, not IN Israel, the righteousness of their own.

    2 Corinthians 5:21He made Him who knew no sin to be a sin offering on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

    See above.
    Thoughts aren't real. They can't be sensed by any of the five senses. Any religion which teaches that the material world is unreal and yet has attributes that can be observed is incoherent. So no religion teaches it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  9. Bible2+

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    Jesus Christ's sheep "not of this fold" (John 10:16) are elect Gentiles, who through faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel are brought into "this fold" (John 10:16) of Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Galatians 3:29). So all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, become "one fold" (John 10:16), which is Jesus' one body/the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13), which is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This requires that the Gospel be preached to everyone (Mark 16:15), not just to Jews.

    Jesus Christ's sheep whom He died to save (John 10:11,14-15) are elect individuals (1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Peter 4:1), whether Jews or Gentiles, those who are able to believe in Him (John 10:27) and who will believe in Him at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b), as opposed to nonelect individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who can never believe in Him (John 8:42-47) because they are not His sheep (John 10:26).

    No, for Israelites can receive God's mercy (Romans 11:1-5).

    The Bible teaches that married sexual relations aren't evil (Hebrews 13:4a).

    Also, if Christians can handle receiving the gift of celibacy, instead of ever getting married (1 Corinthians 7:7-8, Matthew 19:12b), celibacy is a good thing (1 Corinthians 7:1). It is a great blessing because it allows Christians to devote themselves completely to serving Jesus Christ without distraction (1 Corinthians 7:32-35). Yet Jesus is still spiritually the husband of all Christians (2 Corinthians 11:2), whether they are celibate or married.

    Also, in Matthew 19:10-12, Jesus Christ is agreeing with His disciples that it is better for a Christian not to get married, if a Christian can handle being celibate (1 Corinthians 7:7-9). Jesus used eunuchs (castrated men) to represent those Christians who give up marriage (even without being castrated), so that they can serve Jesus without distraction (1 Corinthians 7:32-35, Revelation 14:4).

    Note that Christians can be in Christ and in Israel at the same time (Romans 11:1), just as Christians can be in Christ and still be Jews (Acts 22:3).

    Neither can the invisible God, and yet He is real.

    Also, what do you think "sensed" means but "thought"?

    That is, without conscious thought, how would we even know that we have any senses?

    Materialists think that consciousness can involve only that which is physical, and that it arises by having a certain number of neuronal connections in one's brain. So some scientists could be trying to create a supercomputer with enough (perhaps a trillion) neural network connections, so that (they hope) it will become conscious. But the Bible shows that humans are more than just physical bodies (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And human souls can have consciousness outside of their bodies, whether their bodies are still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4), or have died (Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:22b-23). Also, angels have consciousness, even though they can be referred to simply as "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).

    So consciousness per se is not something which requires a certain number of neuronal connections, but can be based on something even more fundamental: spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23). All consciousness being ultimately based on spirit would make sense. For God is an infinite Spirit and an infinite consciousness (John 4:24, Psalms 139:7-10, Jeremiah 23:24). And if spirit is the same as consciousness, then every kind of created thing can have some consciousness (Revelation 5:13, Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20). For everything exists within God (Acts 17:28), having been brought into and maintained in existence by God's Spirit (Psalms 104:30).

    A scientific way to think of this would be that the relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. That is, just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc², which means that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by, for example, the equation s=ec³, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, to form each tiny photon of energy. And if all matter is based on energy, and all energy is based on spirit, and all spirit is consciousness, then all matter is ultimately based on consciousness, and so all matter can have some consciousness. This would explain how a puff of wind, a wave of water, a tree, or a mountain, can obey a human command (Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), and how every kind of created thing can worship God (Revelation 5:13, Psalms 148, Luke 19:40). It would also explain how the simple act of conscious observation can affect the results of quantum-level experiments.

    Also, materialist humans desiring to create a machine-consciousness could merely result in their own slavery to that machine. That is, the desire to expand artificial intelligence through "machine learning" in the pursuit of more and more profits by major internet and computer corporations, with their increasingly "smart assistants", could ultimately result in the slavery of all of mankind to a single, seemingly-omniscient machine, which could be the future "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15).

    And this enslaving machine-intelligence having begun its development in the human pursuit of corporate profits will only be further proof that:

    1 Timothy 6:10 . . . the love of money is the root of all evil . . .

    Hinduism, Buddhism, and Gnosticism (the religion of the future Antichrist) teach it, because it is not incoherent (even though it is mistaken). For unreal things can have attributes that can be observed, such as observing something in a dream.
     
  10. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Wrong. God speaks to all men, both Jews and Gentiles. However, not all israel is israel, not all Jews are Jews. Those who are clean in Israel are Jews. Similarly only those who are clean in the flock of the Gentiles are God’s sheep. They have rejected the humanity that exists, say they are sojourners, foreigners in it, alienated by it. and God has prepared a Holy City for them, a New Man, which they see when God draws them to Christ. That's why the text says “My sheep know my voice”. Jesus’s message is agreeable to them, His principles are not shallow. Deep speaks to deep.

    Because God has a covenant with Israel, so that righteousness may be observed, bread must be given to the Children. However, the bread is offensive to Israel, because she always thought that she was the seed. God causes Israel to be the vessel of dishonor by revealing that Christ is the seed. The world will not be blessed by becoming Jews, observing works of the Law. The world will become blessed by being faithful to God, like the Gentiles! Faith not works! Loyalty not circumcision. Why did God make Israel a vessel of dishonor. So that all men would be shown mercy. Technically, the Old Covenant made Israel righteous, But becoming transgressors, by not believing God’s revelation made Israel unrighteous. This had two results. Israel had to receive mercy to become righteous. Israel's refusal to receive mercy meant Gentiles were given the Kingdom of God:

    Jeremiah 18:1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, 2“Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” 3Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make.

    5Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, 6“Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7“At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9“Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11“So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the LORD, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.”’ 12“But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’

    13“Therefore thus says the LORD,
    ‘Ask now among the nations,
    Who ever heard the like of this?
    The virgin of Israel
    Has done a most appalling thing.

    ,,,,,,,,,

    Matthew 21:33
    Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey. 34“When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. 35“The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. 36“Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them. 37“But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38“But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39“They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40“Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?” 41They said to Him, “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons.”

    42Jesus said to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures,
    ‘THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
    THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
    THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
    AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES’?

    43“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. 44“And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.”


    God’s mercy is in the fact that she still exists, unlike Sodom and Gomorrah:

    Romans 9:29And just as Isaiah foretold, "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."

    Augustine , who created the doctrine of Original Sin, taught that all sexual relations were evil.

    Romans 11:1 says God did not make israel like sodom and Gomorrah, vanish without a trace. Jews still exist who are circumcised at birth. However, who is a Jew? He is one who observes the Law. So when the date comes to make atonement, in the Temple, and that Jew does not make atonement, his circumcision becomes uncircumcision. The Jew becomes a Gentile.

    God can be seen, so He is real:

    John 14:9Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

    Show me a source that claims the material realm is not real in Gnosticism.
     
  11. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Both, ultimately (James 2:24).

    For initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

    He didn't (Romans 11:1-5).

    Also, just as all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus Christ (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish Christians remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile Christians have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), so that they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This does not mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile Christian becomes a genetic Jew, but means that Gentile Christians, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

    Note that not everyone will be saved from hell (Matthew 25:41,46, Matthew 13:38-42), but only a relatively few people (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14), compared with all of humanity.

    No, for Christian Jews (1 Corinthians 12:13) are also given the Kingdom of God (Hebrews 12:28, Romans 14:17).

    Romans 5:19a is the doctrine of original sin.

    Or he who was born a Jew (Acts 22:3).

    He is real even when He is not seen (John 1:18a).

    John 1:18a and John 4:12a mean that no one has ever seen God the Father Himself (John 5:37, John 6:46). But people saw a picture of God the Father when they saw Jesus Christ at His first coming. For Jesus said: "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9). Jesus is the "image" of the invisible God the Father (Colossians 1:15).

    Is there a source that says it is, compared with the Pleroma?
     
  12. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Faith (meaning Loyalty) saves, not Works (meaning Works of the Law), but the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant, not Judaism. Loyalty includes belief AND action.

    Romans 11:1-5 doesn't say God didn't make Israel a vessel of dishonour. It says God didn´t make Israel disappear like Sodom and Gomorrah.

    Romans 11:1-5 Amplified

    Romans 11:1I say then, God has not rejected (like Sodom and Gomorrah, who were rejected and vanished without a trace) His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.”(here Elijah wants Israel to be destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah) 4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” (these are the real Jews, who have observed the Law, the minor points AND the more important points, justice , mercy and righteousness. Those who have bowed their knees to Baal are those who only follow the minor points of the law, circumcision and food laws, but use unrighteous ways to gather treaure that perishes, because they loved money, Baal. They wanted Pagans to become Jews because they were proud of their special status, and wanted to be looked up to) 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’sgracious choice (overlooking disobedience, still believing the seed is Israel, not Christ, because whenever the Law is read, a veil covers their eyes) 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. (the present remnant observe the Law, which is transgression, because God has declared the Old Covenant obsolete. Grace is given by God because of His mercy, not because they observed the Old covenant, but because they were loyal, observed both the minor as well as the more important parts of the Old Covenant. In the future, the remnant will stop believing that they are the seed and will accept that the Old Covenant is obsolete)

    By all i meant that the promise given to Abraham is now available to even Gentiles. In the Old Covenant, only Jews were saved, could have a purposeful life, become blessings to the world, the promise given to Abraham, by entering Rest, by observing Law, working, like hired hands. In the New Covenant, all peoples, not only Jews could become blessings to the world by entering Rest by being loyal, through diifferent ways in different situations, to Christ.

    Galatians 3:13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON ATREE”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


    The text is very clear that the Kingdom is given to Gentiles:

    Galatians 3:14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


    And the Kingdom was taken away from the Jews:

    Matthew 21:43Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.



    19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.



    Romans 5:19 does not support the teaching that we sinned IN Adam. It does support the teaching that Adam disobeyed, because of which Law came into force, and men siinned because with law appearing, there IS transgression.


    Romans 4:15Because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.


    But not all Israel is Israel, not only those who do bothe the minor as well as the important points of law. High fidelity Jews, not works of the Law, not halakhah Jews, who only have circumcision and dietary laws.

    Romans 9:6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIMEI WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

    14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

    19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

    25As He says also in Hosea,

    “I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’

    AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”

    26“AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’

    THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.”

    27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THEEARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.”

    29And just as Isaiah foretold,

    “UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,

    WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”

    30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.


    It´s very clear, Israel has been cut off, and Gentiles are now the People of God. Before you couldn´t become part of the People of God unless you were circumcised, but now you can. Even Jews who are cut off, who are living like Gentiles amongst the Gentiles, can be called. Gentiles who ignorantly observe the Old Covenant, which is obsolete, are trying to seek a righteousness which is made by man, instead of a righteousness which is a gift from God, so they are also cut off from the People of God, Christ is of no benefit to them. The Covenant is made with Gentiles, so all must enter as Gentiles, even the Houses of Israel and Judah which are living like Gentiles amongst Gentiles..

    The New Covenant ensures God is seen and heard by all, not just by the disciples who saw Christ:

    Acts 2:17AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;

    There is no need to show a source for a statement which is self evident, axiomatic. The onus is on you to show which worldview claiming to be coherent makes a nonsensical statement that the material realm is unreal.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
  13. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that both save, ultimately (James 2:24).

    The New Covenant is still Judaism. That's why Jesus Christ's Gospel of salvation goes to Jews first (Romans 1:16, Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24, Acts 3:26), and salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22b). For salvation is of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Christian Gentiles are grafted into Israel so that they can partake of the salvation offered by God to Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16). And all Christians, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    Note that faith and works can be distinguished (James 2:24).

    And faith does not automatically produce good works.

    For example, Matthew 25:26,30 shows that even someone who was a servant of Jesus Christ can ultimately lose his salvation because of unrepentant laziness. One way that a Christian could desire to become lazy without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term), that he continues in it over time until his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12). Love for God means choosing to do what God says to do (1 John 5:3). So if one's love for God grows cold (Matthew 24:12), one will no longer choose to do what God says to do (John 14:24), meaning that one will become lazy in God's eyes (Matthew 25:26,30).

    No scripture says that He did.

    Because it's not a vessel of dishonor (Romans 9:4-5).

    Meaning not "only" to Jews (Romans 4:12). Not that it isn't given to Jews. For Christian Jews (1 Corinthians 12:13) are also given the Kingdom of God (Hebrews 12:28, Romans 14:17).

    Matthew 21:43 is addressing non-Christian, nonelect Jews, whom God does not consider to be the true Israel (Romans 9:6-24), or true Jews (Romans 2:28-29, Philippians 3:3), or true children of Abraham or of God, but the children of Satan (John 8:39-47, Revelation 3:9, Revelation 2:9b); just as all nonelect people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of Satan (Matthew 13:38-42, cf. 1 John 3:8-10).

    The nation in Matthew 21:43b is the Church (1 Peter 2:9), which includes both Jewish and Gentile Christians (1 Corinthians 12:13). And this nation will come to include those elect Jews who will become Christians at any point in the future, including at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 11:25-29).

    That is, in Romans 11:25-29 the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who are not genetic Jews like the apostle Paul (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual, genetic Jewish Christians (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile Christians (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become Christians, they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It is the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind, while others are not (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25), in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect, genetic Jews who are not yet Christians (Romans 11:28), but who will become Christians eventually (Romans 11:26).

    When the apostle Paul says: "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of Gentile individuals have become Christians, which will not happen until near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30); just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" will not be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the second half of the future Tribulation.

    Immediately after the future Tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus Christ Himself from heaven (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all of the still-living, unsaved, elect Jews will be ashamed, and weep, and become Christians, when they see Jesus, and realize that He truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the Church at that time, just as when Jews become Christians now they become part of the Church. For there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    And the Jews who will become Christians at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will all become part of the Church by receiving some measure of God's Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as Jewish Christians today become part of the Church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both Jewish and Gentile Christians become part of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    Also, if the Jews who will become Christians at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming had been religious Jews, they will not continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus Christ's Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52) of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the second covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

    Also, the fullness of the Gentiles coming in during the future Tribulation does not mean that no Gentiles will be added to the Church during the subsequent Millennium, because they will be (Isaiah 66:19-20). For "fullness" does not have to mean "no more after that". For example, even after a cup has been filled with wine, more wine can be added to it, so that the "cup runneth over" (Psalms 23:5b). Also, it does not matter that the new Christians during the Millennium will be added to the Church/bride (of Ephesians 4:4-6, Ephesians 5:30-32) after the marriage of the Church to Jesus Christ occurred at His Second Coming (Revelation 19:7). For as many husbands have discovered, a bride can increase in size sometime after her wedding.
     
  14. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    It does, just as we all die in Adam (1 Corinthians 15:22). For everyone was in some way in "the loins" of Adam when he sinned, so that everyone in some way committed sin when Adam sinned; just as Levi had been in some way in "the loins" of Abraham when Abraham gave a tithe to Melchisedec, so that Levi in some way gave a tithe to Melchisedec when Abraham did (Hebrews 7:9-10).

    No, for sin and death reigned in the fallen Adam even before the law (Romans 5:13-14).

    That's right.

    For all genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, is not based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

    All Jewish and Gentile Christians are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Jewish and Gentile Christians are heirs of all of the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

    In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", the apostle Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26), and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

    No, for there are Christian Jews as well as Christian Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:13). So only "some" (in the sense of not all) Jews are cut off from the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17a) because of their unbelief in Jesus Christ (Romans 11:20) and His saving New Covenant Passover death on the Cross for our sins (1 Corinthians 5:7b, Matthew 26:28). Compare the Old Covenant cutting off of only some Israelites from Israel if they failed to keep the Old Covenant Passover (Numbers 9:13).

    Only elect Gentiles, just as only elect Jews (Romans 9:23-24).

    For there are nonelect Gentiles, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-22), just as there are nonelect Jews (John 8:42-47).

    No, for Christian Jews enter as Jews (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    In Acts 2:17 the original Greek word (G3956) translated as "all" can mean "all manner of" (Acts 10:12), just as in Joel 2:28 the original Hebrew word (H3605) translated as "all" can mean "all manner of" (Leviticus 19:23). Neither word has to mean absolutely all. All manner of Christians receive Holy Spirit baptism, just as all manner of people become Christians (Revelation 5:9b).

    That is, besides getting water baptized, Christians can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment that they become Christians. That is why the apostle Paul at one point asked some Christians: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

    Christians usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism will not result in the speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many Christians have not yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they have not yet asked for it, under the principle of: "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many Christians have not yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say that it is no longer in effect. Christians can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

    Note that if that were true, then you could ask an atheist if he has seen and heard God, and he would have to say yes.

    But of course he will say no. For few people have seen or heard God, compared with all of humanity.

    But people can still know that God exists by simply seeing everything else that exists (Romans 1:20, Psalms 19:1-4). For the universe could not have created itself from nothing by physics, because of the first law of thermodynamics. So something outside of physics had to have created the universe. The term spirit is used to refer to something which exists outside of physics. So what created the universe was a spirit (John 4:24, John 1:3). And this had to be an uncreated spirit, because nothing, not even a spirit, can create itself from nothing. For to create itself, it would have to already exist. So just by being able to see the universe, people have no excuse for denying the existence of an uncreated spirit, who is known as God (Romans 1:20, John 4:24, Psalms 19:1-4). And God must have eternal power (Romans 1:20), for the first law of thermodynamics requires that even the physical energy in the universe is eternal.

    Because knowing that God exists is the only reasonable response to seeing the existence of the universe (Romans 1:20), when educated and intelligent people refuse to admit that God exists, this is only because they are intentionally choosing to be unreasonable (2 Thessalonians 3:2), choosing to be foolish, regarding God's existence, because of their human pride, their unthankfulness to God, and their desire to continue in sinful actions (Romans 1:21-22, Psalms 14:1). But there is no salvation in simply believing that God exists (James 2:19). Believing in Jesus Christ, the human/divine Son of God, and His suffering and dying on the Cross for our sins, and His rising physically from the dead on the third day, is the only way for people to have their sins forgiven, so that they will not have to go to hell when they die (John 3:16,36, Romans 3:25; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    Note that it isn't nonsensical, even though it is mistaken. For a dream is unreal, even though we see it.
     
  15. Wordkeeper

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    The Law of liberty and love allows the situation to decide if works are needed. In Judaism, works of the Law, circumcision, food laws, etc. are compulsory. In Christianity, to those who were Jews we can become Jews, to the Gentiles we can speak as Gentiles, however, justice, mercy and love must be believed in and shown when it is needed.

    God wanted to keep Israel separated from the Gentile nations because He wanted to avoid temptation to serve Baal from affecting her. He used laws that declared things clean and the unclean to make it difficult for jews to contact Gentiles. In the New Covenant, the Gentiles have been called God’s People. Which nations should they be separated from?




    That’s why I used the word belief, action and loyalty. A person can have belief but may not act. However a loyal person will always act when it is needed and when it is possible. This is the law of liberty and love.
     
  16. Wordkeeper

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    Romans 9:19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

    (Verdict for the Gentiles)
    25As He says also in Hosea,
    “I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
    AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”
    26“AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’
    THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.”

    (Verdict for Israel)
    27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.”

    29And just as Isaiah foretold,
    “UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
    WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”

    Israel was not made to disappear because God preserved a remnant chosen by grace, chosen because they didn’t bow their knee to Baal. If it was by perfect observance of the law, which is what was required, it wouldn’t have been by grace, leniency, because then grace wouldn’t have been grace, you’d have had to define grace in a different way. So the Israel which exists is because of God's kindness, not because they were more righteous than Sodom or Gomorrah. The remnant are still in transgression, not observing law perfectly, but more important, also not believing Christ is the seed, but still believing they are the seeds.

    The text doesn’t say in Galatians 3:14 that the Kingdom is given to Israel. The text does say in Matthew 21:41 that the Kingdom is taken away from Israel. It also says it is not known when it will be given back in Acts 1:4-9

    Acts 1:4Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me;5for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

    6So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

    We must determine what is meant by Jews and if they retain their Jewishness when they become Christians. It has already been stated that not all Israel is Israel. The true Jew was one who observed both the minor points as well the more important parts of the Law. They are the real Israel. The ones who are not Israel are the ones who only observed the minor parts of the Law. So Israel is not exterminated like Sodom and Gomorrah. But God set aside, identified, the remnant not because of obedience, but because of grace, leniency. Otherwise grace would not be grace. So Israel exists, but not Judaism, where eternal life, the Kingdom of God, rest, used to be available for entering. Now the Kingdom of God is available for entering, not in Judaism, but in Christianity.

    To recap. Israel exists because a remnant is identified who have observed the lesser as well as the greater parts of the law, high fidelity Jews, true Israel.

    The remnant are identified by grace, not obedient, because no Jew has ever fulfilled the Law, perfectly obeyed it.

    However, they are a vessel of dishonor, because by their transgression, not believing in the righteousness of God, Christ, but in their own righteousness, Judaism, Gentiles could now enter.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
  17. Wordkeeper

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    It’s clear that no Jews exists because being a Jew means being someone who observes all of the requirements of a covenant, which isn’t possible because the Old Covenant has been closed and the Temple has been made desolate, so that even though those who claim the Old Covenant exists cannot observe it because there is no infrastructure for that observance.

    Also, you aren't in the Kingdom, which is a present event, not a future one, because you haven't taken up the challenge to build a tower, or asked for terms of peace.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
  18. Wordkeeper

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    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 does not say we sinned in Adam. Adam was created with the ability not to sin, not because he couldn’t covet, because he could and did covet, but because where there is no law there is no transgression. It says that those who were separated from God, because of being in Adam after he fell, with the ability to sin, could not function the way God had created humanity to function, however those in Christ can. It’s very clear that spiritual life is being talked about, not physical life, because when we accept Christ, we are already physically alive.

    And Augustine used "in whom" when he should have used "because of which".

    Law comes into force when a person can tell right from wrong. That’s why in case of the insane and minors, where they can’t tell right from wrong, where there is no law, where law does not apply, there is no transgression.

    Romans 9:6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIMEI WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.”

    The text explains that Jews, members of the Old Covenant, which was born because of human effort, like Ishmael, are not the children of God, but Christians, members of the New Covenant, which was born because of a promise from God, like Isaac, are the real children of God.

    The Jews are Ishmael, Christians are Isaac! The comparison is not between Jews and Gentiles, it is between Jews and Christians. The children of the bondswoman, Abraham’s child from Hagar through human effort, the Old Covenant, Judaism, are Jews. The children of the freewoman, Abraham’s child from Sarah through God’s promise to him, the New Covenant, Christianity, are Christians. The bondswoman and her children have been sent off.

    Only elect Gentiles, just as only elect Jews (Romans 9:23-24).

    For there are nonelect Gentiles, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-22), just as there are nonelect Jews (John 8:42-47).[/quote]

    No more Jews are present, only Christians, in the People of God.

    All, sheep of Israel and sheep of the rest of the world, enter, and become Christians They don’t become Jews.

    See above.

    So you admit men can hear and see God.

    You contradicted the Post #369 in which you claim real things can’t be seen:

    Nonsensical and mistaken are the same. No worldview can state that the material world is unreal and not be laughed off the face of the earth.
     
  19. Bible2+

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    Works are always needed, ultimately (James 2:24, Romans 2:6-8).

    That's right, with regard to Old Covenant Israel.

    For in Ephesians 2:15, "the enmity" which has now been abolished included the "unclean"-Gentile concept of the Old Covenant (Ezra 9:11-14), which was removed under the New Covenant (Acts 10:28) on the Cross of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:11-19).

    *******

    Romans 9:25-26 applies to Jewish and Gentile elect people (Romans 9:24-26), who, while they are non-Christians (Romans 11:28), are not God's people insofar as they are not grafted into the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:20). But when they become Christians, they become God's people insofar as they get grafted into the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

    The subsequent context of Romans 9:25-26 shows that there the apostle Paul is thinking of "Israel" in the sense of Jews who mistakenly think that they can attain to righteousness by keeping the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 9:30 to 10:13).

    Neither does it deny it. For Christian Jews (1 Corinthians 12:13) are also given the Kingdom of God (Hebrews 12:28, Romans 14:17).

    Not all of Israel (Romans 11:1-5).

    The question in Acts 1:6 is answered elsewhere in the Bible (Acts 3:20-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

    That is, regarding "restoring the kingdom" to Israel (Acts 1:6), it means restoring the kingdom of Israel in a physical way in which it will bear fruit (Matthew 21:43), which will not happen until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Acts 3:20-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

    Presently, the Kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the Kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then forever on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-8), as in a new surface for the earth.

    Jesus Christ's Kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at His future, Second Coming, He will sit on the earthly throne of King David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in His humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' Second Coming, He will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And He will bring salvation to all of the still-living, non-Christian elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, non-Christian elect Jews) will become Christians when they see Jesus at His Second Coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the Church at that time. For there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    After Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected Church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the Church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

    Of course they do (Acts 22:3).

    Both exist. For Christianity is New Covenant Judaism. For the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31). Christian Gentiles are grafted into Israel so that they can partake of the salvation offered by God to Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16). And all Christians, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    Regarding "no Jew has ever fulfilled the Law", see Luke 1:6.

    Regarding "the remnant are identified by grace", that's right (Galatians 2:16).

    The two verses are compatible, based on Galatians 3:19-25.

    Only nonelect individuals are vessels of dishonor/wrath, and they include both some Jews and some Gentiles, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-22).

    Elect Jews are vessels of honor/mercy, just as elect Gentiles are (Romans 9:23-24).

    *******

    Including the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31, Matthew 26:28).

    *******

    Romans 5:19a does.

    1 Corinthians 15:22b is referring to future resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:21b).

    But 1 Corinthians 15:22b does not (as is sometimes claimed) assure a resurrection to eternal life.

    For whereas even non-Christians will be resurrected (Revelation 20:12-15; 1 Corinthians 15:22), this will be to their damnation (John 5:29b) in the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone, with Satan and his fallen angels (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

    Note that sin and death reigned in the fallen Adam even before the law came into force (Romans 5:13-14).

    And that's why infants have died, even before the law, and even before they could tell right from wrong.

    There is still original sin (Romans 5:19a), and so mortality (Romans 6:23).

    Otherwise, why are they mortal? Why do they still die?

    Only Old Covenant Jews are Ishmael, while New Covenant Jews (1 Corinthians 12:13), along with New Covenant Gentiles, are Isaac (Galatians 4:21-31).

    For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:21-25). So those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, Abraham's son by a bondmaid (Galatians 4:22), who was cast out (Galatians 4:30), while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:28), Abraham's son by a freewoman (Galatians 4:22,31), who became his heir (Galatians 4:30b).

    Note that Christians include both Jews (Acts 22:3) and Gentiles (Romans 16:4b).

    They do become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they undergo the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    Only some men (e.g. 1 Samuel 3; John 14:9).

    Note that it has never been said that real things can't be seen.

    Instead, it was said that it's possible for real things to be invisible, just as God the Father is invisible (1 John 4:12a).

    No, for mistaken can be sensical. For example, you could mistake one person for someone else because they look very similar.

    But nonsensical would be contrary to all sense. Such as saying that the moon is square.

    Note that Hinduism, for example, says that the material world is unreal (maya). But Hinduism has never been laughed away, even though it is mistaken.
     
  20. Wordkeeper

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    So those who cannot do works like paraplegics are barred from salvation? Those who are in a coma but can hear but can’t move are also barred? Give an example from Scripture. You cant. The correct explanation is that when action is required and possible, action must be taken. This is the law of liberty and love.The Old Covenant gave no exceptions. All laws had to be followed all the time.

    James 2:15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

    The enmity is between the clean, Jews, who are the people of God and those considered not a people of god, who are unclean, all other nations.

    This enmity broken by declaring Gentiles as clean.

    If Jews are clean, and other nations are clean, then what are Jews in the new covenant?

    That sentence is nonsensical. Why should elect Jews need to become Israel? According to your logic, elect Jews are already the true Israel. The more you post, the more you reveal your confused thinking and the more you lose your credibility.

    Actually it does deny it. False Israel only follows the minor points, food laws and tithes mint and cummin, the minimum required to identify them as Jews. The true Israel is the one that follows all God’s commandments, the minor ones as well as the more important issues of justice, mercy and faithfulness. These are considered works, must be followed perfectly to receive wages, be identified as Jews, who will be blessings to the world, by being blessed according to Deuteronomy 30. However no Gentile ever became a Jew because God blessed Israel for perfectly following the law. For if they did, then the Old Covenant was perfect and Christ need not have died in order to bring in a New Covenant. Since becoming Jewish, a clean people that was needed to be blessed by God was impossible, as Israel found out when it searched Scriptures frantically to lift the veil, unlock the secret to receive blessings and becoming blessings to the world , Israel had to become Christian, by following Gentile ways, become faithful, devoted to God, since this was the only way they could become justified, receive blessings, so that they could become blessings to the world, because that was the requirement of the new covenant.

    That text says that Israel does not become destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah. However, Israel did become desolate, an empty shell, no longer God’s People.

    So you admit the Kingdom of God is taken away from Israel.

    For your information, the Kingdom of God is not physical, it is God working in union with man to subdue Creation:

    Genesis 2:19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and He brought them to the man to see what he would name each one. And whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

    Exodus 8:19"This is the finger of God," the magicians said to Pharaoh. But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.

    Luke 11:20"But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    The New Covenant removes what is defined by being a Jew, being clean, being acceptable, and that is circumcision, food laws and socializing, ways of separation from other nations. Since Jews need not be circumcised to become included in Gpd’s People, then it means the category of Jews, a separate nationality, no longer exists.

    An illustration from Scripture:

    Jesus explains that in the New Covenant, what makes a person part of God’s people is justice, mercy and devotion to God (which the sheepp of another flock have been practicising and the goats of Israel have not: which is why when the Gentiles get the covenat,they will get the hope of the blessing. Formerly one flock never got the hope becaiuse they did not follow the covenant and the other did not get it because they did not have the covenant).

    Peter accepts this teaching, and is clean because of the words pf revelation spoken to him.

    Judas is not clean because he is interested in the power of Jesus, rather than the revelation of what the requirements of the new covenant are, like Simon Magus.

    It makes no sense to say that the Kingdom is taken away from the Old Covenant Jews and given to the New Covenant Jews. Jews are a nation. So it means that the Kingdom is taken away from the Jews and given to another People, Gentiles, all other nations.

    You also claimed the Kingdom is taken away from the non elect and given to the elect. Can you explain the mechanics of this? For example, when was the Kingdom given to the non elect?

    They were protected by the law, for following minor as well as the more important issues of the law. I don’t see in the text them becoming blessings to the world by fulfilling the law.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
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